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  1. #161
    The problem is, most of the old survival stuff has already been rolled into either BM or MM. I do like the idea of a 4th spec that is ranged and does more magical damage, like old survival, but it would need to be almost entirely new stuff at this point. Since Black Arrow is still available, build a Dark Ranger spec around it with shadow damage and a few necromancer-type abilities instead.

  2. #162
    Thats barely different from marksman, you can already pick serpent sting and lock and load. just add a talent that turns aimed shot into explosive shot and your done.
    Pre legion survival isnt coming back as a new spec, it was barely different from marksman back then, it lacked any thematic distinction from marksman and beast master and it doesnt deserve to come back.
    If they did bring it back they would need to update it to the point that it wouldnt even be recognizable as 'survival' anyway, specs get updated every expansion, if they never removed it it would have probably been reworked regardless.

    Stop flogging the dead horse, if there are some interesting mechanics you want back then sure, suggest those as additions to marksman or beast mastery, but we dont need black arrow or immolation trap back.

    If they add 4th specs, i hope they dont bring back old survival, they could do a multitude of other more interesting things instead, ideally a tank spec with your pet could be really cool, but not yet another ranged archer with a pet, we already have 2 specs that do that.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by FossilFree View Post
    The problem is, most of the old survival stuff has already been rolled into either BM or MM. I do like the idea of a 4th spec that is ranged and does more magical damage, like old survival, but it would need to be almost entirely new stuff at this point. Since Black Arrow is still available, build a Dark Ranger spec around it with shadow damage and a few necromancer-type abilities instead.
    There's actually next to nothing within either BM or MM which was moved over there from RSV, going into Legion.

    Serpent Sting is there, sure. Although it lacks pretty much everything that SV used to build on it.

    Explosive Shot? It's the ability in name only. Nothing pertaining to the old design has remained apart from the above.

    Lock&Load is in MM, but it's redesigned and only interacts with Aimed Shot. And AiS, has nothing to do with the old RSV.

    And for the rest of MM or BM for that matter, what else is there that was tied to RSV prior to Legion?

    ---
    I don't know how much of the OP you read through but I can guarantee that the gameplay tied to such a playstyle would be at least as objectively unique to for example MM as Destro is to Affliction, etc.

    Several things in the suggested concept are updated versions of past elements taken from old iterations of RSV. But you will also find that just as much of it involves new, theme-accurate, elements which are added in to allow the spec to suit the modern game.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    Thats barely different from marksman, you can already pick serpent sting and lock and load. just add a talent that turns aimed shot into explosive shot and your done.
    What is barely different from Marksman?

    Besides, the whole point here is that we should not try to alter/remove existing specs and playstyles just to fit something else into it. If that applies to current MSV, it also applies to BM and MM.

    Also, no, simply changing ES so it acts as a replacement to AiS will not make MM like what RSV used to be.


    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    Pre legion survival isnt coming back as a new spec, it was barely different from marksman back then, it lacked any thematic distinction from marksman and beast master and it doesnt deserve to come back.
    If this is the depth of your logic then you can say the same when comparing Arms to Fury or Outlaw to Assa/Sub or Arcane to Fire/Frost or Demo to Destro/Aff.

    If the fact that the specs all had unique animations, mechanical elements and interactions between their respective abilities, etc., if that isn't enough then the distinctions between the specs mentioned above aren't enough either.

    It's not just about "But, they both shoot arrows", but about so much more.


    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    If they did bring it back they would need to update it to the point that it wouldnt even be recognizable as 'survival' anyway, specs get updated every expansion, if they never removed it it would have probably been reworked regardless.
    You didn't actually read through the OP, did you?

    I can guarantee you that anyone who played RSV for an extended amount of time will recognize a lot of elements from past iterations of what was RSV, when adding it all together.

    Sure, many changes and additions have been made. After all, RSV existed in a time prior to the concept of spec identity and spec fantasy. But it IS still RSV in it's core.


    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    Stop flogging the dead horse, if there are some interesting mechanics you want back then sure, suggest those as additions to marksman or beast mastery, but we dont need black arrow or immolation trap back.
    Like I said above, we should not opt to replace existing parts of current specs/or replace specs altogether just to fit something else in there. That would be fine if everyone liked the same thing. But we don't.


    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    If they add 4th specs, i hope they dont bring back old survival, they could do a multitude of other more interesting things instead, ideally a tank spec with your pet could be really cool, but not yet another ranged archer with a pet, we already have 2 specs that do that.
    This first part is entirely subjective.

    However, BM is not just "another ranged archer with a pet". It's specifically designed for pets to be the main focus.

    And Marksmanship isn't even designed with pets in mind...

    And also, what type of argument is this when we literally have 13 melee specs(not incl tanks) in the game, but only 2 that currently have any form of focus on the use of ranged weapons? One of which where the focus on the weapon is barely at a minor capacity.

  5. #165
    What is barely different from Marksman?

    Besides, the whole point here is that we should not try to alter/remove existing specs and playstyles just to fit something else into it. If that applies to current MSV, it also applies to BM and MM.

    Also, no, simply changing ES so it acts as a replacement to AiS will not make MM like what RSV used to be.


    If this is the depth of your logic then you can say the same when comparing Arms to Fury or Outlaw to Assa/Sub or Arcane to Fire/Frost or Demo to Destro/Aff.

    If the fact that the specs all had unique animations, mechanical elements and interactions between their respective abilities, etc., if that isn't enough then the distinctions between the specs mentioned above aren't enough either.

    It's not just about "But, they both shoot arrows", but about so much more.
    Outlaw and fury fulfill completely different fantasies, one is a light footed swashbuckler, the other is a rampaging berserker, 0/10.
    Fire, arcane and frost all use different sources of magic, not a comparison, thats 3 very distinct fantasies.
    destruction uses full fel energy and fire magic, affliction uses fel and shadow magic, thats a less impressive distinction but their playstyles are very distinct from eachother and there is enough fantasy to justify them both.

    The reason old survival didnt make sense as a unique spec is that it had literally NOTHING unique to it that wouldnt make sense on either of the other two specs. Nothing. Beast master could use all the poison skills, marksman could use all the specialized shot skills.



    You didn't actually read through the OP, did you?

    I can guarantee you that anyone who played RSV for an extended amount of time will recognize a lot of elements from past iterations of what was RSV, when adding it all together.

    Sure, many changes and additions have been made. After all, RSV existed in a time prior to the concept of spec identity and spec fantasy. But it IS still RSV in it's core.
    Specs werent that compicated back then, you could easily bring it back as a subspec of marksman, i remember all 3 specs using mostly the same skills back then, survivals main distinction was dots? explosive shot, black arrow and sepent sting, none of which all together made a sensible fantasy (natural poisons, death magic and technological explosions) it was a fucking mess thematically, so the only thing imo worth preserving was its gameplay. The main gameplay i figure was the dots, lock and load and a single dot that only applied to one target at a time. We have lock and load for the proc, we have serpent sting back, a skill that replaces aimed shot with old explosive shot and all we need is a shitty single target dot which i dont believe would be brought back regardless but eh.

    I think this is just a case of rose tinted glasses, old marksman is dead too since new marksman plays nothing like old marksman. What actual skills do players miss that we dont currently have access to?

    Like I said above, we should not opt to replace existing parts of current specs/or replace specs altogether just to fit something else in there. That would be fine if everyone liked the same thing. But we don't.
    if 2 specs do the same thing the same way, it makes sense to merge them. The best example you could have given me would be sub vs sin, both apply dots, both use daggers, both fulfill the sneaky assassin archetype, hell they even share a lot of their talents.
    Guess what my opinion on that is? they should be merged. There is nothing you could give to assassination that wouldnt make sense on subtlety. Their gameplay isnt that distinct from eachother, both build and spend combo points, both apply poisons, both use rupture, its little intricacies that distinguish them, and those intricacies are exactly what the talent system is for. You could preserve the gameplay of both current specs very easily through talents where you get the best of both worlds, the fact that they are separated does a disservice to both specs because any good idea that works for both needs to be given to just one.

    Axing one of them and merging them could open up the opportunity to add another ranged archer rogue spec, that would fit the class and fulfill a completely different fantasy.

    This first part is entirely subjective.

    However, BM is not just "another ranged archer with a pet". It's specifically designed for pets to be the main focus.

    And Marksmanship isn't even designed with pets in mind...

    And also, what type of argument is this when we literally have 13 melee specs(not incl tanks) in the game, but only 2 that currently have any form of focus on the use of ranged weapons? One of which where the focus on the weapon is barely at a minor capacity.
    And no its not subjective, another hunter archer spec would bring nothing we dont already have and would need to steal from existing specs the way demon hunters and death knights had to take things from warlocks. A hunter tank spec wouldnt have any overlap with any spec in the game currently, giving them complete creative freedom on spec design, thats just a fact, not a subjective opinion.

    I agree that we could use more archer specs, but we dont need more hunter archer specs. if we get 4th specs id like other classes to get archer specs.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    Outlaw and fury fulfill completely different fantasies, one is a light footed swashbuckler, the other is a rampaging berserker, 0/10.

    Fire, arcane and frost all use different sources of magic, not a comparison, thats 3 very distinct fantasies.
    destruction uses full fel energy and fire magic, affliction uses fel and shadow magic, thats a less impressive distinction but their playstyles are very distinct from eachother and there is enough fantasy to justify them both.
    You completely missed my point here, and you also missed what my comparisons were. I did not compare Warriors to Rogues.

    Also, you seem to want to refer to Outlaw as a "lightfooted swashbuckler" and Fury, a "rampaging berserker". Let's do the same for Marksmanship and the old Survival.

    Marksmanship has always been themed after the fantasy of a "patient Sniper" or a "sharpshooter". It's abilities involved the idea of taking your time to properly aim your weapon in order to hit that perfect spot. The actual impact of the projectile/arrow, specifically where it impacted, was/is the main focus.

    Survival(while still ranged, in WoD as an example) promoted the idea of a "munitions expert" and a "trapper". Not a sharpshooter. You opted to augment your projectiles/arrows to be as deadly as they can, no matter where they hit their target. And, unlike a marksman, you were a master at creating deadly traps for the enemy to step into.


    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    The reason old survival didnt make sense as a unique spec is that it had literally NOTHING unique to it that wouldnt make sense on either of the other two specs. Nothing. Beast master could use all the poison skills, marksman could use all the specialized shot skills.
    The problem here is that you seem to not want to take in what specs actually are. As an example, all Mages can conjure spells based on either Arcane, Fire, Frost magic.
    The difference between Arcane and Fire is that an Arcane mage, chooses to delve deeper into what it means to focus on Arcane-magic. A Fire mage instead chooses to school himself/herself in the use of Fire magic.

    Again, compare Hunters. Ofc a BM hunter can use poisons or traps etc. Same for a MM hunter.

    The thing is that, as a BM hunter, you choose to rely more on/focus more on what it means to handle wild animals. How to make them as deadly as possible(more specifically, how to make use of their deadly attacks while being loyal to yourself).

    A MM hunter, chooses to focus on having perfect aim. They choose to opt out of pet reliance or on the use of traps, or augmented shots because...they need only their perfect aim.

    Survival, like with MM back then, did not heavily rely on pets. As a Survival hunter, you chose to rely on the actual projectiles/arrows you fired. Making them as deadly as they could be to the target. For a SV hunter, it did not matter if you hit your target in the head or in the leg. As long as you hit them, the poison/explosive charges and such, would do the job just fine. Along with the traps ofc.

    Do you get my point about what it means to choose a specialization, and what it actually is?


    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    Specs werent that compicated back then, you could easily bring it back as a subspec of marksman, i remember all 3 specs using mostly the same skills back then, survivals main distinction was dots? explosive shot, black arrow and sepent sting, none of which all together made a sensible fantasy (natural poisons, death magic and technological explosions) it was a fucking mess thematically, so the only thing imo worth preserving was its gameplay.
    SV had more than 12 unique abilities and effects that were entirely different from what either BM or MM focused on. And vice versa.

    Also, no, the theme of SV wasn't a f*ing mess. It was perfectly logical to have those things as a SV hunter.

    Why? The theme of SV was on being a Munitions Expert. And for hunters in WoW, that meant using whatever you could get your hands on which made projectiles/arrows more deadly. Poison? Animal Venom? Explosives? All of them fit that theme to a T.


    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    The main gameplay i figure was the dots, lock and load and a single dot that only applied to one target at a time. We have lock and load for the proc, we have serpent sting back, a skill that replaces aimed shot with old explosive shot and all we need is a shitty single target dot which i dont believe would be brought back regardless but eh.

    I think this is just a case of rose tinted glasses, old marksman is dead too since new marksman plays nothing like old marksman. What actual skills do players miss that we dont currently have access to?
    I thought the philosophy of the modern game was to explore every theme/fantasy even more? Not less...

    Besides, again, no. Those things you mentioned are only a portion of what RSV was about in the past.


    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    if 2 specs do the same thing the same way, it makes sense to merge them. The best example you could have given me would be sub vs sin, both apply dots, both use daggers, both fulfill the sneaky assassin archetype, hell they even share a lot of their talents.
    Guess what my opinion on that is? they should be merged. There is nothing you could give to assassination that wouldnt make sense on subtlety. Their gameplay isnt that distinct from eachother, both build and spend combo points, both apply poisons, both use rupture, its little intricacies that distinguish them, and those intricacies are exactly what the talent system is for. You could preserve the gameplay of both current specs very easily through talents where you get the best of both worlds, the fact that they are separated does a disservice to both specs because any good idea that works for both needs to be given to just one.

    Axing one of them and merging them could open up the opportunity to add another ranged archer rogue spec, that would fit the class and fulfill a completely different fantasy.
    This entirely depends on how you define what makes something unique. Specifically, to what degree. Ofc you can give parts of Assasination to Sub and it would be perfectly fine. It's a choice your character(and you) make in terms of what you should specialize in. It's not that you can't do both. You choose to focus on one or the other.


    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    And no its not subjective, another hunter archer spec would bring nothing we dont already have and would need to steal from existing specs the way demon hunters and death knights had to take things from warlocks.
    Again, did you actually read the OP?

    Next to nothing which I suggested is the same there as it is in the other hunter specs(or other classes) we have. Part from the general focus on elements that are in some ways class-wide, such as ranged weapons or pets or traps. This concept just focuses on them more or in different ways from that of other hunter specs.

    Hunters, by definition, having a lot of focus on using ranged weapons, can take very little from other classes. As long as the elements remain focused on the use of ranged weapons.


    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    A hunter tank spec wouldnt have any overlap with any spec in the game currently, giving them complete creative freedom on spec design, thats just a fact, not a subjective opinion.
    Are you sure about that? By all means, give some examples of how it would work.


    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    I agree that we could use more archer specs, but we dont need more hunter archer specs. if we get 4th specs id like other classes to get archer specs.
    Again, we have our preferences.

    We don't actually need anything in this game. It's about allowing players to play the way they want to. About having more options to do so.
    Last edited by F Rm; 2020-09-20 at 11:18 AM.

  7. #167
    Have made a slight change the design of the level 90 talent: Spitting Cobra.

    Old design:
    Cobra Shot now extends the remaining duration of Serpent Sting on the enemy target by X sec, up to a max of 15 seconds.
    In addition, Cobra Shot now has a high chance of generating double Focus when fired.


    New design:
    Cobra Shot now deals an additional X% damage as Nature damage and extends the remaining duration of Serpent Sting on the enemy target by X sec, up to a max of 15 seconds.
    In addition, Cobra Shot now has a high chance of generating double Focus when fired.


    The underlined section is what's been changed/added. This was mostly done to allow the talent to hold up better on it's own vs. other talents on that same row.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by F Rm View Post
    Have made a slight change the design of the level 90 talent: Spitting Cobra.

    Old design:
    Cobra Shot now extends the remaining duration of Serpent Sting on the enemy target by X sec, up to a max of 15 seconds.
    In addition, Cobra Shot now has a high chance of generating double Focus when fired.


    New design:
    Cobra Shot now deals an additional X% damage as Nature damage and extends the remaining duration of Serpent Sting on the enemy target by X sec, up to a max of 15 seconds.
    In addition, Cobra Shot now has a high chance of generating double Focus when fired.


    The underlined section is what's been changed/added. This was mostly done to allow the talent to hold up better on it's own vs. other talents on that same row.
    Sounds boring. Having your filler ability / focus generator extending a dot is boring design.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-09-25 at 09:07 AM.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Sounds boring. Having your filler ability / focus generator extending a dot is boring design.
    To some perhaps. Depending on how/when it's utilized.

    Having Cobra Shot extend the duration of SrS is a design element tied to MoP, and later on, to WoD as well. The talent specifically allows for some further choices to be made, both baseline as well as with other talents. Prominently so in multi-target scenarios.

    I do however agree that the sole feature of the extention of SrS is not enough to warrant it's own talent spot, in the modern game. Hence why there's more to the talent than just that element.

    More direct damage for Cobra Shot, but more importantly, a high chance for CS to generate double focus. Again, especially useful in multi-target scenarios. But also for ST.

    ---

    Having said that, you've got an idea for what would be considered to be less boring?
    Last edited by F Rm; 2020-09-25 at 09:57 AM.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by F Rm View Post
    To some perhaps. Depending on how/when it's utilized.

    Having Cobra Shot extend the duration of SrS is a design element tied to MoP, and later on, to WoD as well. The talent specifically allows for some further choices to be made, both baseline as well as with other talents. Prominently so in multi-target scenarios.

    I do however agree that the sole feature of the extention of SrS is not enough to warrant it's own talent spot, in the modern game. Hence why there's more to the talent than just that element.

    More direct damage for Cobra Shot, but more importantly, a high chance for CS to generate double focus. Again, especially useful in multi-target scenarios. But also for ST.

    ---

    Having said that, you've got an idea for what would be considered to be less boring?
    First of all I completely agree that Survival should be a ranged spec. Hunter is a ranged class and it is perceived as a ranged class by the community which is important in relation to group content.

    To be honest, I do think SV and MM in practice played very similar in WOD. I know people don’t like to hear that and I’m not saying that SV and MM have same fantasy at all. Both specs can be ranged and still be completely different. They just weren’t very different in WOD in relation to practical gameplay in my opinion. But they have the potential to be. SV doesn’t have to be melee to differentiate it from MM.

    However, for SV to be it’s own unique spec I think it should embrace it’s fantasy as a ranged dot/poison/trap much more than it did in WOD. Simple mechanics like Serpent Sting being extended by cobra shot and applied automatically by multishot is just way too boring in my opinion. It is far from enough to really build the spec around it’s fantasy. The specs need to have much more intelligent synergy between the dots, the shots and the traps. In my opinion. I felt SV in WOD was pretty fun but in my opinion the spec lacked synergy. In my eyes the spec was just a lot of random abilities thrown together.

    But overall SV should be a ranged dot spec. End of story

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    First of all I completely agree that Survival should be a ranged spec. Hunter is a ranged class and it is perceived as a ranged class by the community which is important in relation to group content.

    To be honest, I do think SV and MM in practice played very similar in WOD. I know people don’t like to hear that and I’m not saying that SV and MM have same fantasy at all. Both specs can be ranged and still be completely different. They just weren’t very different in WOD in relation to practical gameplay in my opinion. But they have the potential to be. SV doesn’t have to be melee to differentiate it from MM.

    However, for SV to be it’s own unique spec I think it should embrace it’s fantasy as a ranged dot/poison/trap much more than it did in WOD. Simple mechanics like Serpent Sting being extended by cobra shot and applied automatically by multishot is just way too boring in my opinion. It is far from enough to really build the spec around it’s fantasy. The specs need to have much more intelligent synergy between the dots, the shots and the traps. In my opinion. I felt SV in WOD was pretty fun but in my opinion the spec lacked synergy. In my eyes the spec was just a lot of random abilities thrown together.

    But overall SV should be a ranged dot spec. End of story
    It could have been a ranged dot spec, but it begs the question, by how much? Are you looking at ST dot spec? The ability to spread dots around like a Lock or Spriest? How many dots do you want? How do you change the spec to use them? As it stands, all 3 specs played the same between amount of buttons and how you pressed them, albeit with minor differences in 1 being a CD vs 1 being a damage dealing button. Now, there is quite a difference between MM and BM, but how do you adjust SV?
    Just to compare. Let’s say you took today’s MM vs WoD’s SV. Basic abilities:
    MM). RF>AiS>AS>SS.
    SV). BA>ExS>AS (has to be a filler between CDs so I chose this to continue)>CS
    Now, the themes are different, but the playstyle is damn near exact, which is how I’ve stated the 3 specs used to be. So, how do you change SVs playstyle to be different like Blizzard wants?
    Going back to the fundamentals of a range dot spec, how do you change SV to accommodate it? Do you increase Focus regen to allow multidotting across spread targets? Do you differentiate playstyle by adding more dots, potentially differing traps to throw at locations which can add button bloat? Or maybe give charges to traps so you can throw multiple Explosive/Fire traps around the room on a CD? Or do you give infinite traps to make it more dot like? This would be like how a Warlock or Spriest just relies on mana, even though it’s basically infinite.
    There’s a lot to consider, and there’s no guarantee that people would still like the spec in that fashion.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    To be honest, I do think SV and MM in practice played very similar in WOD. I know people don’t like to hear that and I’m not saying that SV and MM have same fantasy at all. Both specs can be ranged and still be completely different. They just weren’t very different in WOD in relation to practical gameplay in my opinion. But they have the potential to be. SV doesn’t have to be melee to differentiate it from MM.
    I'd say that the specs were perfectly fine for what was intended at the time. Especially considering how it was intended for all three specs to share most talents available.
    I personally did not like what the talent design was like, but it was intended to be that way. So, as a result, you can really only compare the core specs themselves.

    But I do agree that, by today's standards, it wouldn't be enough. They would need more than what was there at the time. Though, that's a different story.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    However, for SV to be it’s own unique spec I think it should embrace it’s fantasy as a ranged dot/poison/trap much more than it did in WOD.
    Agreed. Thinking of today's philosophies...
    Essentially, keep the base conceptual design/theme and allow for passives and talents to further provide options to delve deeper into whichever partial feature you'd like.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Simple mechanics like Serpent Sting being extended by cobra shot and applied automatically by multishot is just way too boring in my opinion. It is far from enough to really build the spec around it’s fantasy.
    I agree that those things alone aren't enough. Which is also why I've made the additions that I did, looking at the suggested concept in the OP.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    The specs need to have much more intelligent synergy between the dots, the shots and the traps. In my opinion. I felt SV in WOD was pretty fun but in my opinion the spec lacked synergy.
    That was pretty much what I was after when I came up with the suggested concept. Feel free to read it through.

    I can guarantee that you will find a lot more than just what was there in WoD. It's specifically designed to fit the modern game and modern class/spec design, as opposed to what was intended back in WoD.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    In my eyes the spec was just a lot of random abilities thrown together.
    Not entirely sure what iteration you're speaking of here.

    RSV, for example during MoP and WoD, held the theme of being a "munitions expert" and a "trapper". In WoW, that essentially means to make use of things like poison, animal venom, and explosive attachments to augment your projectiles/arrows. Even the idea of having said projectiles and arrows infused with magic fits that theme.
    Along with a focus on how to improve basic traps or even come up with new ones.

    If you ask me though, hunters should not opt to focus on learning magic themselves to a major degree, but if they want "magical" shots, they should visit a schooled magician or a vendor and purchase the service from them. If you/anyone want a "magical archer", I would say that this is not/should not be the hunter class.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by F Rm View Post
    Not entirely sure what iteration you're speaking of here.

    RSV, for example during MoP and WoD, held the theme of being a "munitions expert" and a "trapper". In WoW, that essentially means to make use of things like poison, animal venom, and explosive attachments to augment your projectiles/arrows. Even the idea of having said projectiles and arrows infused with magic fits that theme.
    Along with a focus on how to improve basic traps or even come up with new ones.

    If you ask me though, hunters should not opt to focus on learning magic themselves to a major degree, but if they want "magical" shots, they should visit a schooled magician or a vendor and purchase the service from them. If you/anyone want a "magical archer", I would say that this is not/should not be the hunter class.
    I meant in terms of playstyle/gameplay. Not fantasy . Yes the theme and fantasy of many abilities were fine, but they didn't really interact with each other. There was no complex synergy between the abilities. You could basically use your abilities in a random order and they worked almost completely independ from each other. That's not fun and engaging game design in my opinion. And example of synergy I would like to see would for example be explosive shot being a detonator for your traps. So in an AOE situation you would throw down 2-3 'explosive traps' around your targets and you would use explosive shot to detonate them. That's just one single example. But that would at least create some synergy.

    So again, I definitely think SV should be ranged. And I really like the potential fanatasy of SV. But I think the spec needs more complex mechanics and synergy compared to what it had in WOD. And to be frank with no disprect, I don't think your suggestions is enough. Changes like Serpent Sting increasing the base damage of Cobra Shot is a bit lackluster in my opinion.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-09-25 at 04:01 PM.

  14. #174
    -
    First, did you ask Kaver specifically here or just asking the questions in general?

    Ah well...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    It could have been a ranged dot spec, but it begs the question, by how much?
    Essentially, with the base concept/theme from WoD, but adapted to suit the modern game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Are you looking at ST dot spec? The ability to spread dots around like a Lock or Spriest?
    Both, pretty much.

    If you ask me, I would want RSV(a modern version) to have it's previous consistent ST damage, but also with the capability of multi-dot'ing. Much more so than in the past.

    However...

    I would prefer if, despite having basic multi-dot'ing, if RSV had more of a situational capability to spread/apply DoTs to multiple targets. Or at the very least, if you want to be better at consistent multi-dot'ing, it should require you to pick certain talents or perhaps rely on some external effects/bonuses.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    How many dots do you want?
    What we had in the past.

    Explosive Shot
    Black Arrow
    Serpent Sting

    But with the bonus of...

    Immolation Trap(situational use only, not "rotational").

    ---
    As for how each of them would work, specifically, things can change depending on talent choices, etc.

    Combine those with your basic filler and generator and you will have more than enough to manage. Especially when dealing with multiple target-scenarios.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    How do you change the spec to use them?
    Specifically, see the OP


    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    As it stands, all 3 specs played the same between amount of buttons and how you pressed them, albeit with minor differences in 1 being a CD vs 1 being a damage dealing button.
    The amount of buttons used matters for very little, objectively. What truly matters, is what each button(ability) represents, and how you utilize it.

    There is no comparison between a damage dealer and a power-up/CD. They are totally different in terms of game mechanics.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Now, there is quite a difference between MM and BM, but how do you adjust SV?
    Compare MM from either BfA or SL with what you see in the OP.

    I can guarantee that they would not play the same. Not even close. The respective mechanics and interactions are for the most, completely different from one another.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Just to compare. Let’s say you took today’s MM vs WoD’s SV. Basic abilities:
    MM). RF>AiS>AS>SS.
    SV). BA>ExS>AS (has to be a filler between CDs so I chose this to continue)>CS

    Now, the themes are different, but the playstyle is damn near exact, which is how I’ve stated the 3 specs used to be.
    WoD's SV cannot be compared to today's specs. Different eras and different philosophies in terms of designs.

    Also note that "playstyle" has little to do with the number of buttons you have bound to your keyboard.
    Again, what matters is how you utilize said buttons(abilities) and how each of them work.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    So, how do you change SVs playstyle to be different like Blizzard wants?
    Going back to the fundamentals of a range dot spec, how do you change SV to accommodate it? Do you increase Focus regen to allow multidotting across spread targets? Do you differentiate playstyle by adding more dots, potentially differing traps to throw at locations which can add button bloat? Or maybe give charges to traps so you can throw multiple Explosive/Fire traps around the room on a CD? Or do you give infinite traps to make it more dot like? This would be like how a Warlock or Spriest just relies on mana, even though it’s basically infinite.
    Maybe not as focused on traps but more on ranged shots(in the form of DoTs).

    More Focus generation and even the option to build up the duration+strength of individual DoTs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    There’s a lot to consider, and there’s no guarantee that people would still like the spec in that fashion.
    As is always the case no matter what is suggested/designed.

    Nothing will ever be perfect for everyone.

  15. #175
    Make BM the melee spec since that has the best basis in lore for it with Rexxar, Let people have their Ranged Survival.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    It could have been a ranged dot spec, but it begs the question, by how much? Are you looking at ST dot spec? The ability to spread dots around like a Lock or Spriest? How many dots do you want? How do you change the spec to use them? As it stands, all 3 specs played the same between amount of buttons and how you pressed them, albeit with minor differences in 1 being a CD vs 1 being a damage dealing button. Now, there is quite a difference between MM and BM, but how do you adjust SV?
    Just to compare. Let’s say you took today’s MM vs WoD’s SV. Basic abilities:
    MM). RF>AiS>AS>SS.
    SV). BA>ExS>AS (has to be a filler between CDs so I chose this to continue)>CS
    Now, the themes are different, but the playstyle is damn near exact, which is how I’ve stated the 3 specs used to be. So, how do you change SVs playstyle to be different like Blizzard wants?
    Going back to the fundamentals of a range dot spec, how do you change SV to accommodate it? Do you increase Focus regen to allow multidotting across spread targets? Do you differentiate playstyle by adding more dots, potentially differing traps to throw at locations which can add button bloat? Or maybe give charges to traps so you can throw multiple Explosive/Fire traps around the room on a CD? Or do you give infinite traps to make it more dot like? This would be like how a Warlock or Spriest just relies on mana, even though it’s basically infinite.
    There’s a lot to consider, and there’s no guarantee that people would still like the spec in that fashion.
    I think Survival could be amazing if it was build around explosive shot and serpent sting. This would of course require those two abilities to have much more depth, complexity and synergy with the rest of the spec. I think target switching is an important part of a dot spec so I don't like the idea of multishot simply spreading serpent sting. That's boring (in my opinion).

    I would like to see explosive shot be an ability that had great synergy with our traps while serpent sting should be a complex dot which you could enhance by playing well. The dot should not just be a "use and forget" dot. It should be something which you actively improved and which would require excellent target management in AOE situations. In my opinion.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I meant in terms of playstyle/gameplay. Not fantasy . Yes the theme and fantasy of many abilities were fine, but they didn't really interact with each other. There was no complex synergy between the ability. You could basically use your abilities in a random order and they worked almost completely independ from each other. That's not fun and engaging game design in my opinion. And example of synergy I would like to see would for example be explosive shot being a detonator for your traps. So in an AOE situation you would throw down 2-3 'explosive traps' around your targets and you would use explosive shot to detonate them. That's just one single example. But that would at least create some synergy.
    Again, I agree with much here.

    Much of the problem with hunter specs in general back in WoD was how we had no options to actually further build on their respective themes. Due to the talent-design at the time.


    A few counter-examples:

    - If you check my suggested concept, you will notice the major CD and how it provides the option to spread DoTs as well as a build-up component.

    - You have the Mastery bonus effect: Neurotoxin, which is useful in multi-target scenarios as well as allowing you to focus on low-health targets. The end-goal? More damage ofc.

    - You also have the first tier talent: T.N.T. which allows you to change how Explosive Shot works on a fundamental level.
    Without that talent, you should be able to apply several Explosive charges onto the same enemy(as many as you have charges available).
    With that talent, you can instead focus on building active charges on individual targets for more sustained damage.

    - The talent: Viper Venom, allows you to focus more damage into specific targets, especially in multi-target scenarios.

    - The level 90 tier of talents is a tier with a focus on DoT-management in general. Allowing players to focus on different ways to manage DoTs, on ST as well as MT.

    - And finally, the level 100 tier. All 3 talents there are focused on how abilities and effects within the spec interact with one another. They all allow for very distinct choices to be made depending on the situation or just on personal taste for how you want to play.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    So again, I definitely think SV should be ranged. And I really like the potential fanatasy of SV. But I think the spec needs more complex mechanics and synergy compared to what it had in WOD. And to be frank with no disprect, I don't think your suggestions is enough. Changes like Serpent Sting increasing the base damage of Cobra Shot is a bit lackluster in my opinion.
    It's not just about 1 thing. It's about the combination of it all.

    ---
    Heck, compare the specs we have on live atm. If you look at BM you have things like:

    Killer Instict(talent) - Increases the damage dealt by Kill Command on low-health targets.

    Scent of Blood(talent) - Barbed Shot generates more Focus.

    Animal Companion(talent) - Is essentially a passive damage boost. Nothing more.

    Venomous Bite(talent) - Cobra Shot reduces the remaining CD of Bestial Wrath by 1 sec.

    We haven't even mentioned all the stand-alone abilities you can get through talents as BM. All of them are just "use this on CD", and nothing else. No interactions whatsoever. Sure, some things are changing in SL, but not by a whole lot.

    ---

    Having said that, what would you consider to be more complex interactions?


    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I think Survival could be amazing if it was build around explosive shot and serpent sting. This would of course require those two abilities to have much more depth, complexity and synergy with the rest of the spec. I think target switching is an important part of a dot spec so I don't like the idea of multishot simply spreading serpent sting. That's boring (in my opinion).

    I would like to see explosive shot be an ability that had great synergy with our traps while serpent sting should be a complex dot which you could enhance by playing well. The dot should not just be a "use and forget" dot. It should be something which you actively improved and which would require excellent target management in AOE situations. In my opinion.
    Multi-Shot does not spread Serpent Sting. It simply applies it.

    It's just the basic AoE for RSV. Much like how Beast Cleave is the base for BM. Or Carve for MSV.

    As for Explosive Shot and SrS(and in my concept, Black Arrow), that part is exactly what the major CD would accomplish, along with several other talent options, which I suggested. Part from the thing about traps. Many players don't want a heavy focus on traps for damage.
    Last edited by F Rm; 2020-09-25 at 04:20 PM.

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