Classic WoW Tier sets / offspec gear itemization

[AceofH]

Man look. I dont want to argue about expansions. I just started off pointing out that Wrath was the peak. Yes, it gained what 2mill more players that TBC but they also pushed advertising around that time and it focused on Arthas. They did some dumb shit in Wrath like the easy peasy dungeons, VoA, and too much vendor gear.

"Best" expansion is subjective but Wrath WAS the player peak. Vanilla had the most engaging world. TBC FELT good in raiding and pvp. Wrath they tried to add a lot, some failed, some flew.

Im looking forward to experiencing vanilla again as some wacky spec.

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They sold 2 piece tier from vendors. TOC and ICC had vendors for the whole set.

2 million more? false. TBC finished at 11.5 million. wrath peaked at 12.5 million tops.
and again - peak doesn't mean much - if you got even 1 sub more then the next highest expanc congrats, you win.
wrath may have been the peak, but it saw very little growth compared to vanilla (8 million) and burning crusade (3.5 million).

yeah vendors sold 2 pieces. you could also get 2 pieces from vault of archavon. which we all know was snoozeville.

[wanax]

2 million more? false. TBC finished at 11.5 million. wrath peaked at 12.5 million tops.
and again - peak doesn't mean much - if you got even 1 sub more then the next highest expanc congrats, you win.
wrath may have been the peak, but it saw very little growth compared to vanilla (8 million) and burning crusade (3.5 million).

yeah vendors sold 2 pieces. you could also get 2 pieces from vault of archavon. which we all know was snoozeville.

Whatever man. You win. Blah blah blah vanilla is the best.

[Tantaburs]

Loot in general is ridiculous regardless of how it is statted. Explain the "immersive" explanation for dungeon sets, or tier sets. What did Nefarian find this set of plate armour, that only a warrior is able to put on, which as you got more of it you got stronger and instead of destroying it he split it up among 9 of his friends 3 of whom got the same piece of gear somehow. But not only did he find this special plate set for exclusively warriors he also found one for each other class in the game so he again divided that up amongst 9 of his friends.

You can like bad itemization if you want but calling it "immersive" isnt a good argument

[Mirain1]

They changed it because it sucked....it was absolutely horrible, one of the worst things about vanilla.

Ehh subjective. I thought it was fine. Just because certain items had weird stats doesn't mean it sucked. At least it's better than the bland, boring itemization retail has.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

got a source that both tbc and wrath were better then vanilla? tbc i could argue, but wrath saw very minimal growth and started almost everything wrong with the game today.

uh, stable subscriber numbers were (by far) the largest during WotLK? It has the highest rated raids and 5 man dungeons, even pvp and 'open world' is highly regarded in WotLK. Class balance and development was very good, did the game become more 'friendly' and in some ways mark the start of the downfall? Maybe, I think that was Cataclysm (end of cata).
http://powerwordgold.blogspot.com/20...2005-2013.html


Subscriber numbers are obviously not alone a indicator of how good a game is, but to hold and not lose any subscriptions at those numbers is impressive.

[anon5123]

Spirit increased health regen out of combat.

"if it's not useful in combat it is useless!"
Found the retail babby.

Weapon skillups are absolutely worthless in raiding.

Weapon skill is extremely useful for raiding. Another confirmation that you haven't played vanilla.

Did you seriously think those arguments would work? Retailer? I played Classic. Try again. Or don't, because you'll just fail, again.

And here comes the retail babby rage because you know you're wrong.

[Nathanyel]

This was the reason they implemented the Epic PVP gear and the Tier 2.5 during Vanilla, because players wanted to utilize off-specs. If they inevitably decide to create new Classic content and a Tier 3.5 after the initial run then rest assured they will again account for off-specs.

...now i kinda want to see this happen, just for the rage this will induce in "pure class" elitists.

[Equoowe]

Weapon skill is extremely useful for raiding. Another confirmation that you haven't played vanilla.

Read what he said, he didn't say weapon skill is useless.

[anon5123]

Read what he said, he didn't say weapon skill is useless.

"weapon skillups" and "weapon skill" are not that different from each other.

Getting those last 5 points in your weapon skill can take a while. Having more int helps with that.

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This was the reason they implemented the Epic PVP gear and the Tier 2.5 during Vanilla, because players wanted to utilize off-specs. If they inevitably decide to create new Classic content and a Tier 3.5 after the initial run then rest assured they will again account for off-specs.

You can't use tier sets to fix class problems.

The T2.5 sets did not do much to make hybrid DPS viable.

Furthermore, having a "T3.5" set for hybrids means that...hybrids are garbage until post-naxx? Just further showing why using tier sets to fix class problems is a bad idea.

[AceofH]

uh, stable subscriber numbers were (by far) the largest during WotLK? It has the highest rated raids and 5 man dungeons, even pvp and 'open world' is highly regarded in WotLK. Class balance and development was very good, did the game become more 'friendly' and in some ways mark the start of the downfall? Maybe, I think that was Cataclysm (end of cata).
http://powerwordgold.blogspot.com/20...2005-2013.html


Subscriber numbers are obviously not alone a indicator of how good a game is, but to hold and not lose any subscriptions at those numbers is impressive.

By far? If by far you mean only 1 million higher then bc sure. Look at that graph again. What do you see?

I see minimal growth and lots of stagnation throughout wrath.

Whats your source on highest rated raids and dungeons? Because naxx tier and toc were considered a huge letdown. Dungeons were widely considered a joke.
Class balance was very homogenized and lead to huge declines in rogue and lock populations.

And wrath was when friendly happened. Threat was made easy mode, dungeons were faceroll easy, baseline raid difficulty was triviliazed, badge gear and vault. LFD...

[nymphetsss]

Still raiding as Enhancement #changemymind.

I was part of our server second rag kill and first nef as a moonkin. A competent player can make anything work

I'll be a moonkin again , you do you boo

[TJ]

2 million more? false. TBC finished at 11.5 million. wrath peaked at 12.5 million tops.
and again - peak doesn't mean much - if you got even 1 sub more then the next highest expanc congrats, you win.
wrath may have been the peak, but it saw very little growth compared to vanilla (8 million) and burning crusade (3.5 million).

yeah vendors sold 2 pieces. you could also get 2 pieces from vault of archavon. which we all know was snoozeville.

Doesn't matter how good Wrath was, it was very unlikely to get more than 12.5 million players. That is absolutely colossal for an online sub based MMO. There's only so many players the game can get, and that was arguably very close to the peak.

[nymphetsss]

We were specifically talking about tier sets and how they were only for one spec/role. There were a few exceptions (but not in tier sets).
You might think you had a lot of freedom in Vanilla, and you did, but if you were serious then all hybrids were healers, only warriors were tanks and only mage/warlock/warrior and rogue were dps ...hunter being somewhere in the middle (tranq shot bot).
With TBC and WotLK more and more specs were given room in raids, which was better, not the clusterfuck "everyone is equal" like we have had since WoD...
Game balance and opportunity in classic was terrible, it stands as the biggest drawback for me and a lot of people.
A lot of people wanted to raid as ret pala... but they couldn’t.
A lot of people wanted to raid as prot pala... but they couldn’t.
A lot of people wanted to raid as balance druid... but they couldn’t.

naw lots did

I was part of our server second rag kill and first nef as a moonkin. A competent player can make anything work

I'll be a moonkin again , you do you boo

[TJ]

uh, stable subscriber numbers were (by far) the largest during WotLK? It has the highest rated raids and 5 man dungeons, even pvp and 'open world' is highly regarded in WotLK. Class balance and development was very good, did the game become more 'friendly' and in some ways mark the start of the downfall? Maybe, I think that was Cataclysm (end of cata).
http://powerwordgold.blogspot.com/20...2005-2013.html


Subscriber numbers are obviously not alone a indicator of how good a game is, but to hold and not lose any subscriptions at those numbers is impressive.

Wrath was near perfect imo, it's very hard to get better than that. You've got gamplay and progression for more casual players, and gameplay, progression and gear for the more hardcore players. As you said, the balance and viability of specs was also superb compared to other iterations of WoW. I thoroughly enjoyed Wrath. Although I played Cata the most and probably regard it as the best in terms of actual gameplay and difficulty/class skill, I think Wrath OVERALL is my favourite because Cata didn't deliver in every category.

[tikcol]

I was part of our server second rag kill and first nef as a moonkin. A competent player can make anything work

I'll be a moonkin again , you do you boo

What do you mean make it work? Achieve half the DPS of the lowest mage on the meter?

Let's be clear about things here. People usually throw phrases like that around "make it work", "it's viable" but they don't elaborate on it further.

At the end of the day everything is viable if a guild is keen on bringing you along. The problem is that when a guild has 50 players waiting to raid, a boomkin doesn't have priority whatsoever. Because even the backpedaling mage that clicks will do better DPS than an oomkin can ever hope for.

[Equoowe]

naw lots did

I was part of our server second rag kill and first nef as a moonkin. A competent player can make anything work

I'll be a moonkin again , you do you boo

A competent player can't make up for the huge downsides of specs like moonkin, this isn't like more recent xpac where the specs have a much higher skill gap and a great player will do good damage even on the worst specs, you are going to do horrible damage no matter what, just find a guild that is fine with that.

[Tantaburs]

"weapon skillups" and "weapon skill" are not that different from each other.

Getting those last 5 points in your weapon skill can take a while. Having more int helps with that.

If you are showing up to a raid with a non maxed weapon skill then you dont deserve to be there. If you are leveling weapon skills outside of raids (like you should be) then gather a bunch of random intellect greens and go smash mobs.

OOC regeneration is also pointless for raiding and we are talking about raiding gear and raiding itemization spirit does nothing for a raiding warrior it does alot for a leveling warrior and arguably a decent amount for a farming warrior but again if we are talking a out OOC regeneration we can get a spirit set and swap to it OOC this does take bag space which is at a premium but it will get you more spirit.

Stop responding to legitimate criticisms of your idea with ad hominem attacks.

[Charge me Doctor]

What do you mean make it work? Achieve half the DPS of the lowest mage on the meter?

Let's be clear about things here. People usually throw phrases like that around "make it work", "it's viable" but they don't elaborate on it further.

At the end of the day everything is viable if a guild is keen on bringing you along. The problem is that when a guild has 50 players waiting to raid, a boomkin doesn't have priority whatsoever. Because even the backpedaling mage that clicks will do better DPS than an oomkin can ever hope for.

Back when we were raiding AQ40 we had a little brother of our MT, and MT insisted on bringing him in, regardless of him being:
1) an awful player who barely understood anything
2) 9 years old
3) a huntard with a spec looking something like 17/17/17
4) in str gear

Yet 15 years later he could go on and brag about how he killed half of AQ40 in str gear hunter with fucked up spec and mostly doing nothing doing the raid or being dead.



On a case of balance druid - it would work if you overgear content significantly and bosses fall down in two minutes window, but at this point it doesn't matter, because it's like linking parses of a SoO solo run on your mage into a thread about "mages suck in pve".

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"weapon skillups" and "weapon skill" are not that different from each other.

Getting those last 5 points in your weapon skill can take a while. Having more int helps with that.

You do that in badlands on invulnerable demons, you don't level you weapon skill in a raid. At least you aren't supposed to. And you aren't stacking int to level weapon skill in a raid, it's idiotic, i'd boot such a player back into world as soon as i'd notice that and then would require him to send me a screenshot with his skill maxed out. And if he is a warrior i'd also ask him to pop his last stand, because such a player shouldn't get any trust.

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Stop responding to legitimate criticisms of your idea with ad hominem attacks.

I've noticed this guy throw a lot of accusations that others never played in vanilla, like he is insecure about it, and make claims that make no sense if you played back in vanilla. It's hilarious.

[Super Kami Dende]

Locking an entire Class into 1 specialization through Endgame gear is and was retarded.

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uh, stable subscriber numbers were (by far) the largest during WotLK? It has the highest rated raids and 5 man dungeons, even pvp and 'open world' is highly regarded in WotLK. Class balance and development was very good, did the game become more 'friendly' and in some ways mark the start of the downfall? Maybe, I think that was Cataclysm (end of cata).
http://powerwordgold.blogspot.com/20...2005-2013.html


Subscriber numbers are obviously not alone a indicator of how good a game is, but to hold and not lose any subscriptions at those numbers is impressive.

Even that Picture is wrong, as it says "The future" and has a fast drop off, even though WoD and Legion Both had Spikes back up to 10 million.

[Charge me Doctor]

Even that Picture is wrong, as it says "The future" and has a fast drop off, even though WoD and Legion Both had Spikes back up to 10 million.

This picture is "wrong" for another reason - sub numbers never was a good measuring tool for game success. If you want to know why - read a "dead souls" book by Gogol and put a thought in it.