Dutch rape victim, 17, uses legal euthanasia to end life

[horbindr]

Where do I draw the line? Peak brain development dude. If someone told me when I was a kid that I couldn't be a pokemon master I'd have tried to kill myself. How much would I have had to roll around and spit on people and cry and REEEEEEEEE before my mom was like, "aight kill this tard"???

If that ok for you? No it's not. This doctors decision was to kill a person. Many many many many many many many many other doctor's would've kept her alive, probably just for the money, but it could've given her time to get over it to the point where she didn't want to die.

yeah cause thats totally a fair comparison you are making. more realistically if you did actually try to kill yourself, the worst that would happen is a 6 month involuntary trip to a psych ward. (which is something this girl went through several times).

but more to the point: in a hypothetical case where you knew 100% certain someone wouldn't recover, you would STILL let them suffer till they are 25ish and fully developed?

[Machismo]

balance brotha, i'm like the anti-Machismo. or do you want to be the anti-Vargulf. i'll give you this one shot to choose or else i'll make the decision for you

Nah, you can choose all you want, I'll just ignore the choice.

I'll take freedom over authoritarianism... thanks.

[LiiLoSNK]

Clear proof you don't even read my posts since I never made the opposite claim.

Ahaha you said it's her choice. Which means you're fine with some teen (or maybe even younger) going to anime land as long as they made the decision themselves. Sad. Good thing the actual news came out.

[parasight]

I'd probably want to die too if I had doctors and parents that were too stupid to find effective treatment.

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

I think there is a big difference between those. Anorexics are not trying to kill themselves. I am talking about people, who saw not eating as the easiest way out of life and kept to it until the end.

tbh i didn't know this was a method people used to kill themselves. why drag it out if you're going to do it? starving yourself takes time. and yes, huge difference between the two. anorexics are similar to drug overdoses. those people don't mean to kill themselves.

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Nah, you can choose all you want, I'll just ignore the choice.

I'll take freedom over authoritarianism... thanks.

sounds good. so why do you support 17 year olds trying to commit suicide?

[Vorkreist]

She was of legal age to make the decision on her own.

Its not just her decision to make there are other rules in place for a doctor to approve it. I see you try too hard to be progressive about issues you don't understand.
Younger people especially up to 25 yr old are more susceptible to suicidal tendencies when they deal with depression hence its general practice to keep them on treatment for longer periods of time. It can take years until they recover or at least get to a point where its at least bearable. The field is also constantly evolving with new treatments being developed every year. Your idea of protecting a sick and mentally vulnerable child is to help him kill himself when they could recover and have a chance at a decent life later on.

[horbindr]

I don't know about that. She did try to commit suicide several times before. Sounds to me she had the mental fortitude to do something, rather than just throw out empty threats as a cry for help.

he does have a point though. starving yourself to death without painkillers isn't the easiest thing to do, even if you are determined.
guessing they at least gave her painkillers so it's more like a condoned suicide then a assisted suicide.

[Flurryfang]

This changes so much. I don't want to laugh at this girls death, but I do want to laugh at the amount of absolute idiots who were saying the doctors wanted to straight up kill her.

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Are you some sort of idiot? This logic is literally saying, "don't try to help anyone because they're just gonna lie! Don't put effort into someone's life if you care about them guys.".

No need for personal attacks my friend, we are just discussing things, remember?

The logic is that when people are in a position, where they don't want to live, there comes a point, where it is more likely that they will cheat themselves out of their medical imprisonment and make suicide, than them actually getting better.

I also think, in this case, that people really put a huge amount of effort into taking care of this girl, for years even. But you can't do that forever. At some point, you are just beating a dead horse. So the logic is really "Help people and put in alot of effort, but at some point, it is just a waste of resourses and in risk of breaking somebodies rights."

[zorkuus]

tbh i didn't know this was a method people used to kill themselves. why drag it out if you're going to do it? starving yourself takes time. and yes, huge difference between the two.

She did try to kill herself before, with crueler methods I assume. Maybe this time she didn't want to shock her parents?

[Flurryfang]

tbh i didn't know this was a method people used to kill themselves. why drag it out if you're going to do it? starving yourself takes time. and yes, huge difference between the two. anorexics are similar to drug overdoses. those people don't mean to kill themselves.

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sounds good. so why do you support 17 year olds trying to commit suicide?

People make alot of assumptions about dying, sometimes very wrong. I guess some think that starving is just dying slowly and quietly, just like falling asleep at some point. Its also a way to kill yourself, that is not violent, which you can hide for some time and which people have a hard time saving you from. Aside from tubing, not eating is hard to counter.

[Machismo]

tbh i didn't know this was a method people used to kill themselves. why drag it out if you're going to do it? starving yourself takes time. and yes, huge difference between the two. anorexics are similar to drug overdoses. those people don't mean to kill themselves.

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sounds good. so why do you support 17 year olds trying to commit suicide?

I support their freedom to end their own life, if that';s what they choose to do. If someone doesn't want to eat, fine... they are free to not eat. Would I recommend that she try and live? Sure. Am I going to try and forcefully stop her? Nope.

[Kumorii]

this is where i think we can start to agree. i don't like the idea of forced anything. but i will go as far as heavily influencing someone by exhausting every option that I have at my expense. her want to die is equal to my want to see someone come out of their mental dungeon and live a happy life. i would feel compelled to try to stop her up until the very second the needle went in her arm.

BUT as far as her eating goes, after a week of not eating if you put a plate of her favorite food in front of her and walked away i bet she eats. that would take some serious mental fortitude to push the plate away.

When you are depressed and so deep you don't eat its not because it's not the right food in front of you. It's because you have no drive or survival instinct to eat. Depression is essentially a chemical imbalance in the brain to make it a crass summarization. The part that tells you to eat just stops and you have no motivation to do so.

It's usually the opposite that you need mental fortitude to push yourself to eat. You try trough will to overcome the instinct that tells you to eat, which in this case, tells you not to. See it as addiction but in the opposite way.

[LiiLoSNK]

You do realize that claiming "it's not right to let people with underdeveloped brains kill themselves" is an opinion and no argument or even fact, so there is no way to prove you wrong?

What we can discuss is the fact that you are claiming the brain of a 17 year old is underdevelopped. Because there are 17 year olds that wet their bed when they have a dentist apppointment the next day, and there are 17 year old that act as CEO of a multi million dollar company.

So how can we tell which is which? Quite easy, we make a case to case examination with several professionals to tell if the 17 year old is mature enough to make that decision. And that's what happened here, and as I've already said I tend to rather believe those professionals who could have stopped the whole process anytime they felt it was right over someone who is making hypothetical arguments on the internet without having any actual knowledge of the person or the situation they are in.

According to you, financial success == brain development. My brain is offended that your brain could think this.

That's not an argument, you 17-year old brain haver. It's an objective fact that 17 is not the age a human brain gets done developing at. None of your examples mean dick, you crazy weirdo. Durrrrr there's 17 year olds that are CEO's. So what, do we all take the, the kylie jenner CEO test to understand the way to hustle other idiotic teens out of their cash for makeup?

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

Yes they do, our law says they do. So suck it up.
The girl knew what she was doing, it was her choice and you have nothing to do with that. Keep out of her personal life.

no way. not at the age of 17. no human ever has developed the reasoning skills at that age to make a life ending decision coherently. too many hormones flying around in our bodies at that age.

[Tankabbot]

if it was just the one incident i'd be onboard with you. but cause it happened twice i think there is a very real chance you are never getting back together again. i'm sure some people could, but i also think some people just can't.

And in doubt what do we do, pull the plug? At 17?

[Phon]

he does have a point though. starving yourself to death without painkillers isn't the easiest thing to do, even if you are determined.
guessing they at least gave her painkillers so it's more like a condoned suicide then a assisted suicide.

You don't really feel pain when you're starving. I've been close to dying due to it when I was sick a few years ago and couldn't eat, you're barely able to keep awake.

[Kumorii]

Ahaha you said it's her choice. Which means you're fine with some teen (or maybe even younger) going to anime land as long as they made the decision themselves. Sad. Good thing the actual news came out.

Yeah, news that confirms it was her choice.. I don't get it. She chose to end her life... Are you saying she didn't? Now I'm confused about your position lol.

[Tankabbot]

She was first molested at 11. How many YEARS is it from that to 17? You must be just trolling at this point.

IF she started getting help from the day it happen it'd be 6 years which, especially during teenagehood, count fuck all.

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

When you are depressed and so deep you don't eat its not because it's not the right food in front of you. It's because you have no drive or survival instinct to eat. Depression is essentially a chemical imbalance in the brain to make it a crass summarization. The part that tells you to eat just stops and you have no motivation to do so.

It's usually the opposite that you need mental fortitude to push yourself to eat. You try trough will to overcome the instinct that tells you to eat, which in this case, tells you not to. See it as addiction but in the opposite way.

interesting, and sad. i just wish this would have ended differently. suicide sucks, and i just know there is something out there for everyone going through that kind of depression that can turn it around. firing that willpower back up seems to be the biggest, most consistent issue across the whole spectrum of depression.

[horbindr]

And in doubt what do we do, pull the plug? At 17?

no, first you try to help.

and if that doesn't work for 5 years orso, then you start to think more about quality of life going foward rather than actually fixing the problem.

i think that's fairly standard when conditions become chronic. now sure suicide is the extreme solution to quality of life problems, but there is no reason not at least bring it up at that point given the context. (are doctors even allowed to bring it up? i think patients have to ask for it themselves.)