[Suggestions updated] Pre-Legion/Ranged Survival

[F Rm]

This is NOT a "Remove melee-survival in favor of this"-thread.

I'm very aware that there are people who like the melee-spec we got with Legion. And I agree, you should not remove it.
This post is intended to be about "if we could get it back in as a 4th spec".


We all have different opinions on what should've happened at the time.


Personally, I would very much love to see a playable version of the past, ranged survival spec we had prior to Legion.
For anyone who might want to read, below you'll find my thoughts/ideas on what I would want for ranged Survival, in case we could get it with a spec fantasy/identity-based version, much like how all other specs got overhauled at the end of Warlords of Draenor.


Edit: Several things have changed since I first posted this concept(much due to feedback from comments and more). For anyone who might be interested in a brief summary, feel free to check the original post(at the bottom there's a changelog-section)

Link: https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...4th-spec/47579

Core abilities

Cobra Shot - A fast shot that deals X% of weapon damage as Physical damage.
Generates 7 Focus. Instant cast.

Explosive Shot - You fire an explosive charge into the enemy target, dealing Fire damage. The charge will blast the target every second for an additional 4sec.
2 charges. 10 sec recharge.

Serpent Sting - Fire a shot that poisons your target, causing them to take Nature damage over 15 sec.

Black Arrow - Fire a Black Arrow at the target, dealing Shadow damage over 12 sec.

Quick Shot - Deals X% weapon damage as Physical damage. Costs 25 Focus.

Immolation Trap - When triggered, causes periodic Fire damage to the target over 20 seconds. 1 minute cooldown.

Note: Some talent choices affect how often you can use it along with what it does.

Multi-Shot - Fires several missiles, hitting your current target and all enemies within 8 yards for X% weapon damage as Physical damage.
Multi-Shot applies the Serpent Spread(Passive) -effect to all targets hit.

Note: The idea is that this is not something you use constantly but only as a way to maintain Serpent Sting on multiple targets.

Major Cooldown

Rapid Fire - Increases your haste by X% and instantly triggers Lock & Load, granting you a free charge of Explosive Shot.

Explosive Shots fired during Rapid Fire will reset the remaining cooldown of Black Arrow, and the periodic damage effect applied by Black Arrow can now be stacked up to 3 times.

If you fire Explosive Shot into an enemy affected by Black Arrow, while Rapid Fire is still active, this will cause the periodic damage effect applied by Black Arrow to spread to nearby enemies as well.
Rapid fire lasts for 20 seconds. 2 minute cooldown.

Due to some recent feedback, I've decided to add a replacement for the DoT-spread mechanic of Rapid Fire, when in instanced PvP.

Your Explosive Shot will no longer be able to automatically spread any periodic damage effect caused by Black Arrow. Instead, you now have an additional passive effect that is always active, regardless of if your Rapid Fire is or isn't.

If your Black Arrow is at any time dispelled or otherwise removed from an enemy target, you will instantly gain a free charge of Black Arrow.

Note: This is not a CD reset mechanic. This works like Lock and Load does for Explosive Shot, that it would add an extra charge of Black Arrow on top of what you already have.

Mastery Bonus

Mastery Bonus: Neurotoxin

Black Arrow increases all damage you deal to the affected target by X%(based on your Mastery).

When Black Arrow is about to expire from an enemy, there's a X% chance that it's duration will instead reset back to full(also based on your Mastery).

Passive effects

Lock and Load - Periodic damage caused by Black Arrow and Immolation Trap have a chance to add 1 extra charge of Explosive Shot which will consume no focus when fired.

Getting a proc from Lock & Load, won't affect the base re-charge system of Explosive Shot.
Example: If you have 2 charges of Explosive Shot available and you get a L&L-proc, you will then have 3 charges. 1 of which costs no Focus.
Keep in mind that L&L has a limited duration.
When the buff expires, so does any extra charge(s) that you haven't yet used.

Enhanced Traps/Trap Mastery
-Gain the Immolation Trap ability.

-Tar applied by Tar Trap can now be set on fire by Immolation Trap, causing any enemy who stands in it to take increasing damage over time for it’s duration/as long as the enemy stands in it.

-The trigger radius as well as the radius of the effect on your Tar Trap is increased by 25%.

-Freezing Trap can now be triggered manually by the hunter once placed, causing it to form a fragile Ice Block that you can stand behind to protect yourself from frontal attacks until shattered. The ice block shatters after 8 seconds or once it has taken enough damage.
Manually triggering it requires you to stand in close vicinity to the trap.

Serpent's Focus - Using Cobra Shot several times in a row will increase the amount of focus gained from each shot by 4. Stacking up to 3 times.

Serpent Spread - Targets hit by Multi-Shot are also afflicted by Serpent Sting equal to 9 sec of it’s duration.

Exotic Munitions - Your auto attacks have a chance to increase the remaining duration of either Serpent Sting, Black Arrow or Immolation Trap by 5 seconds on an enemy affected by either of these periodic damage effects.

Note: When a proc occurs, it can only increase the duration of one of the above mentioned periodic damage effects at a time.

Other abilities

Aspect of the Turtle - Works like it currently does on live.
Aspect of the Cheetah - Works like it currently does on live.
Exhilaration - Works like it currently does on live.
Call Pet - Works like it currently does on live.
…along with other abilities such as Counter Shot, Concussive Shot, Mend Pet and more…

Talents

-Level 15-

Ever Burning - If you fire Explosive Shot into an enemy already affected by a previous charge, the previous charge's remaining duration is refreshed as well as increased by an additional 3 seconds. An active charge can only have a max duration of 9 seconds.

Exotic Munitions-procs now also increases the remaining duration of any active Explosive Shot charge you have on the current target by 3 seconds.

Toxicology - Increases the periodic critical damage of your Explosive Shot, Serpent Sting, and Black Arrow by 25%, and Serpent Sting now deals increased damage against targets below 30% health.

Dire Frenzy - Replaces Quick Shot. Causes your pet to enter a frenzy, performing a flurry of 5 attacks against the target.
This will enrage your pet, and if Dire Frenzy is cast again before the Enrage fades, the damage dealt is increased by 100%.
Enrage lasts for 12 seconds.
3 charges. 8 second recharge time. Costs 35 Focus. Requires an active pet.


-Level 25-

Death Adder - Any time Serpent Sting is applied, it will instantly deal an additional 20% of it's total damage.
This effect also applies to Serpent Spread(Passive). In addition, every time Serpent Sting deals damage, you have a chance to gain 3 focus.

If the passive effect "Exotic Munitions" procs while your Serpent Sting is active on the target, then this will also trigger the Death Adder-effect.
Requires the Death Adder-talent.

Alpha Predator - Whenever your pet hits an enemy, it gains 2% increased attack speed.
When at or above 30% increased attack speed, your pet's attacks have a high chance (equal to the amount of increased attack speed) to automatically trigger a Dire Frenzy-attack. Also triggering the Enrage-effect.
Requires an active pet.
When a Dire Frenzy-attack is triggered by Alpha Predator, you instantly gain 10 Focus but lose the increased attack speed on your pet.

Note: Using the ability Dire Frenzy(the talent) will not grant you the extra Focus, nor will it cause your pet to lose the increased attack speed.
The interaction between this talent and the Dire Frenzy-talent above is the ability to more easily maintain the Enrage-buff on your pet.

Viper Venom - Every time Serpent Sting deals damage, there is a chance that your next Serpent Sting will consume no focus and deal 75% additional damage over it’s duration.
This effect can stack up to 4 times but will be consumed the next time Serpent Sting is used.

Note: This talent does not provide you with extra focus if picked, the goal is that, if you have this talent then basically all casts of Serpent Sting will be free.


-Level 30-
Utility talents, same as on live: Trailblazer, Natural Mending, Camouflage.


-Level 35-

Ferocious Inspiration - Dire Frenzy now deals damage to all nearby enemies.

Note: Dire Frenzy-attacks that proc thanks to the Alpha Predator-talent, will benefit from Ferocious Inspiration as well. The talent Dire Frenzy, is not required for Ferocious Inspiration to affect Alpha Predator.

Wildfire - The periodic damage effect applied by Immolation Trap will now spread to any enemy standing in close range to an already burning target.
As long as an enemy is within range of another enemy affected by Wildfire or Immolation Trap, the Wildfire will continue to spread.
Will ignore CC'd targets. Wildfire lasts for 8 seconds.

T.N.T. - Explosive Shot now deals damage to all enemies near the affected target.


-Level 40-
Utility talents, same as on live: Born to be Wild, Posthaste, Binding Shot.


-Level 45-

Spitting Cobra - Cobra Shot now deals an additional X% damage as Nature damage and extends the remaining duration of Serpent Sting on the enemy target by X sec.
In addition, Cobra Shot now has a high chance of generating double Focus when fired.

Note: You can continue to extend the duration of any Serpent Sting-debuff for as long as you want to. However, you can not manually extend the duration of a Serpent Sting-debuff above the baseline 15 second duration.

Pre-Heat - The cooldown of Immolation Trap is reduced by 5 seconds every time Immolation Trap deals critical damage to the enemy target. In addition, if an enemy target dies while affected by Immolation Trap, it’s cooldown is reset.

Note: This effect only applies to the enemy who triggers your Immolation Trap. Not to enemies affected by Wildfire(talent).

Intoxication - Your ranged Auto Attacks have a chance to grant you 2 stacks of Intoxication. Lasts for X seconds.
When Black Arrow expires from an enemy, you gain this effect as well.

- Intoxication
Causes your abilities that deal instant damage, to be guaranteed critical strikes.
And causes your abilities that deal periodic damage to last for an additional X seconds, and critical damage caused by these abilities is increased by an additional X%.



-Level 50-

Rapid Recuperation - Damage caused by Explosive Shot have a chance to reduce the remaining cooldown of Rapid Fire by 1 second.
Whenever Lock & Load procs, this causes the next Explosive Shot fired to have a 100% chance for each of it's ticks to reduce the remaining cooldown of Rapid Fire by 1 second.

Catalysis - Black Arrow increases any Fire-damage you deal to an enemy by X%. This effect lasts for 10 seconds.
In addition, Explosive Shot-charges granted by Lock & Load extends the remaining duration of Black Arrow by 1 second every time they deal damage to the affected target.

Resourcefulness - Reduces the cooldown of all traps and Black Arrow by 20%. Your Freezing Trap and Tar Trap both have a 100% chance to proc Lock & Load when triggered.

Freezing Trap when triggered manually can now withstand 100% more incoming damage before shattering.

When an enemy breaks free from your Freezing Trap, they will take an additional 10% damage from all sources for the next X seconds.

Critical hits from Immolation Trap causes an additional X% damage to the affected target.

Set Bonus effects/Bonus Traits

Got no good names for these traits/bonuses yet but…

Just wanted to add in some potential fun bonus effects that are spec specific. They can be tied to things such as Set Bonuses or something similar to Artifact Traits/Azerite Traits.
In what way we can get these, depends on what e.g. progression-system we get ofc.

Examples:

(1) Lock and Load now grants 2 charges of Explosive Shot when it procs, instead of 1.


(2) When you get a Exotic Munitions-proc. It will grant you an additional bonus effect depending on which periodic damage-effect it benefits.

Serpent Sting - Until the current Serpent Sting debuff expires or is refreshed, every time it deals damage to the target, you instantly gain 3 Focus.

Black Arrow - The remaining cooldown of Black Arrow is instantly reset.

Immolation Trap - Your next Immolation Trap will deal an extra X% damage and will also have an increased X% chance to critically hit the affected target.


(3) -Removed-


(4) Quick Shot now triggers the passive effect "Exotic Munitions" when it hits an enemy target.

[Deshi]

Darn you! You made me nostalgic with this, I miss SV so much! I approve this spec fantasy!

[Bepples]

I like this a lot. I do think a couple of things in the talents should be baseline instead. I also think the spec should avoid having to use traps as part of the main rotation. There also are a lot of pet aspects which I think shouldn't be involved with SV.

I had posted my own suggestion for ranged Survival on the official forums.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ples-barthilas

I didn't decide what talents it should have, but the gist of it was this:

- Black Arrow was renamed to Charged Shot and rebranded as an electric-themed ability. I feel this better fits the spec. It would still give Lock and Load procs and cost a pretty hefty amount of focus (~30 or so).
- Lock and Load would more resemble what it was in the early WoD beta. It would make the next Explosive Shot not consume a cooldown but it would still cost focus. It would also proc more frequently and stack higher than 2 times. This makes LnL charges a core resource of the spec rather than a mere proc, and Explosive Shot becomes the primary focus spender, removing the need for Arcane Shot/Quick Focus
- Explosive Shot would itself work as it used to with a 15 or 20 focus cost
- Serpent Sting would be similar to how it is now, costing 15 focus and having no CD. The initial tick should be baseline, which I think differs from your concept.
- On that note, Serpent Spread should also be baseline.
- Serpent Sting ticks should passively grant focus for the first 5 targets afflicted by it. Looks like you had this as a talent. I think it should be baseline because of its interaction with Charged Shot.
- Serpent Sting ticks should also have a chance to take 3 seconds off the remaining cooldown of Charged Shot. Combining this and the last passive means SV would scale up well with multiple targets. It would generate more focus and get more CDR on Charged Shots, allowing more Charged Shots going out and therefore more Lock and Load and more Explosive Shots. This interaction where multidotting buffs single-target DPS is a pretty powerful dynamic that very few specs have nowadays.
- Wildfire Bomb should still exist. In order to give it a proper purpose in the rotation, it should give 2 charges of Lock and Load. It should also be a proper radial AoE instead of a cone.
- My idea for the primary cooldown was Expose Weakness, which increases Lock and Load proc chance by 100% and reduces all focus costs by 50%, but I'm rethinking that. I really liked your CD suggestion. It should be something that is useful for both single-target and AoE and doesn't depend too much on multidotting.
- Focus generation: I'm still torn on Steady Shot but I think it will suffice.
- Pet interaction: as minimal as MM, to be honest; it should be able to summon a pet when it wants to but there's no reason to base talents on it and certainly not any main ability. Lone Wolf should be on the table.

I haven't put much thought into the talents, but some of your suggestions are pretty nice. Explosive Shot having splash damage is pretty neat and it reminds me of how the original iteration worked. I like the idea of igniting a tar trap as well but I wouldn't want to have to use another trap to do that. Wildfire Bomb should do it. Existing talents like Wildfire Infusion, Viper's Venom, and Guerilla Tactics would be good, as well as old ones like Exotic Munitions and Caltrops. Ultimately there should be talents for a variety of situations including pure ST, burst AoE, and multidotting. When desigining a multidotting spec you need to take into account situations where multidotting isn't available. One of the things that screwed over SV in WoD was how they put all their eggs in the "sustained single-target" basket and then introduced a tier that depended heavily on priority burst and 2-minute cooldowns.

[melzas]

So basically mm+bm mix. Not a fan. Current survival is perfect, good thing ranged surv was scrapped.

I know it's fun to create fan fiction so I can see where you are coming from, but survival will never be ranged again. Its time to move on.

[Skildar]

So basically mm+bm mix. Not a fan. Current survival is perfect, good thing ranged surv was scrapped.

I know it's fun to create fan fiction so I can see where you are coming from, but survival will never be ranged again. Its time to move on.

exactly this ^

[Shelly]

Only change hunters really need is a 4th spec added for tanking based around splitting damage with your pet using Rexxar as a template.

[threads]

too many pet talents, they would work for BM though.

add caltrops, chakrams, and maybe even sidewinder from legion in there.

[Kaver]

Sounds like another boring faceroll spec like BM with all instant casts and full mobility. What’s the point of having 3 different dps specs if they are all very similar. It would fit the hunter well to have at least one spec that is just a little bit engaging to play. BM is almost just an auto-attack spec.

- - - Updated - - -

So basically mm+bm mix. Not a fan. Current survival is perfect, good thing ranged surv was scrapped.

I know it's fun to create fan fiction so I can see where you are coming from, but survival will never be ranged again. Its time to move on.

I agree 100 %.

All this “make survival ranged again” is getting pathetic.

[Devilyaki]

Miss the spec so much

[Kaver]

I had posted my own suggestion for ranged Survival on the official forums.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ples-barthilas

Survival is great as a melee spec.

In my opinion, your suggestion doesn’t make sense at all. It’s a really bad idea. An epic fail actually.

[Bepples]

So basically mm+bm mix. Not a fan. Current survival is perfect, good thing ranged surv was scrapped.

Current Survival literally has BM elements copy-pasted into it. What exactly do you think melee offers? Melee is the reason that is the case.

I know it's fun to create fan fiction so I can see where you are coming from, but survival will never be ranged again. Its time to move on.

If Survival will never be ranged again, it will also never again be widely accepted and enjoyed by Hunters. It's time to accept that melee is a problem.

Only change hunters really need is a 4th spec added for tanking based around splitting damage with your pet using Rexxar as a template.

Congratulations on coming up with an even worse idea than melee Survival. We do not need or want a tank spec.

Sounds like another boring faceroll spec like BM with all instant casts and full mobility. What’s the point of having 3 different dps specs if they are all very similar. It would fit the hunter well to have at least one spec that is just a little bit engaging to play. BM is almost just an auto-attack spec.

Surprise, surprise, you're derailing another thread with "HUNTERS ARE DUMB!". Get over yourself. Equating cast times to difficulty is utter nonsense. Multidotting and maintaining multiple buffs/debufs and charges takes skill no matter what.

[Shelly]

Congratulations on coming up with an even worse idea than melee Survival. We do not need or want a tank spec.

Thank you for the constructive feedback. You truly are a master of informative conversation and I am so happy that you were willing to martyr yourself by letting your opinions be the standard by which all hunter opinions should be gauged.

[F Rm]

Haha, cheers Deshi! This was very much part of my goal when creating this topic.

[Gatto]

Even though I do miss the old surv style ( and different pet mechanics )

So basically mm+bm mix. Not a fan. Current survival is perfect, good thing ranged surv was scrapped.

I know it's fun to create fan fiction so I can see where you are coming from, but survival will never be ranged again. Its time to move on.

I have to strongly agree with melzas.

At first I was not so into Surv Melee spec, but it's definitely good and fun.

I am a little in trouble with MM spec because is slightly static if compared to surv/bm ( still didn't try it, but i definitely will ).

[Uriel]

Thats a spec i would play. I always saw surv as a hybrid between caster elemental damage with physical hunter mechanics. I miss the old spec.

I always though BM should be melee tank spec, with the pet soaking the damage.

[F Rm]

First off, sry for the long reply. Damn, so much to reflect on already!

- Black Arrow was renamed to Charged Shot and rebranded as an electric-themed ability. I feel this better fits the spec. It would still give Lock and Load procs and cost a pretty hefty amount of focus (~30 or so).

I thought a few times about adding the electric/lightning theme into the spec but in the end I decided to keep the core as it used to be. I never had anything against Black Arrow(part from it needing a name change to fit even if you were to use a gun). I've seen some comments in the past saying that ranged survival should not rely so much on magic damage. When they refer to for example Black Arrow, my initial thoughts always went to: While Black Arrow as an ability that dealt Shadow damage, it wasn't really meant to be an actual spell cast but more so it was you, applying a self-mixed toxin that you would coat your bullets/arrows in.

- Lock and Load would more resemble what it was in the early WoD beta. It would make the next Explosive Shot not consume a cooldown but it would still cost focus. It would also proc more frequently and stack higher than 2 times.

I was on a longer break at the time(through most of MoP really) and came back fairly late into the beta process. This meant I did not see the early stages of the WoD beta. I'm basing most of this on memory alone so, please forgive me if something is not accurate as it has been a while.

Back then, when we got a L&L-proc we basically got an external buff with a limited duration. That buff had 2 charges built in that allowed you to use Explosive Shot twice before the buff disappeared and Explosive Shot would once again go on CD.

With todays design of L&L that gives you 1 charge of ability X when it procs(as it does in MM currently), the effect on it's own might not be as impactful as it used to be. Although with the compensation of you now having 2 charges baseline on ability X this raises the base level at which you are allowed to chose how/when to use it to get the most out of it.

Back then, your gameplay with Explosive Shot was mostly, use-whenever-not-on-CD and make sure you use it asap so you don't waste time.

My idea with the design suggestions above is: letting Explosive Shot as a base, be fairly straight forward. Use it to deal damage to an opponent and make sure you do not cap out on charges. Having 2 charges would allow for a bit higher burst damage as opposed to the old version with a lower CD.

Add to this the T.N.T-talent that turns your gameplay with Explosive Shot into you wanting to stack the DoT as high as possible as it basically gives you free uptime when done correctly(3 sec extra per application). Now the actual numbers are not set in stone as I can't test them to see if they are correct.
With this gameplay you want to sometimes delay using Explosive Shot a bit in order to once you start, build it up as high as possible. If you also count in the bonus passive of that talent, the interaction with Exotic Ammunitions(passive), you could potentially build Explosive Shot up to be quite a heavy DoT. And if done so, you would also have more time to use upcoming Explosive Shots on enemies other than your main target if so are present.

The initial tick should be baseline, which I think differs from your concept.

It would differ a bit yes. My idea with the design behind the Death Adder -talent is to cater towards a fantasy(reality) of some snakes that rely more on their initial bite rather than the actual venom left behind. Now, I added this bonus to instant damage to this talent purely because I felt that it was the best place to do so. And it also allowed me to add in some more interaction with the Exotic Ammunitions-passive. which is something I wanted to do.

On that note, Serpent Spread should also be baseline.

Serpent Spread would be there baseline. You can find it in the Passive Effects section.
Serpent Spread's involvement with this talent is again, mostly there for you to get some extra instant damage going when it's time to AoE. Which means that even if the enemies die before you get the full benefit from the DoT applied, you would still get some extra damage out.

- Serpent Sting ticks should passively grant focus for the first 5 targets afflicted by it. Looks like you had this as a talent. I think it should be baseline because of its interaction with Charged Shot.

My idea with the passive focus regen was there to allow you to benefit more from it depending on the number of enemies you were fighting. As all talents on that "row" have some sort of focus regen or way to not consume focus built into them. This was the option I chose to be the straight forward/passive one. As some people want this.

- Serpent Sting ticks should also have a chance to take 3 seconds off the remaining cooldown of Charged Shot. Combining this and the last passive means SV would scale up well with multiple targets. It would generate more focus and get more CDR on Charged Shots, allowing more Charged Shots going out and therefore more Lock and Load and more Explosive Shots.

I decided to have this(multiple targets involvement) tied to your major cooldown. As depending on the encounter this would allow for more decision-making on when your major CD should be used or not. For those that don't want to rely so heavily on the correct timing of Rapid Fire, you have the talent Rapid Recuperation that would essentially take away aprox 40% of the Rapid Fire CD, every time.
With my design choice, during Rapid Fire, as your Explosive Shot spreads Black Arrow(Charged Shot) to nearby enemies this would be the L&L component tied in as well. And as your intent during Rapid Fire would be to stack the DoT on Black Arrow up to max(3 times) to then spread to nearby enemies for full damage. Can be quite rewarding if done well.

This interaction where multidotting buffs single-target DPS is a pretty powerful dynamic that very few specs have nowadays.

Idd, and I believe both our versions have elements of this. I like it as well as this is something the current hunter specs don't really have.

I've also added in the Viper Venom-talent that even further builds on this concept. As in you begin with applying serpent sting(serpent spread) to all targets and this would build up your next Serpent Sting used manually, quite a bit. We also have some passive Execute-style elements built in to the spec, either through Mastery Bonuses or through talents. It's really all about what you would prefer.

- Wildfire Bomb should still exist. In order to give it a proper purpose in the rotation, it should give 2 charges of Lock and Load. It should also be a proper radial AoE instead of a cone.

I've noticed the confusion in the comments. My intention with this was never to force the "Make Survival Ranged again vs. Let Survival stay melee" situation. I don't want Melee-Survival to be removed as I know several people who like it. They(devs) made this mistake when they first removed ranged Survival. I believe you should NOT completely delete aspects of a class in favor of something new. At least not when it would have such a major impact as it did.

I really liked your CD suggestion. It should be something that is useful for both single-target and AoE and doesn't depend too much on multidotting.

This was very much the idea behind it. A major CD designed both with ST as well as AoE in mind without making it to complicated. Giving is some additional fun gameplay elements. Basically, you apply multiple Black Arrows to a single target in order to stack up the damage to then spread it to nearby enemies(you also spread it to nearby enemies before it has stacked up higher ofc.). It is a version of AoE+multi-dot'ing but it's mostly done in a passive way.

- Focus generation: I'm still torn on Steady Shot but I think it will suffice.

I was a bit as well. In the end I did put it in there but also put in Cobra Shot as a "talented", instant cast, nature based ability. I'm not a big fan of casting so this is my way of putting an alternative in there.

- Pet interaction: as minimal as MM, to be honest; it should be able to summon a pet when it wants to but there's no reason to base talents on it and certainly not any main ability.

Initially, I was a bit torn on this. Personally I like playing with a pet. In the end, I went this way as we do have Marksmanship which is intended to be the "petless" spec.

You have the talents(that relies on a pet):
Dire Frenzy(only affecting your minor focus spender).
Alpha Predator(mostly passive).
Ferocious Inspiration(has both active as well as passive elements).
The Beast Within(more interaction between your pet and your ability usage, but still based on your damage, not your pet's damage).
Rapid Recuperation(On it's own a passive effect that ties to your major CD, which in itself is pretty much all about you and what you do).

Now, these are Talents and you don't have to pick/play with them if you don't want to.
Baseline, you have very little interaction with your pet. It's basically a passive DoT.

In the end, what things we like and what ones we do not...it's all personal preferences really. I very much get that some don't want much to do with their pets beyond having it there to tank solo stuff. Hence why anything extra involving your pet is optional(talent-based) and not there baseline.

On a final note: to anyone saying that they are tired of the "make survival great again" arguments etc. I totally get you. I have not written this as a way to argue for it. I want to bring the old Survival-style back as a stand-alone additional option(a 4th spec).

[valky94]

imo BM should have been made into the melee spec, and suv should have stayed a range pet spec, with poisons, traps, bombs,

replace raptor strike with cobra shot, mongoose bite with chimaera shot (same mechanic with the dmg increase, just name change) and so on and vice versa for BM

[Kaver]

Surprise, surprise, you're derailing another thread with "HUNTERS ARE DUMB!". Get over yourself. Equating cast times to difficulty is utter nonsense. Multidotting and maintaining multiple buffs/debufs and charges takes skill no matter what.

Of course having cast time complicates things on movement fights in mythic raids. Arguing otherwise is just embarrassing. Cast time requires you to plan your placement a lot more and result in a more risky gameplay where you often have to decide if you should interupt your cast or not. By not having cast time you get a much more careless gameplay and you never have to worry about your placement.

And on top of no cast time and unlimited mobility, BM has no mechanics other than pressing Barbed Shot when your weak aura tells you to. Pressing KC on cooldown and using CS to not cap focus is completely indifferent. If Blizzard removed all abilities beside Barbed Shot it would not make the spec any easier because all those abilities add nothing to the gameplay.

If hunters got ONE spec that was topping the dps charts based on being ranged with unlimited mobility and just auto-attacking (almost BM) they would be happy. There are no need for hunters to have two brain dead specs with the same type of brain dead gameplay. They should keep Survival melee or remove it completely.

[F Rm]

Of course having cast time complicates things on movement fights in mythic raids. Arguing otherwise is just embarrassing. Cast time requires you to plan your placement a lot more and result in a more risky gameplay where you often have to decide if you should interupt your cast or not. By not having cast time you get a much more careless gameplay and you never have to worry about your placement.

And on top of no cast time and unlimited mobility, BM has no mechanics other than pressing Barbed Shot when your weak aura tells you to. Pressing KC on cooldown and using CS to not cap focus is completely indifferent. If Blizzard removed all abilities beside Barbed Shot it would not make the spec any easier because all those abilities add nothing to the gameplay.

If hunters got ONE spec that was topping the dps charts based on being ranged with unlimited mobility and just auto-attacking (almost BM) they would be happy. There are no need for hunters to have two brain dead specs with the same type of brain dead gameplay. They should keep Survival melee or remove it completely.

I would not go as far as to say that BM and the above suggestions for a ranged Survival inspired spec would be similar to one another. Yes, they would both be 100% mobile(part from the level 100 talent Resourcefulness). But that's about as far as it goes in terms of similarities.

BM is a spec that is all about the right combo of your various CDs and optimal pet management/placement along with resource management. Near 100% of it's damage is instant. You have no real way to do proper cleave damage or multi-dot.

As opposed to ranged survival(w/e the spec should be called really), that with my design only have 1 CD and the rest is all about proper management of DoTs and building them up. You have some talents focusing on your pet but they are mostly tied to the minor focus spender. Those that aren't, are passives. I put those in so that anyone who likes to play with pets can do so. Beyond just having it auto attack enemies.

Besides, my intent here was never to remove melee survival in favor of the above. My hope was for this to be a 4th spec. With a fantasy on ammunition/arrow enhancement and DoTs.

[Bepples]

Thank you for the constructive feedback. You truly are a master of informative conversation and I am so happy that you were willing to martyr yourself by letting your opinions be the standard by which all hunter opinions should be gauged.

Cry about it. Hunter tanks are a terrible idea. Pet-based tanking would be atrocious. Pets are infamously unreliable so relying on one for any sort of tanking would be bad. Yet the same time that's the only thing that would make a Hunter tank unique at all and not just Protection Warrior 2.0. So it's shit either way. Simply splitting damage with the pet would still be awful because then your healer would have to maintain the health of two targets instead of one.

Ignoring the mechanical problems, it's a shit idea for class identity too. Hunters are the exact opposite of the "deliberately draw attention to myself and take hits to the face" type. Why do you think we have misdirect? How the fuck is Rexxar of all characters a template for a TANK? You people really do think screeching "Rexxar" into a thread constitutes an argument, don't you?

I have NEVER seen a proposal that isn't utterly contemptable, and yours is no different. Wasting untold amount of time and effort for such a dumpster fire of an idea as a 4th spec is a total non-starter. Keep it to yourself, please.

Survival is great as a melee spec.

Evidently not as no one cares to actually play it.

Also an interesting stance given your contempt of BM and the people who play it given that Survival depends on BM aspects specifically because it is melee.

Of course having cast time complicates things on movement fights in mythic raids. Arguing otherwise is just embarrassing. Cast time requires you to plan your placement a lot more and result in a more risky gameplay where you often have to decide if you should interupt your cast or not. By not having cast time you get a much more careless gameplay and you never have to worry about your placement.

And on top of no cast time and unlimited mobility, BM has no mechanics other than pressing Barbed Shot when your weak aura tells you to. Pressing KC on cooldown and using CS to not cap focus is completely indifferent. If Blizzard removed all abilities beside Barbed Shot it would not make the spec any easier because all those abilities add nothing to the gameplay.

If hunters got ONE spec that was topping the dps charts based on being ranged with unlimited mobility and just auto-attacking (almost BM) they would be happy. There are no need for hunters to have two brain dead specs with the same type of brain dead gameplay. They should keep Survival melee or remove it completely.

Firstly, congratulations on finding a way of derailing yet another unrelated thread into "BM bad and dumb".

Secondly, it's good to have at least one spec in the game that is fully mobile. It's an interesting niche, it makes sense for Hunters to have it, and it makes them stand out. You can find difficulty in places other than movement. For example, BM has a strong cooldown management aspect compared to most specs, especially when you have Rapid Reload. There's a big difference between a BM Hunter who can properly plan out their cooldowns v.s. one that can't. That's a skill cap, as much as you love to pretend it doesn't exist.

Thirdly, what the fuck are you going on about with this "Hunters want an easy spec" crap? No one actually asked for that. In fact, people specifically asked for the opposite when they pruned a bunch of our abilities. In the very opening post of this thread and my reply we are advocating for a spec that derives maximum DPS potential from multidotting i.e. managing debuffs on multiple targets as well as a unique personal spec resource. That's the exact opposite of asking for an easy spec. It's certainly much more involved than "Generic Melee Spec #13". It blows me away how people still pretend SV is a spec that takes a significant amount of skill. This isn't Legion anymore and SV has a 4-button rotation like every other spec. Sounds like you're the one demanding easy brainless melee gameplay.