[Suggestions updated] Pre-Legion/Ranged Survival

[F Rm]

We have now reached the point where you can't argue for your case anymore so you gone to personal attacks instead. I love it

Well. I will not stoop so Low. I will still base my arguments on facts and opinions. BM and the Survival mentioned here have the same boring lack-luster fundament based on:

- A rotation based on no mechanics. Just use whatever ability is ready based on a priority list and make a weakaura for barbed shot.
- Instant attacks / no cast time
- Unlimited mobility

Using one dot that requires no mechanic to build is not challenging what so ever and you probably still want the dot to be refreshed by multi-shot in AOE situations. Functioning like the plague dot of unholy DK that can be applied with one button. But you probably want it to be more powerful so you can be on the top of the damage meters by the press of one button. All the abilities you propose are based no mechanics which add no challenge. A boring spec which is way to easy to play. High performance with no effort.

I don't understand this mentality. It's like playing a game with cheat codes.

It so sad to see people put: easy over-powered gameplay = fun.

In my opinion: Challenging and engaging gameplay = fun.

But BM hunters just don't seem to like a challenge and want more specs which add no challenge. Sad I think.

If your playstyle involves DoT management that in itself requires DoTs to be built up for max efficiency, then this is by definition what can be called more advanced mechanics in terms of ability usage. Why? Because most specs that rely on DoTs, they are about hitting that one button, wait just a little for the cast to finish and then the DoT lands on the target. Nothing more.
Does this mean that this is how all specs and all their specific abilities work? Obviously not. But many do.

Just use whatever ability is ready based on a priority list and make a weakaura for barbed shot.

If you're still talking about BM then please stop. This thread is not about BM. This thread is not about melee Survival. And it's not about MM either.

- Instant attacks / no cast time

Which is the case of every single melee spec we have, including current melee Survival.

But you probably want it to be more powerful so you can be on the top of the damage meters by the press of one button.

Not sure where you got this from. The top post does not bring up anything at all really in terms of how much damage each ability should do.

just enjoying the fact people are still talking about pre-legion SV. blizz killed a truly great spec.

Oh yes they did!

They wouldn't even really need a 4th spec to give back ranged Survival, because the toolkit is so similar to Marksman they could bake it into talents. MM's Arcane Shot proc is already pretty close to how we used to play SV as it is, and Explosive Shot could be a solid replace talent for Aimed. Black Arrow could replace Rapid Fire even, assuming they aren't holding that for Dark Ranger.

Yep, getting it back through Marksmanship is one way to do it. Although it wouldn't have the same potential as a 4th spec would.

My take on the MM route for ranged Survival can be found here(but again, the DoT spec if you ask me deserves to be it's own):
https:// eu.forums.blizzard. com/en/wow/t/we-miss-old-survival-hunter-and-why-it-should-be-back/21056/69?u=briz-zenedar

This thread is getting off topic from the main point and has reached the point of insulting each other for wanting something in a game. Two main points I'd take from this thread though.
1. There are plenty of people who miss ranged SV. Though we may differ slightly in opinion how that spec should run, it is true, as said above, blizzard killed a truly great spec. Most of us aren't even saying to ixnay melee for it, just bring it back.
2. More complex rotations generally result in more fun. This, as mentioned above, is what we all want. Complex and mobility are different things. MM's difficulty comes in the form of hardcasting, not complexity. Though there really aren't too many ranged dps specs in the game i would even consider that complex, so I'm not sure where the argument that hunters are too easy anyway. Besides, blizzard has even said hunters should be one of the most mobile classes in the game. Again, that doesn't have to mean easiest. I'm sorry if the OP, or FpicEail, or myself can't come up with the perfect spec to fit what we all want. We aren't paid game designers. But these ideas are a great start to give us a spec back that A LOT of hunters want.

Those arguing against ranged SV. You're in the minority. Check the front page of any hunter forum and you will still, after 3 years, find multiple threads arguing for the return of ranged SV. If it's something you don't want, or don't care about, good for you. Stay off the threads. It's a game. If there are people that enjoy a spec more than you, who cares. If you think it's too similar to another spec, or to easy, or whatever, who cares. It doesn't hurt you for me to play a spec I enjoy, no matter how dumb you think that spec is.

1. Idd.

2a. Generally yes(although opinions vary as people are different, and they like differents things).
2b. No one can come up with the perfect spec for everybody. The perfect spec does not exist! If you ask 1 individual they might consider a particular spec to be perfect. But that's just one person. That does not mean the next 100 people you ask love the same spec. If paid game designers had the recipe for creating perfect specs, then we wouldn't really have the number of threads arguing for the return of ranged SV would we?

Check the front page of any hunter forum and you will still, after 3 years, find multiple threads arguing for the return of ranged SV.

Very true. New ones pop up every other day.

And if the people asking for it's return to be in the form of a 4th spec. Then what would be the actual problem?
I can see that putting it back through the MM spec, some might not like this as they prefer MM to be what it currently is.
I can very much see why those who like melee Survival, wouldn't want it to be removed. But, when we're not actually asking for this, but for a 4th spec. Why argue for it not to happen?

As far as spec uniqueness goes, you can find my comparison of the different hunter specs further up this page. It would be enough of a unique spec for it to be justified to be put into the game.

BM hunter is a ridiculous easy spec to play. It's not engaging at all and Blizzard should add some actual mechanics to it.

- Simple rotation which essentially is a priority list where you mostly just press the abilities off CD.
- Simple AOE rotation.
- No cast time abilities
- Unlimited movement
- No ressource management

The reason I keep bringing up BM is because they way Survival are described in this thread is like another boring spec with no elements of difficulty. I'm not sure why you keep mentioning Black arrow. It a boring ability you press every 30 second. If that is your idea of engaging gameplay then it's uphill from here.

The dot-system which is described in this thread is just boring and lacks complexity:

Serpent Sting - Instant cast, deals periodic damage. No CD with a fairly low Focus cost.
Black Arrow - Like it was prior to Legion. Instant cast. 30 sec CD. Deals periodic damage.
Serpent Spread - Targets hit by Multi-Shot are also afflicted by Serpent Sting equal to 7 sec of it’s duration.

How are those abilities engaging. It is so embarrassing to propose a spec that works like this. You just want all the best things of each class without putting any effort into it. You want to be able to multi-dot without switching targets. Black arrow is a 30 sec CD so essentially you would switch target every 30 second assuming the debuff lasted longer than 30 sec.

And again, the reason why I bring up BM is because you already have a boring brainless ranged spec. Why create another with Survival. Why do you insist on having multiple specs that can be played with no effort. It's so boring.

BM is not a particularly hard spec to play no.

But again, I ask you what you would consider to be difficult and not boring?

It also feels like you haven't actually read everything the spec would be about. Black Arrow as an example, in this spec wouldn't just be an ability you hit every 30sec and that would be it.

Besides, like you say yourself. It's the combination of everything that matters. You also have to count in the factor of game specific/fight specific mechanics and you have to count in all aspects of the game. PvE and PvP as well as open world content and more.

And you have to factor in the level of difficulty(LFR/Normal/HC/Mythic).
And that it(the spec) should be applicable to everyone playing the game. Not only the top players. But the new guy who started 2 weeks ago as well.

[Kaver]

If your playstyle involves DoT management that in itself requires DoTs to be built up for max efficiency, then this is by definition what can be called more advanced mechanics in terms of ability usage. Why? Because most specs that rely on DoTs, they are about hitting that one button, wait just a little for the cast to finish and then the DoT lands on the target. Nothing more.
Does this mean that this is how all specs and all their specific abilities work? Obviously not. But many do.



If you're still talking about BM then please stop. This thread is not about BM. This thread is not about melee Survival. And it's not about MM either.



Which is the case of every single melee spec we have, including current melee Survival.



Not sure where you got this from. The top post does not bring up anything at all really in terms of how much damage each ability should do.




Oh yes they did!




Yep, getting it back through Marksmanship is one way to do it. Although it wouldn't have the same potential as a 4th spec would.

My take on the MM route for ranged Survival can be found here(but again, the DoT spec if you ask me deserves to be it's own):
https:// eu.forums.blizzard. com/en/wow/t/we-miss-old-survival-hunter-and-why-it-should-be-back/21056/69?u=briz-zenedar




1. Idd.

2a. Generally yes(although opinions vary as people are different, and they like differents things).
2b. No one can come up with the perfect spec for everybody. The perfect spec does not exist! If you ask 1 individual they might consider a particular spec to be perfect. But that's just one person. That does not mean the next 100 people you ask love the same spec. If paid game designers had the recipe for creating perfect specs, then we wouldn't really have the number of threads arguing for the return of ranged SV would we?



Very true. New ones pop up every other day.

And if the people asking for it's return to be in the form of a 4th spec. Then what would be the actual problem?
I can see that putting it back through the MM spec, some might not like this as they prefer MM to be what it currently is.
I can very much see why those who like melee Survival, wouldn't want it to be removed. But, when we're not actually asking for this, but for a 4th spec. Why argue for it not to happen?

As far as spec uniqueness goes, you can find my comparison of the different hunter specs further up this page. It would be enough of a unique spec for it to be justified to be put into the game.




BM is not a particularly hard spec to play no.

But again, I ask you what you would consider to be difficult and not boring?

It also feels like you haven't actually read everything the spec would be about. Black Arrow as an example, in this spec wouldn't just be an ability you hit every 30sec and that would be it.

Besides, like you say yourself. It's the combination of everything that matters. You also have to count in the factor of game specific/fight specific mechanics and you have to count in all aspects of the game. PvE and PvP as well as open world content and more.

And you have to factor in the level of difficulty(LFR/Normal/HC/Mythic).
And that it(the spec) should be applicable to everyone playing the game. Not only the top players. But the new guy who started 2 weeks ago as well.

BM has no elements that can challenge the better players. It is clearly made for new players. It doesn't give anything to top players. No management. No mechanics. No real rotation. Nothing. Playing a BM hunter as a mythic raider is so boring.

And the way you describe describe the Survival spec in the thread is very similar. It also has no elements of challenge. It would not offer anything to the top players. You say:

"Black Arrow as an example, in this spec wouldn't just be an ability you hit every 30sec and that would be it."

But it almost is. You add no interesting mechanics to Black Arrow in your description. Most if the effects just happen passively and increase your damage of other abilities or gives you a charge of explosive shot. That's not engaging, complex or fun.

Most of the "mechanics" you have in your description are either passive or instant abilities used off CD. That's the most boring spec design ever. There is no niche other than being an OP easy spec to play that can do everything.

Your survival is the equivalent to the current proc trinkets in the game. Nothing happens in terms of gameplay when they proc. You don't even notice them. You just get an arbitrary damage boost.

[Bepples]

They wouldn't even really need a 4th spec to give back ranged Survival, because the toolkit is so similar to Marksman they could bake it into talents. MM's Arcane Shot proc is already pretty close to how we used to play SV as it is, and Explosive Shot could be a solid replace talent for Aimed. Black Arrow could replace Rapid Fire even, assuming they aren't holding that for Dark Ranger.

NO YOU COULDN'T.

MM and SV were entirely different specs with different identities and gameplay. You're effectively saying Arms and Fury are similar enough to be merged into one, or Affliction and Destruction, or Assassination and Subtlety. Taking all of the toolkit and interactions of ranged SV and representing them in MM has ALWAYS been utterly infeasible and a terrible idea.

BM hunter is a ridiculous easy spec to play. It's not engaging at all and Blizzard should add some actual mechanics to it.

Unlimited movement and no cast time should be compensated by some other challenging mechanics but with BM it is not. It the total package that makes BM a joke:

- Simple rotation which essentially is a priority list where you mostly just press the abilities off CD.
- Simple AOE rotation.
- No cast time abilities
- Unlimited movement
- No ressource management

I could have mistaken this for one of your 2000 older shitposts because the content is exactly the same. So I'll not waste time and be brief: cooldown, buff, and resource management

The combination of all those thing is what makes BM a boring spec. There is not one challenging element. Mobility and Instant casts are just some of the factors. Other spec also have easy elements to them, but then they have some restrictions to compensate. BM has not restriction and no elements of difficulty.

Cooldown management is a major challenging element of BM that you keep ignoring. Most other specs have one major CD that they just use whenever without a CDR. BM has 2 CDs, one with a baseline CDR and one with a trait CDR. PI also enhances AotW in interesting ways and actually changes your rotation. Doing M+ as BM with RR and PI is actually very engaging and requires thoughtful cooldown management for the entire dungeon. You should try it sometime.

The reason I keep bringing up BM is because they way Survival are described in this thread is like another boring spec with no elements of difficulty. I'm not sure why you keep mentioning Black arrow. It a boring ability you press every 30 second. If that is your idea of engaging gameplay then it's uphill from here.

Nope, you brought up BM because you get off on derailing Hunter threads to BM trolling. Nothing more to it. Evidently your whole purpose in life is derailing Hunter discussions.

Your point about Black Arrow perfectly demonstrates the pigheadedness I talk about. Both the OP's suggestion and my suggestion included a CDR for Black Arrow. This would mean multidotting with Serpent Sting would result in much more frequent Black Arrow casts, and therefore much more frequent Explosive Shot casts. This introduces a strong debuff management dynamic where executing that properly is very rewarding. Kind of like how BM's cooldown management is very rewarding to the player when they do it properly. You know, because they are actually challenging mechanics despite your ignorance of them.

The dot-system which is described in this thread is just boring and lacks complexity:

Serpent Sting - Instant cast, deals periodic damage. No CD with a fairly low Focus cost.
Black Arrow - Like it was prior to Legion. Instant cast. 30 sec CD. Deals periodic damage.
Serpent Spread - Targets hit by Multi-Shot are also afflicted by Serpent Sting equal to 7 sec of it’s duration.

How are those abilities engaging. It is so embarrassing to propose a spec that works like this. You just want all the best things of each class without putting any effort into it. You want to be able to multi-dot without switching targets. Black arrow is a 30 sec CD so essentially you would switch target every 30 second assuming the debuff lasted longer than 30 sec.

See above. Your entire argumentative approach is just strawmanning and ignorance. You're assuming what other people are saying and just responding to that instead of what they're actually saying. You just wrote paragraphs arguing against a Black Arrow implementation that doesn't even match any of our suggestions.

And again, the reason why I bring up BM is because you already have a boring brainless ranged spec. Why create another with Survival. Why do you insist on having multiple specs that can be played with no effort. It's so boring.

Who knows: why do you insist on deliberately ignoring our suggestions and arguments and attacking your own assumptions of what we are saying? Do you totally lack reading comprehension or do you just enjoy that?

BM has no elements that can challenge the better players. It is clearly made for new players. It doesn't give anything to top players. No management. No mechanics. No real rotation. Nothing. Playing a BM hunter as a mythic raider is so boring.

Cooldown management and Frenzy. Also, as OP said, this thread isn't about BM so take your whiny bullshit BM arguments somewhere else. Actually, don't do that. Keep them to yourself because no one cares for them.

And the way you describe describe the Survival spec in the thread is very similar. It also has no elements of challenge. It would not offer anything to the top players.

Multidotting is one of if not the most challenging mode of DPSing there is.

"Black Arrow as an example, in this spec wouldn't just be an ability you hit every 30sec and that would be it."

But it almost is. You add no interesting mechanics to Black Arrow in your description. Most if the effects just happen passively and increase your damage of other abilities or gives you a charge of explosive shot. That's not engaging, complex or fun.

Most of the "mechanics" you have in your description are either passive or instant abilities used off CD. That's the most boring spec design ever. There is no niche other than being an OP easy spec to play that can do everything.

Your survival is the equivalent to the current proc trinkets in the game. Nothing happens in terms of gameplay when they proc. You don't even notice them. You just get an arbitrary damage boost.

All of Frost Mage's procs are "passive effects". Is that also a brainless spec? Listen to yourself before speaking, for crying out loud. Passive effects ADD complexity to a spec. You're literally trying to equate every single passive to "+10% damage". Look at this one from my suggestion:

Opportunism: Serpent Sting ticks have a chance to reduce the remaining cooldown of Charged Shot by 3 seconds.

That is adding complexity to a spec. I specifically added it for that reason. I want to be able to multidot like other multidotting specs. I want that challenge. That is what we are pushing for, and that's what our suggestions represent. Current SV is largely everything you describe; all instant casts, little-to-no interaction between abilities, simple priority system. The only thing that adds any real complexity to the spec is the choice of level 100 talent. We want to do better than that. I don't understand why you keep defending such brainless specs as melee SV.

[Rustov]

Steady Shot should reapply an active Serpent Sting. I think that was fundamental to the old Survival Rotation. It was about balancing the many CDs against their focus needs as well as the need to refresh Serpent. It made the rotation about picking where to insert the necessary Cobras, which was both smooth and rewarding when done well.

[Kaver]

NO YOU COULDN'T.

MM and SV were entirely different specs with different identities and gameplay. You're effectively saying Arms and Fury are similar enough to be merged into one, or Affliction and Destruction, or Assassination and Subtlety. Taking all of the toolkit and interactions of ranged SV and representing them in MM has ALWAYS been utterly infeasible and a



I could have mistaken this for one of your 2000 older shitposts because the content is exactly the same. So I'll not waste time and be brief: cooldown, buff, and resource manageme



Cooldown management is a major challenging element of BM that you keep ignoring. Most other specs have one major CD that they just use whenever without a CDR. BM has 2 CDs, one with a baseline CDR and one with a trait CDR. PI also enhances AotW in interesting ways and actually changes your rotation. Doing M+ as BM with RR and PI is actually very engaging and requires thoughtful cooldown management for the entire dungeon. You should try it sometime.



Nope, you brought up BM because you get off on derailing Hunter threads to BM trolling. Nothing more to it. Evidently your whole purpose in life is derailing Hunter discussions.

Your point about Black Arrow perfectly demonstrates the pigheadedness I talk about. Both the OP's suggestion and my suggestion included a CDR for Black Arrow. This would mean multidotting with Serpent Sting would result in much more frequent Black Arrow casts, and therefore much more frequent Explosive Shot casts. This introduces a strong debuff management dynamic where executing that properly is very rewarding. Kind of like how BM's cooldown management is very rewarding to the player when they do it properly. You know, because they are actually challenging mechanics despite your ignorance of them.



See above. Your entire argumentative approach is just strawmanning and ignorance. You're assuming what other people are saying and just responding to that instead of what they're actually saying. You just wrote paragraphs arguing against a Black Arrow implementation that doesn't even match any of our suggestions.



Who knows: why do you insist on deliberately ignoring our suggestions and arguments and attacking your own assumptions of what we are saying? Do you totally lack reading comprehension or do you just enjoy that?



Cooldown management and Frenzy. Also, as OP said, this thread isn't about BM so take your whiny bullshit BM arguments somewhere else. Actually, don't do that. Keep them to yourself because no one cares for them.



Multidotting is one of if not the most challenging mode of DPSing there is.




All of Frost Mage's procs are "passive effects". Is that also a brainless spec? Listen to yourself before speaking, for crying out loud. Passive effects ADD complexity to a spec. You're literally trying to equate every single passive to "+10% damage". Look at this one from my suggestion:

Opportunism: Serpent Sting ticks have a chance to reduce the remaining cooldown of Charged Shot by 3 seconds.

That is adding complexity to a spec. I specifically added it for that reason. I want to be able to multidot like other multidotting specs. I want that challenge. That is what we are pushing for, and that's what our suggestions represent. Current SV is largely everything you describe; all instant casts, little-to-no interaction between abilities, simple priority system. The only thing that adds any real complexity to the spec is the choice of level 100 talent. We want to do better than that. I don't understand why you keep defending such brainless specs as melee SV.

1) Having 2 CDs that you essentially pop off CD is not complex. Delaying a CD by 15 secs is not complex. The gameplay while having the CDs active are not complex. You say PI change your playstyle in an interesting way?:

"Aspect of the Wild increases your Mastery by 1018, and grants you a charge of Barbed Shot."

How is that interesting? Is gaining a charge of barbed shot a fun and engaging mechanic that change your playstyle? Everything about BM is just so bland and boring.

You need 2 weakauras that light up and it's just boring uninspired gameplay. Barbed shot could be an engaging mechanic but it is not. You just make a weakaura that tells you when to push the button. Not complex or fun.

2) Opportunism: Serpent Sting ticks have a chance to reduce the remaining cooldown of Charged Shot by 3 seconds. Okay. So you can use Charged Shot more often. How does that make the spec more complex. It's still just a weakaura saying "Charged shot is now ready. Push it.". Essentially it's still just based on using an arbitrary ability off CD and that is not a good or fun mechanic.

3) Dots. Serpent sting would be applied and refreshed by multishot. You add serpent sting and let it rip. Not fun.
Black Arrow is 30 sec with a CDR. So how often would you approximately use it? It's still just a "press this button when ready" ability. Switching targets every 10-15 sec and applying a dot by just pressing one button is not engaging.

All the abilities you and others propose are all based on the same lack-luster mechanics of cool down reductions and procs. There are no management. There are no mechanics where you actively have to put in effort to buff your dots. Buffing dots by pressing an ability that is just a standard part of your rotation doesn't add anything new to the spec. It's still the exact same playstyle. It's all just "press this button when it light up". That is the most boring class design you can imagine. The survival spec you describe is so shallow. There is no depth to it at all.

[Dadwen]

Tried subbing for a bit in BFA, MM sucks *And never liked it (anyone that thinks MM and SV played the same is a good way to weed out what a moron they really are) and BM I could not stay awake while playing, losing my Ranged SV is the main reason I'm not subbed right now an a good chance I won't be again.

[Bepples]

1) Having 2 CDs that you essentially pop off CD is not complex. Delaying a CD by 15 secs is not complex. The gameplay while having the CDs active are not complex.

"BM has no mechanichs

<Names multiple mechanics and nuances>

"Those don't count!"

I can do the same bullshit regarding just about every spec in the game.

"Aspect of the Wild increases your Mastery by 1018, and grants you a charge of Barbed Shot."

How is that interesting? Is gaining a charge of barbed shot a fun and engaging mechanic that change your playstyle? Everything about BM is just so bland and boring.

Yes, actually. That spell giving a charge of Barbed Shot changes its priority, especially during the opener. The mastery mechanic is a big deal too. It turns AotW into a powerful AoE cooldown. Combined with Rapid Reload and you have 2 CDS on 2 different CDRs. Timing those correctly to maximise their effectiveness in M+ is actually very challenging and rewarding. That's why people have asked for those mechanics to be baseline. People do want challenge in BM. It has become more challenging since early Legion specifically because people asked for it to be so.

Also, you might think in your misinformed bubble that BM is bland and boring but the pets are actually a big selling point and pulling off a good CD cycle and coordinating with your pet to tear apart a trash mob is something that is very thematically and mechanically satisfying for a lot of people. What's really bland is Arms Warrior 2.0 A.K.A. Survival Hunter.

Maybe you would understand more if you had any investment/experience with BM at all, but you clearly don't and are speaking from a position of ignorance as per usual.

You need 2 weakauras that light up and it's just boring uninspired gameplay. Barbed shot could be an engaging mechanic but it is not. You just make a weakaura that tells you when to push the button. Not complex or fun.

You can make a weakaura for literally every single DPS mechanic in the game. Stupid argument.

2) Opportunism: Serpent Sting ticks have a chance to reduce the remaining cooldown of Charged Shot by 3 seconds. Okay. So you can use Charged Shot more often. How does that make the spec more complex. It's still just a weakaura saying "Charged shot is now ready. Push it.". Essentially it's still just based on using an arbitrary ability off CD and that is not a good or fun mechanic.

...it makes the spec more complex by being a second debuff management step after Serpent Sting. In turn, it provides more Lock and Load changes which much be spent appropriately. Now you have this chain of Serpent Sting => Charged Shot => Lock And Load which involves focus management, a CDR, debuff management, and buff management all in one. That's already more complex than most of the specs in the game on its own.

People find multidotting/debuff management to be very challenging and fun. That is why people play specs like Shadow Priest and Balance Druid. If you think our SV suggestions need an extra mechanic on top of the ones we listed, by all means go ahead and suggest something. Because so far all you are doing is approaching every single mechanic suggested and dismissing it as "shallow" or whatever on account of... being able to weakaura it?

Can you name a single mechanic of any spec in the game that transcends those standards?

3) Dots. Serpent sting would be applied and refreshed by multishot. You add serpent sting and let it rip. Not fun.
Black Arrow is 30 sec with a CDR. So how often would you approximately use it? It's still just a "press this button when ready" ability. Switching targets every 10-15 sec and applying a dot by just pressing one button is not engaging.

More reductionist trash. You're just downplaying every single mechanic you come across as "press this button". I have to repeat myself here just as you are, but this bad logic can be applied to EVERY SINGLE DPS MECHANIC IN THE GAME. What mechanic ISN'T just "press this when you have to"? Let's take a look at Frost Mage. I'm assuming you're taking Glacial Spike. Note that it's even more simple if you don't take it.

Glacial Spike: Cast it when you get Brain Freeze, then immediately follow it with a Flurry. Easy. Doesn't even have to be weakaura'd. Flurry will light up and there's a big graphic in the middle of the screen.
Flurry: Use as soon as you get Brain Freeze if you have fewer than 4 Icicles, otherwise save for Glacial Spike. Use a weakaura to track the Icicles and you're good.
Ice Lance: Cast it after Flurry or if you have Fingers of Frost. Don't need a weakaura for this one either.
Frozen Orb and Comet Storm: Both cast on CD. You can save for a cleave situation, but usually you won't need to.
Otherwise, spam Frostbolt until something interesting happens.

AOE: Keep Blizzard up and cast Frozen Orb whenever it comes off CD due to the CDR, otherwise proceed as ni

Optional: you can take Ebonbolt which basically has the same usage as Glacial Spike except the Brain Freeze is guaranteed.

Wow, what a paragon of complexity and nuance! /s

Now, I don't actually think Frost Mage is a brainless spec. There IS nuance and people who know the spec find it rewarding and can squeeze a lot of effectiveness out of it. The point of this exercise is to show that you can get all dismissive and reductionist you want but that doesn't mean these specs are actually brainless.

All the abilities you and others propose are all based on the same lack-luster mechanics of cool down reductions and procs. There are no management. There are no mechanics where you actively have to put in effort to buff your dots. Buffing dots by pressing an ability that is just a standard part of your rotation doesn't add anything new to the spec. It's still the exact same playstyle. It's all just "press this button when it light up". That is the most boring class design you can imagine. The survival spec you describe is so shallow. There is no depth to it at all.

Blah, blah, same old rubbish. Somehow reducing every single mechanic that can possibly be thought of as "pressing a button" makes them all easy and shallow, and somehow this only applies to Hunters.

[Kaver]

"BM has no mechanichs

<Names multiple mechanics and nuances>

"Those don't count!"

I can do the same bullshit regarding just about every spec in the game.

You say PI change your playstyle in an interesting way?:



Yes, actually. That spell giving a charge of Barbed Shot changes its priority, especially during the opener. The mastery mechanic is a big deal too. It turns AotW into a powerful AoE cooldown. Combined with Rapid Reload and you have 2 CDS on 2 different CDRs. Timing those correctly to maximise their effectiveness in M+ is actually very challenging and rewarding. That's why people have asked for those mechanics to be baseline. People do want challenge in BM. It has become more challenging since early Legion specifically because people asked for it to be so.

Also, you might think in your misinformed bubble that BM is bland and boring but the pets are actually a big selling point and pulling off a good CD cycle and coordinating with your pet to tear apart a trash mob is something that is very thematically and mechanically satisfying for a lot of people. What's really bland is Arms Warrior 2.0 A.K.A. Survival Hunter.

Maybe you would understand more if you had any investment/experience with BM at all, but you clearly don't and are speaking from a position of ignorance as per usual.



You can make a weakaura for literally every single DPS mechanic in the game. Stupid argument.



...it makes the spec more complex by being a second debuff management step after Serpent Sting. In turn, it provides more Lock and Load changes which much be spent appropriately. Now you have this chain of Serpent Sting => Charged Shot => Lock And Load which involves focus management, a CDR, debuff management, and buff management all in one. That's already more complex than most of the specs in the game on its own.

People find multidotting/debuff management to be very challenging and fun. That is why people play specs like Shadow Priest and Balance Druid. If you think our SV suggestions need an extra mechanic on top of the ones we listed, by all means go ahead and suggest something. Because so far all you are doing is approaching every single mechanic suggested and dismissing it as "shallow" or whatever on account of... being able to weakaura it?

Can you name a single mechanic of any spec in the game that transcends those standards?



More reductionist trash. You're just downplaying every single mechanic you come across as "press this button". I have to repeat myself here just as you are, but this bad logic can be applied to EVERY SINGLE DPS MECHANIC IN THE GAME. What mechanic ISN'T just "press this when you have to"? Let's take a look at Frost Mage. I'm assuming you're taking Glacial Spike. Note that it's even more simple if you don't take it.

Glacial Spike: Cast it when you get Brain Freeze, then immediately follow it with a Flurry. Easy. Doesn't even have to be weakaura'd. Flurry will light up and there's a big graphic in the middle of the screen.
Flurry: Use as soon as you get Brain Freeze if you have fewer than 4 Icicles, otherwise save for Glacial Spike. Use a weakaura to track the Icicles and you're good.
Ice Lance: Cast it after Flurry or if you have Fingers of Frost. Don't need a weakaura for this one either.
Frozen Orb and Comet Storm: Both cast on CD. You can save for a cleave situation, but usually you won't need to.
Otherwise, spam Frostbolt until something interesting happens.

AOE: Keep Blizzard up and cast Frozen Orb whenever it comes off CD due to the CDR, otherwise proceed as ni

Optional: you can take Ebonbolt which basically has the same usage as Glacial Spike except the Brain Freeze is guaranteed.

Wow, what a paragon of complexity and nuance! /s

Now, I don't actually think Frost Mage is a brainless spec. There IS nuance and people who know the spec find it rewarding and can squeeze a lot of effectiveness out of it. The point of this exercise is to show that you can get all dismissive and reductionist you want but that doesn't mean these specs are actually brainless.



Blah, blah, same old rubbish. Somehow reducing every single mechanic that can possibly be thought of as "pressing a button" makes them all easy and shallow, and somehow this only applies to Hunters.

You're making bread sound like a 3-star meal.

All those things you mention just don't apply to BM in reality. I'm sorry to say it, but you sound a bit deluded. You're rambling on about things that no make sence and there is no context in your posts. Take a breather before you start the next one.

Having an extra charge of Barbed shot during the opener is not something that change your playstyle in any impactful way. It's boring. There is no real variation. It's just a bland uninspired spec. Whoever think BM is engaging must really lack some imagination.

2 CDs with cool down reduction really don't add any complexity. I'm sorry to say it, but you're probably a rather bad player if you think that equals to any form of complex management.

Every spec in the game has some easy elements to them but they are compensated by some form of restrictions. BM ONLY has easy elements. There are no difficult parts of playing BM. And it's just so boring. Clearly it is made as a spec new players can easily pick up, but it should really also give top players something to work with. Sadly it don't. It's a bland spec.

People find multi-dot'ing fun if it is based on engaging mechanics. Applying and refreshing serpent sting with multi-shot is not engaging. You make your idea about Opportunism sound interesting, but in reality it's not. It doesn't have any large impact on your playstyle. It doesn't really require management. You will just get more procs. It's the worst class design you can imagine.

I think you should let professionals handle class design because your ideas are way too shallow. I'm sorry to say it, but it's the truth. They lack vision and will just result in another bland ranged spec with boring game mechanics.

[F Rm]

BM has no elements that can challenge the better players. It is clearly made for new players. It doesn't give anything to top players. No management. No mechanics. No real rotation. Nothing. Playing a BM hunter as a mythic raider is so boring.

And the way you describe describe the Survival spec in the thread is very similar. It also has no elements of challenge. It would not offer anything to the top players.

How is that interesting? Is gaining a charge of barbed shot a fun and engaging mechanic that change your playstyle? Everything about BM is just so bland and boring.

You need 2 weakauras that light up and it's just boring uninspired gameplay. Barbed shot could be an engaging mechanic but it is not. You just make a weakaura that tells you when to push the button. Not complex or fun.

It's still just a "press this button when ready" ability. Switching targets every 10-15 sec and applying a dot by just pressing one button is not engaging.

All those things you mention just don't apply to BM in reality. I'm sorry to say it, but you sound a bit deluded. You're rambling on about things that no make sence and there is no context in your posts. Take a breather before you start the next one.

Having an extra charge of Barbed shot during the opener is not something that change your playstyle in any impactful way. It's boring. There is no real variation. It's just a bland uninspired spec.

2 CDs with cool down reduction really don't add any complexity. I'm sorry to say it, but you're probably a rather bad player if you think that equals to any form of complex management.

It doesn't have any large impact on your playstyle. It doesn't really require management. You will just get more procs. It's the worst class design you can imagine.

BM hunter is a ridiculous easy spec to play. It's not engaging at all and Blizzard should add some actual mechanics to it.

- Simple rotation which essentially is a priority list where you mostly just press the abilities off CD.
- Simple AOE rotation.
- No cast time abilities
- Unlimited movement
- No ressource management

The thing here is, these arguments you bring up in terms of what you consider to be boring class design. Forget ranged Survival. Forget BM. You're essentially describing pretty much every single damage focused spec in the game. The ones it seems that you actually like would be caster specs(Ele shaman, Balance Druid, Mage, Priest, Warlock). And barely that even.

-Simple rotation with essential priority lists? Pretty much every melee spec we have in the game. As well as most if not all ranged specs, including casters.

-Simple AOE rotation(using only 1 button once for their AoE ability/abilities)? Again, describes aspects every spec in the game.

- No cast time abilities? Includes every melee spec in the game. Includes all Hunter specs except for 1 ability in MM(Aimed Shot). Includes multiple abilities for all caster specs as well(not all ofc, but many).

- Unlimited movement? Again, includes every melee spec in the game. And includes BM for hunters.

- No resource management? What is resource management to you? By definition, the hunter class have a resource called Focus. And if you don't manage how you spend/regain it. You will not perform well in any aspect of the game that involves fighting.


So far my deduction for all arguments you bring up is, you hate the hunter CLASS(again, forget any individual specs), you seem to hate the entire class. As well as...most damage based classes in the game. If this is how you feel, I would recommend that you try out healing. Healing by definition is much more challenging/harder in any aspect of the game compared to dealing damage. Why? Because contrary to DPS, you now also have a very strong element of uncertainty that involves your gameplay.

It's still just a weakaura saying "Charged shot is now ready. Push it.". Essentially it's still just based on using an arbitrary ability off CD and that is not a good or fun mechanic.

Any CD based spell/ability in the entire game can be monitored this way. This is not something exclusive to the Hunter class. Yet alone, a single spec.

2 CDs with cool down reduction really don't add any complexity. I'm sorry to say it, but you're probably a rather bad player if you think that equals to any form of complex management.

I noticed you bring up the argument of the specs not being challenging for those doing mythic raiding.

The thing is, if you are a mythic raider and consider any spec at all in this game to be particularly challenging. I think it's time to do some practicing with that spec.
The most noteworthy aspect of Mythic level difficulty is that it's much more about dealing with the mechanics specific to the actual encounters rather than struggling with elements of a single spec.

BM ONLY has easy elements. There are no difficult parts of playing BM.

Again, this thread is not about BM.
It's about bringing back the core fantasy of what the old ranged Survival spec we had between Cata - WoD, what that spec was about.

And if you think that any of the suggestions included with design choices made by me or others in this thread are too easy. I would suggest that you go back and look at how ranged Survival worked during that period. It was a LOT simpler than it would be with the above design.

And on that note...

When you state that simply using Multi-Shot to maintain Serpent Sting on multiple targets. This is only something you would want to do here if you were to come up against a large pack of enemies. Meaning a pack that is so big that managing Serpent Sting individually on ALL enemies at once, wouldn't be possible.

If you look at certain talents and what they do/how they affect Serpent Sting as an ability, you would NOT gain many of those bonuses if you were to only use multi-shot in order to apply serpent sting.


Also, you say that this spec has no elements of DoT buildup that goes beyond simply pressing 1 button once and you're done.

Here are some that are included in the proposed spec design for ranged Survival:

T.N.T - If Explosive Shot is used on an enemy already affected by a previous Explosive Shot, the DoT’s remaining duration is refreshed as well as increased by an additional 3 seconds.
In addition, when a Exotic Ammunitions proc occurs, it will increase the duration of Explosive Shot on the target by 5 seconds as well as one of the above mentioned periodic damage effects, if the DoTs are active when the proc occurs.

(Pick this talent and, especially with your opener you will be required to perform some fairly hectic DoT management/ability management in order to build your Explosive Shot debuff up on 1 or especially on several targets. Pick this talent and Explosive Shot is no longer a simple, "use-when-ready" and/or a "use-often-enough-so-it-does-not-cap-charges" ability. Pick this talent and, as the text states, this adds much more complexity to an otherwise fairly simple ability.)


Rapid Fire:
While active, increases your haste by 20%, and on use, grants a charge of Explosive Shot.
In addition, while Rapid Fire is active, the first hit of Explosive Shot when cast will reset the remaining cooldown of Black Arrow, and the periodic damage effect applied by Black Arrow can now stack up to 3 times.

(Again, pressing Black Arrow once, will not be enough to get the full benefit from what the ability is capable of. You need to build it up).


Immolation Trap - A trap that is exclusive to this spec. When triggered, causes periodic damage to the target over 20 seconds. 1 minute CD as a base with talents affecting how often you can use it along with what it does.

(As opposed to most DoTs in the game. This one actually requires some precision in order to apply to the intended target. Most DoTs are target-based. And not location-based).


Tar applied by Tar Trap can now be set on fire by Immolation Trap, causing any enemy who stands in it to take increasing damage over time for it’s duration/as long as the enemy stands in it.

(This type of DoT/AoE ability requires multiple steps in order to be applied to an enemy. Again, including location-based targeting as opposed to...lets say Wildfire Bomb that Melee Survival currently has(along with abilities for many other specs)).


And as a different combo, we have:

Dire Frenzy - Replaces Quick Shot. You command your pet to charge the enemy target followed by performing a series of 5 attacks in quick succession. This will cause your pet to enrage and if Dire Frenzy is cast again before the Enrage fades, the damage caused by Dire Frenzy is increased. Stacking up to two times. 3 charges. 8 second recharge time. Costs 35 Focus. Requires an active pet.

+

Ferocious Inspiration - Dire Frenzy now does damage to all nearby enemies.

(Dire Frenzy when used as a AoE-ability, sure, it's one button press per attack. But it's pet based, and if you think not managing where your pet is standing and what target it's attacking is required, then you will not do particularly well when using this for AoE damage).


Now, if you think that none of these examples are fun or challenging. Then I'm not sure what you want from this game because, as far as DoT-management goes no matter what class you play.
This describes how it works for every single one of them. Every spec in the game that utilizes DoTs/or elements of bulding-up damage, works somewhat similar to one or several of the above examples. Heck, most cases ARE just press-this-button-once specs for a DoT/ability to be applied on a target, with full efficiency.

Besides, you have to account for all aspects of the game when creating/designing new specs. You can't just say that Mythic raiders should have to perform brain surgery while executing their abilities.

A spec when designed has to account for new(er) players as well.

Steady Shot should reapply an active Serpent Sting. I think that was fundamental to the old Survival Rotation. It was about balancing the many CDs against their focus needs as well as the need to refresh Serpent. It made the rotation about picking where to insert the necessary Cobras, which was both smooth and rewarding when done well.

It was added into Arcane Shot(not Steady/Cobra Shot) I think, we got this in WoD if my memory serves me right.

It might have been rewarding. But it's only purpose was to remove the actual Serpent Sting ability. The only outcome was that ranged Survival became easier to play.

Some players probably liked this change. I did NOT. I liked having Serpent Sting to be it's own ability. Not baked into Arcane Shot.

[Ghost10491]

Y'all are arguing with a brick wall. You can't fix stupid, don't even bother trying.

[Eapoe]

As I’ve stated before, Kaver is a troll and only comes into Hunter threads to derail them about how easy they are to play and deserve to be dead last because of that. It doesn’t matter how much logic you use, or how many times you prove Kaver wrong, he/she will ignore the point and twist it to suit the narrative he/she wants to establish.
It’s not worth the response.

[Ghost10491]

So I've been thinking.

What if you apply the WoD beta Lock n' Load idea, and instead of applying it to ranged SV, you apply it to MM and Aimed Shot. The spec would probably look something like this.

A high dmg instant cast ability on a set CD with high focus cost, like old Chimaera Shot. Could be a new version of Marked Shot, without the stupid Vulnerable idea. "Instant. 60 focus. 15 second CD. Deals x% dmg as physical dmg, and applies Hunter's Mark to the target. Only one target can be effected by Hunter's Mark."
-this would be the hardest hitting ability we have, and should always be cast on CD. Part of the spec's difficulty would be making sure you always have enough focus to cast it as soon as it is off CD

Arcane Shot. Deals medium dmg for a lower focus cost. Has a x% chance of granting a charge of Aimed Shot. Precise Shots is gone.This would be our mobile focus dump that should be cast as regularly as possible to grant charges of Aimed Shot.

Aimed Shot. Up to 5 charges. 40 focus. 2.5 sec cast time. The main goal of the spec would be to cast as many Aimed as possible during the fight, without impeding on Marked Shot. You would never want to cap charges. This ability would also always be castable at 100 focus(for precasting and open world ease of play)

Steady shot would be the only focus generator. Rapid Fire would be a talent that replaces steady shot.

I'm not going to go too crazy with details because this thread is supposed to be about SV not MM, I just thought it seemed liek a cool idea, and honestly i think it fits MM better. Stacking 10 explosive shots then just blowing them all would probably piss off a lot of people in PvP.

This also gives MM the more ability of short CD burst from the comfort of his sniper nest before he has to move, and allows SV to be the spec more designed around steady dps. I would give SV the ability Kill Shot back as well, as I think it fits the idea. Slow and steadily wounding your prey before moving in for the kill when it's time.

[F Rm]

As I’ve stated before, Kaver is a troll and only comes into Hunter threads to derail them about how easy they are to play and deserve to be dead last because of that. It doesn’t matter how much logic you use, or how many times you prove Kaver wrong, he/she will ignore the point and twist it to suit the narrative he/she wants to establish.
It’s not worth the response.

May very well be the case.

I just know that I keep waiting to hear an answer on my question as to what he/she would actually like to see for the hunter class.
He/she has pretty much dismissed all aspects and spec based mechanics the class has to offer. Part from that of abilities requiring Casting in order to be used. Abilities that requires you to stand still to use.

I guess he/she will be very disappointed to learn that hardcasting and a large amount of forced movement restrictions, those examples are not what this class is supposed to be about. As have been stated by devs themselves. As well as by others in this very thread(and in threads on other forums/platforms).


Anyways...here are my motivational points/arguments as to why there should once again be a playable version of what used to be Ranged Survival(honestly, the name does not really matter, we can just as well give it a new name. "Tracker" could be one suggestion).


- With the Legion expansion and the redesign of the Survival spec. In an interview conducted in connection to this, one answer that was given from the devs was that Survival in it's ranged state felt to similar to that of Marksmanship and it lacked a unique feeling/identity of it's own. This served as one of the main driving points when the decision was made to completely change the nature of the spec.
Many hunters(players) did not agree with this statement, myself included. But we'll leave this part for now. The real thing that makes me think that, YES, this spec deserved an update as well for Legion instead of just being removed, that thing, is this:

At the same time as the spec was redesigned to a melee version. This was done for the Legion expansion, an expansion where most specs in the game saw extensive changes being made to them. Many changes amounted to actual overhauls. A strong foundation point in the new design philosophy of specs was "Spec Identity and Spec Fantasy".

If you apply this new(er) philosophy/concept to what was Survival at the time, you could easily have built on what it was already meant to be. A spec that focused on the fantasy of enhancing your ammunition/arrows rather than focusing on perfect aim or stronger instant attacks. Considering how the other hunter specs actually turned out, where Beast Mastery became even more focused on the use of Pets and to strengthen them. Marksmanship now focuses even more on that of the strong-hitting singular attacks, dealing a lot of damage in very short windows of time. The survival spec that we got, is now a spec intended for melee-combat where you get into the thick of it alongside your pet.


- None of the above specs actually focuses on DoT management. Nor does either of the above specs have potential to perform very well when it comes to enemies being spread out.

So, adding a spec that fills this void(which is what the suggested spec would be all about), would that not be justified?


- The actual fantasy in itself.

The use of animal venoms/toxins as well as mixing poisons or making explosive devices that you attach to your arrows/bullets(ammunition) actually provides a plausible way to engage in a fighting style that is more calculated, and that is more consistent in it's execution.
It allows for a fighting style that involves the use of periodic damage.
In short, it fits.

This also happens to suit the "Tracker, name suggestion" for the new spec as well. Why?
By nature, what would you say that a "tracker" actually is? What does he/she do? Well…

"The practice of tracking may focus on, but is not limited to, the patterns and systems of the local animal life and ecology."
"Some of the most important applications of tracking are in hunting and trapping."

When hunting, weakening the prey or taking it down with the use of venoms/toxins, this fits very well here if you ask me.
Tracking down specific animals and/or plants to extract venom or to make poisons that you then can use to hunt with? Again, this is something I'm all for.


- A fairly unique fantasy/identity amongst every other spec in the game.

Despite the fact that you can find specs currently in the game that utilizes poisons/explosives to some degree(those being that of current Survival with it's Wildfire Bomb and Serpent Sting, and you also have Rogues as a class. Certain elements of the specs that belong to the Rogue class, focus on the use of poisons as well as explosives.
But still, not in the same way as and/or at the level of what the suggested spec provided in this thread would. This spec would be unique enough.

Marksmanship as well as Melee Survival both currently can involve the use of Serpent Sting. But this is not really an argument as to why the above suggested spec should not do so as well.
Considering we currently have 3 specs out of 3 where you are able to pick the talent A Murder of Crows.
So why shouldn't several specs be able to use something like Serpent Sting? Beast Mastery benefits more from A Murder of Crows than the other specs do.
So why couldn't one spec benefit more than the others from Serpent Sting, or from the use of Traps?

So I've been thinking.

What if you apply the WoD beta Lock n' Load idea, and instead of applying it to ranged SV, you apply it to MM and Aimed Shot. The spec would probably look something like this.

A high dmg instant cast ability on a set CD with high focus cost, like old Chimaera Shot. Could be a new version of Marked Shot, without the stupid Vulnerable idea. "Instant. 60 focus. 15 second CD. Deals x% dmg as physical dmg, and applies Hunter's Mark to the target. Only one target can be effected by Hunter's Mark."
-this would be the hardest hitting ability we have, and should always be cast on CD. Part of the spec's difficulty would be making sure you always have enough focus to cast it as soon as it is off CD

Arcane Shot. Deals medium dmg for a lower focus cost. Has a x% chance of granting a charge of Aimed Shot. Precise Shots is gone.This would be our mobile focus dump that should be cast as regularly as possible to grant charges of Aimed Shot.

Aimed Shot. Up to 5 charges. 40 focus. 2.5 sec cast time. The main goal of the spec would be to cast as many Aimed as possible during the fight, without impeding on Marked Shot. You would never want to cap charges. This ability would also always be castable at 100 focus(for precasting and open world ease of play)

Steady shot would be the only focus generator. Rapid Fire would be a talent that replaces steady shot.

I'm not going to go too crazy with details because this thread is supposed to be about SV not MM, I just thought it seemed liek a cool idea, and honestly i think it fits MM better. Stacking 10 explosive shots then just blowing them all would probably piss off a lot of people in PvP.

This also gives MM the more ability of short CD burst from the comfort of his sniper nest before he has to move, and allows SV to be the spec more designed around steady dps. I would give SV the ability Kill Shot back as well, as I think it fits the idea. Slow and steadily wounding your prey before moving in for the kill when it's time.

I haven't played MM enough to make an informed decision on what would make it feel better.

I will say this though that I'm not a huge fan of how focused the spec is on the use of Aimed Shot. But I know several hunters that are so this is just a personal opinion.
Mostly, my opinion is based on the nature of how Aimed Shot works. I don't like casting. We have multiple classes/specs in the game that evolve around casting.

Also, I like having the option to interact with pets(more than what MM is currently capable of).


Now, back to your suggestions/ideas!

A high dmg instant cast ability on a set CD with high focus cost, like old Chimaera Shot. Could be a new version of Marked Shot, without the stupid Vulnerable idea. "Instant. 60 focus. 15 second CD. Deals x% dmg as physical dmg, and applies Hunter's Mark to the target. Only one target can be effected by Hunter's Mark.

Regarding your Chimaera inspired shot. Is the intention that the Hunter's Mark applied by the ability, that it's intended to be the same as the Hunter's Mark -talent currently available to MM?

Arcane Shot. Deals medium dmg for a lower focus cost. Has a x% chance of granting a charge of Aimed Shot. Precise Shots is gone.This would be our mobile focus dump that should be cast as regularly as possible to grant charges of Aimed Shot.

Is your intention to keep the current Lock & Load -talent that can be found in the MM tree?
Is the above change intended as an addition to what the mentioned talent already does or would this be a replacement for it?

Aimed Shot. Up to 5 charges. 40 focus. 2.5 sec cast time.

The main problem I find with combining something like the first ability you mentioned with a focus cost of 60. Along with Aimed Shot at a focus cost of 40. Even with a capped focus bar, you could only fire away 2 Aimed Shots(perhaps 3 depending on if you have extra sources of focus regeneration) before the focus bar is empty. Adding a shot that costs 60 focus to this. I would say that the spec will then need to have the focus regenerating capabilities similar to what BM currently has in order for the high amount of focus that needs to be spent per <period of time>.
Especially considering the charge generator for Aimed Shot is a focus spender in itself.

Again, I would need more info/details before I can say for certain.

I would give SV the ability Kill Shot back as well, as I think it fits the idea. Slow and steadily wounding your prey before moving in for the kill when it's time.

I get the reasoning.
The problem I find here is that for the most part, Kill Shot is not actually going to be a killing shot. Especially in PvE. For me, this takes away much of the fantasy behind the ability.
This is just how I feel ofc. I'm sure many would love for this ability to make a return to the game.

It's an execute-ability. And what type anyone prefers is all individual. My spec suggestion in this thread holds elements of execution(as seen in one of the Mastery Bonuses as well as the talent "Mixologist".
It's a matter of opinion, as these things often are. But I doubt you could combine all the above as this would make your ability to increase your damage on low health targets a bit to powerful.

[Ghost10491]

May very well be the case.

I just know that I keep waiting to hear an answer on my question as to what he/she would actually like to see for the hunter class.
He/she has pretty much dismissed all aspects and spec based mechanics the class has to offer. Part from that of abilities requiring Casting in order to be used. Abilities that requires you to stand still to use.

I guess he/she will be very disappointed to learn that hardcasting and a large amount of forced movement restrictions, those examples are not what this class is supposed to be about. As have been stated by devs themselves. As well as by others in this very thread(and in threads on other forums/platforms).


Anyways...here are my motivational points/arguments as to why there should once again be a playable version of what used to be Ranged Survival(honestly, the name does not really matter, we can just as well give it a new name. "Tracker" could be one suggestion).


- With the Legion expansion and the redesign of the Survival spec. In an interview conducted in connection to this, one answer that was given from the devs was that Survival in it's ranged state felt to similar to that of Marksmanship and it lacked a unique feeling/identity of it's own. This served as one of the main driving points when the decision was made to completely change the nature of the spec.
Many hunters(players) did not agree with this statement, myself included. But we'll leave this part for now. The real thing that makes me think that, YES, this spec deserved an update as well for Legion instead of just being removed, that thing, is this:

At the same time as the spec was redesigned to a melee version. This was done for the Legion expansion, an expansion where most specs in the game saw extensive changes being made to them. Many changes amounted to actual overhauls. A strong foundation point in the new design philosophy of specs was "Spec Identity and Spec Fantasy".

If you apply this new(er) philosophy/concept to what was Survival at the time, you could easily have built on what it was already meant to be. A spec that focused on the fantasy of enhancing your ammunition/arrows rather than focusing on perfect aim or stronger instant attacks. Considering how the other hunter specs actually turned out, where Beast Mastery became even more focused on the use of Pets and to strengthen them. Marksmanship now focuses even more on that of the strong-hitting singular attacks, dealing a lot of damage in very short windows of time. The survival spec that we got, is now a spec intended for melee-combat where you get into the thick of it alongside your pet.


- None of the above specs actually focuses on DoT management. Nor does either of the above specs have potential to perform very well when it comes to enemies being spread out.

So, adding a spec that fills this void(which is what the suggested spec would be all about), would that not be justified?


- The actual fantasy in itself.

The use of animal venoms/toxins as well as mixing poisons or making explosive devices that you attach to your arrows/bullets(ammunition) actually provides a plausible way to engage in a fighting style that is more calculated, and that is more consistent in it's execution.
It allows for a fighting style that involves the use of periodic damage.
In short, it fits.

This also happens to suit the "Tracker, name suggestion" for the new spec as well. Why?
By nature, what would you say that a "tracker" actually is? What does he/she do? Well…

"The practice of tracking may focus on, but is not limited to, the patterns and systems of the local animal life and ecology."
"Some of the most important applications of tracking are in hunting and trapping."

When hunting, weakening the prey or taking it down with the use of venoms/toxins, this fits very well here if you ask me.
Tracking down specific animals and/or plants to extract venom or to make poisons that you then can use to hunt with? Again, this is something I'm all for.


- A fairly unique fantasy/identity amongst every other spec in the game.

Despite the fact that you can find specs currently in the game that utilizes poisons/explosives to some degree(those being that of current Survival with it's Wildfire Bomb and Serpent Sting, and you also have Rogues as a class. Certain elements of the specs that belong to the Rogue class, focus on the use of poisons as well as explosives.
But still, not in the same way as and/or at the level of what the suggested spec provided in this thread would. This spec would be unique enough.

Marksmanship as well as Melee Survival both currently can involve the use of Serpent Sting. But this is not really an argument as to why the above suggested spec should not do so as well.
Considering we currently have 3 specs out of 3 where you are able to pick the talent A Murder of Crows.
So why shouldn't several specs be able to use something like Serpent Sting? Beast Mastery benefits more from A Murder of Crows than the other specs do.
So why couldn't one spec benefit more than the others from Serpent Sting, or from the use of Traps?





I haven't played MM enough to make an informed decision on what would make it feel better.

I will say this though that I'm not a huge fan of how focused the spec is on the use of Aimed Shot. But I know several hunters that are so this is just a personal opinion.
Mostly, my opinion is based on the nature of how Aimed Shot works. I don't like casting. We have multiple classes/specs in the game that evolve around casting.

Also, I like having the option to interact with pets(more than what MM is currently capable of).


Now, back to your suggestions/ideas!




Regarding your Chimaera inspired shot. Is the intention that the Hunter's Mark applied by the ability, that it's intended to be the same as the Hunter's Mark -talent currently available to MM?




Is your intention to keep the current Lock & Load -talent that can be found in the MM tree?
Is the above change intended as an addition to what the mentioned talent already does or would this be a replacement for it?




The main problem I find with combining something like the first ability you mentioned with a focus cost of 60. Along with Aimed Shot at a focus cost of 40. Even with a capped focus bar, you could only fire away 2 Aimed Shots(perhaps 3 depending on if you have extra sources of focus regeneration) before the focus bar is empty. Adding a shot that costs 60 focus to this. I would say that the spec will then need to have the focus regenerating capabilities similar to what BM currently has in order for the high amount of focus that needs to be spent per <period of time>.
Especially considering the charge generator for Aimed Shot is a focus spender in itself.

Again, I would need more info/details before I can say for certain.



I get the reasoning.
The problem I find here is that for the most part, Kill Shot is not actually going to be a killing shot. Especially in PvE. For me, this takes away much of the fantasy behind the ability.
This is just how I feel ofc. I'm sure many would love for this ability to make a return to the game.

It's an execute-ability. And what type anyone prefers is all individual. My spec suggestion in this thread holds elements of execution(as seen in one of the Mastery Bonuses as well as the talent "Mixologist".
It's a matter of opinion, as these things often are. But I doubt you could combine all the above as this would make your ability to increase your damage on low health targets a bit to powerful.

To be honest, my proposed spec is not even what i would consider the best option for MM. I like the idea of a WoD beta lock n' load, and was simply trying to design a spec with it built in.

To answer some of your questions though, yes Marked Shot is intended to have current iteration of Hunter's Mark built in. I thought about having it be an ability that is able to stack, but unless you're in a long fight situation(raid boss), and even then, a ramp up mechanic built into an ability with a 15 second CD just wouldn't be favorable. It was simply a way to add a little flair to the ability, like old Chimaera Shot used to have. I am of course open to suggestions on better ones, but either way, Hunter's Mark by itself costing a global CD is ridiculous. The main point of this ability would be its dps and high focus cost. This should be the highest priority ability, taking away some of the reliance on Aimed Shot.

Mastering the spec would however revolve around your use of Aimed Shot. It is the only hunter ability that is immobile, and has always been a staple of MM. I have seen suggestions of making Aimed Shot instant, or castable while moving, but to be honest i do not like those suggestions. And yes, it has a pretty high focus cost as well. Part of the spec back in it's prime was managing your focus, Chimaera Shot being the highest priority, but still casting Aimed when possible, though most Aimed cast were done either in the first 10% of the boss when blowing your CD's during Careful Aim, or with the Master Marksman procs(MM's old version of its own Lock n' Load). Upping the CD of the highest priority move to 15 sec instead of 10 allows 5 extra seconds of focus management, allowing for more hardcasting of Aimed Shot. The better you play your spec, the more Aimed Shot are cast, the higher your dps. Focus management is a simple yet effective way to seperate the different level of players and keep the spec engaging. New players would simply focus more Marked Shot, and occasionally cast Aimed Shot. Experienced players would focus on getting more Aimed Shots off, without it interfering with your biggest dps move.

In this current build idea, Aimed Shot only temporarily has high priority(when it is about to cap), besides that, Arcane Shot is pretty much equal to it because Arcane Shot=Aimed Shot. Besides this, Arcane Shot allows easier focus management because it is instant and low costing. The idea would be cast Aimed Shot as many times as possible(you should never end a fight with charges or cap charges) without interfering with Marked Shot. The current iteration of Lock n' Load should be removed from MM and given back to ranged SV. I don't think a random, low % chance proc fits MM very well. Master Marksman, but in Cata, felt more a part of the rotation than a random proc. A passive could be built in that every time arcane shot grants a charge, it also gives you a stack of Master Marksman. Upon reaching 5 stacks, your next Aimed Shot would be instant and cost no focus.

As far as Kill Shot, I think it really needs to be returned. Despite how simple it is (apparently thats a problem to people), it was fun. I would like to see it return to all specs, but from a spec fantasy wise, I see it fitting SV the best. Gameplay wise, i think MM needs it more. Playing in the open world and getting a mob to about 18% feels stupid. Either spam arcane shot til it dies, which does shit dmg because of their Precise Shots passive, or hard cast Aimed which is overkill and takes too long to kill a mob that is basically already dead, or cast rapid fire and waste a 20 second CD when you won't even finish the cast. The exact same case is true is dungeons a lot. A pack gets down to low health, we won't get Aimed off, rapid fire will be wasted, or we just spam multishot til it all dies just to look like we're still doing something while the other dps kill everything off.

Either way, back then I would always switch off between SV and MM every tier for change of pace, and I liked how each one played. I preferred the gameplay of SV more, but sometimes it's really nice to watch those big juicy crits in MM. Now one is removed, and the other is far from as satisfying as it used to be.

- - - Updated - - -

However, back to your spec idea(the real point of this thread), I like the base of it. It would play a lot like old SV, but with explosive shot having 2 charges, grants you a little more freedom than simply cast this on CD. I like the mechanic of Dire Frenzy you have, it would add some complexity to what appears to be the ability you would probably cast the most. However, I simply don't like relying on my pet for dmg. It's why I've never gone BM. I like TNT somewhat. Again, it is a talent that requires you to change your timing of one of you most cast abilities. However, I would not like it to become the Frenzy effect that BM currently has, where we'd just be casting explosive shot right before the timer runs out. I like the interaction idea of casting explosive shot on a target already effected by explosive shot though, to me just needs some work. I like viper venom, as it gives us another potential high dot effect. The second effect of death adder to me should be the baseline focus generator, though im afraid this would create a lot of downtime in the rotation, as it would remove the need to cast steady shot/cobra shot to generate focus. So your way probably is better.
I'm confused by wildfire. It sounds cool, but wouldn't this effect already happen from using tar trap? Ever burning is simple, yet effective at adding aoe. Nothing wrong with that. I like spitting cobra, as it removes casttime and gives some umph to generating focus. The bonus of the beast within is nice, but requires you to choose talents that people may not want to pick. I'm in the air with preheat because im still in the air about using traps for main rotation. Rapid recuperation is fine, most specs have a talent that does the same. Catalysis is my favorite talent as it provides the potential large burst window im looking for. resourcefulness, see above about traps. I view traps mainly as survival tools. I can see immolation trap being added back in as a dps ability, but not really a fan of it for ice trap. CD reduction for traps I would like to see elsewhere though, as trap enhancement was a feature i used to love of old SV in the open world.

[F Rm]

To be honest, my proposed spec is not even what i would consider the best option for MM. I like the idea of a WoD beta lock n' load, and was simply trying to design a spec with it built in.

Understandable, we all have our preferences

To answer some of your questions though, yes Marked Shot is intended to have current iteration of Hunter's Mark built in. I thought about having it be an ability that is able to stack, but unless you're in a long fight situation(raid boss), and even then, a ramp up mechanic built into an ability with a 15 second CD just wouldn't be favorable.

Stacking mechanics added to spells that have a bit longer(lower mid-range) CD, there needs to be a fairly interesting ability as a base if this mechanic should be built in. And especially for abilities that are just passive damage boosts and don't really do much on their own. I can very much agree that this might've turned out to be less desirable.

And as far as Hunter's Mark as a talent goes and it's design for current MM. I will say this...by all means, give MM the Hunter's Mark ability, but give it as a baseline ability. Don't make it occupy a talent slot. As it is now, it's for the most part a set-and-forget mechanic.

Or...

...change it somewhat so that it would be more interesting to use.

Hunter's Mark by itself costing a global CD is ridiculous.

Yeah idd, it's not even a major CD that is used offensively. You just apply it and done, and depending on the fight, you apply it once and that's it.

The main point of this ability would be its dps and high focus cost. This should be the highest priority ability, taking away some of the reliance on Aimed Shot.

Can see that. And tbh, I would not mind for MM to have a focus on something beyond just AS, AS, AS...etc.(I know it has a bit more to it than this. But still).

I have seen suggestions of making Aimed Shot instant, or castable while moving, but to be honest i do not like those suggestions.

I agree…the fantasy of Aimed Shot is really that you take your time, pulling yourself together and focusing on that one shot that hit's the perfect spot. For you to have this ability and to be able to use it while jumping/running around like...BM...
Yeah, I agree that this would not fit well. I would not oppose azerite traits, or better yet, passive effects/talents you can pick that lets other abilities you have interact with Aimed Shot and it's cast time.

As in...the better you play, the more you can take away from the default cast time of Aimed Shot. Again, not all the way to make it instant, but down from 2.5 to lets say 1.5 secs(not counting Bloodlust or other increases to haste).

Part of the spec back in it's prime was managing your focus, Chimaera Shot being the highest priority, but still casting Aimed when possible.

I get this, my concern was more about the Focus regen(and currently, lack there of), required for you to be able to play with these suggested abilities and still have it feel like a smooth experience.

The current iteration of Lock n' Load should be removed from MM and given back to ranged SV. I don't think a random, low % chance proc fits MM very well.

Agreed

Having, as you say(and as the talent currently says), your auto attacks to come with a 5% chance to trigger a L&L. I mean, it's extreme RNG by nature. Sometimes you might get extremely lucky and it will be fun as hell. But when that is not the case, it just feels shitty.

I played for the most part of Legion as BM and ran with the One With the Pack talent that buffs your proc chance to trigger a Wild Call(L&L for BM). When they nerfed that talent from 30% down to 20%, that in itself felt like crap(the Wild Call passive along with that talent mechanic-wise was RNG within RNG, which wasn't fun either). But at least before the nerf, you more often felt that you gained the benefit from it.

I played the redesigned MM spec mostly during it's early stages in the BfA Alpha+Beta. I hated that version of L&L. It...never...procc'ed…

Having the charge regen for Aimed to be somewhat in your control might make it feel better. Who knows!

A passive could be built in that every time arcane shot grants a charge, it also gives you a stack of Master Marksman. Upon reaching 5 stacks, your next Aimed Shot would be instant and cost no focus.

One way to do it.

As far as Kill Shot, I think it really needs to be returned. Despite how simple it is (apparently thats a problem to people), it was fun. I would like to see it return to all specs, but from a spec fantasy wise, I see it fitting SV the best.

This will always be about what individual players prefer. Some would love this. Others would not.

To me, having a execute-style ability that is simply a press-when-ready mechanic...is not something that I would want to play with. In a case like this I would rather just stick with the abilities I have and have some additional effect added to them, either through passive or perhaps even a active/mechanical change to them.

Again...depends on what you prefer.

Playing in the open world and getting a mob to about 18% feels stupid.

I get your frustration. Perhaps your Chimaera'esk ability suggestion would make up for this.

Either way, back then I would always switch off between SV and MM every tier for change of pace, and I liked how each one played. I preferred the gameplay of SV more, but sometimes it's really nice to watch those big juicy crits in MM. Now one is removed, and the other is far from as satisfying as it used to be.

I keep referring to the interview where we got the answer that a big part of the motivation for deleting SV was that it felt to similar to the playstyle of MM. So all of us that preferred SV and it's DoT management over...MMs big hits..we were just wrong or?

I only switched to MM by HFC where it was miles ahead of SV in terms of output. Enough that it mattered.

As far as the big crits for MM. I never look at the numbers. It's just clutter on my screen when raiding so..removed it.


- - - Next topic - - -

I like the mechanic of Dire Frenzy you have, it would add some complexity to what appears to be the ability you would probably cast the most.

Depending on the fight, you might use it a few times yes. The actual design of the ability, it's focus cost, damage, Enrage-duration etc, this has to be more fleshed out ofc. I specifically left much of this out in the original post as, without getting to test the spec I couldn't say where these things should be exactly.

Most of my motivation for including this talent(and the other talents surrounding the ability), it's to allow for more pet interaction for anyone who wants to. I don't want this spec to be another Ranger, we already have that with MM.
But again, as many don't want to involve pet use more than the minimal amount. It's the main reason for why everything that enhances your pet is optional and not there by default. It's an active choice within your talents.

Also, if you want the "The Beast Within"-talent but don't want the active pet ability of Dire Frenzy, you could still get this with the talent "Alpha Predator".
If you only pick Alpha Predator, you ofc wouldn't get the same amount of triggers on The Beast Within, as when using both that one as well as Dire Frenzy. But when leaving out Dire Frenzy, it would only be a passive effect that you wouldn't have to worry about.

Why? your pet's attack pattern is by itself fairly reliable. Every time your pet hits an enemy, it would gain more attack speed and a higher chance to trigger a Dire Frenzy attack(and with it, triggering The Beast Within).

And on that note, you can also count in the Dire Frenzy attacks here. As each hit from a Dire Frenzy attack would give a 2% increase to it's attack speed(meaning a total of 10% per Dire Frenzy attack performed).

I simply don't like relying on my pet for dmg. It's why I've never gone BM.

Understandable. Though, the damage coming from Dire Frenzy would not be that insane. It would be decent. But your core abilities should still be your main focus.

I like TNT somewhat. Again, it is a talent that requires you to change your timing of one of you most cast abilities. However, I would not like it to become the Frenzy effect that BM currently has, where we'd just be casting explosive shot right before the timer runs out.

It is true that with this talent, it has that potential feel. But it would still feel different as it wouldn't be as static as Barbed Shot(Frenzy buff) is for BM.

With your first Explosive Shot, it would have a duration of...what was it at max level in WoD again? 4 seconds? I can't remember.
With your second application it would stack up to 4 seconds + an additional 3(or w/e the number should actually be after tuning it). Making it a total of 7 seconds.
And on the third application it would stack from 7 seconds up to 10 seconds. And so on...

Now, I haven't actually decided how high you should be able to stack the Explosive Shot DoT's duration to. One one hand, should you be able to keep it up 100% of the time if you play well? Should you be able to stack it to as high as, maybe, 12 seconds so you have a very short margin/window to refresh it with each new Explosive Shot. I don't know. Considering, if you lose the DoT on your target, you would have to build it up again from the bottom(4 seconds or something).
But like I said, it would be more varied than the Frenzy buff is for BM. And it would require more thought as well depending on the encounter and how many enemies you fight(and priority targets).

I like viper venom, as it gives us another potential high dot effect.

First, my thought went to the design of all abilities on that row and that they should involve some sort of focus regen/saving.
Second, the intent with Viper Venom in itself was to allow for AoE damage to buff ST damage(or in short, buff Serpent Sting when you intend to use it on a priority target).

The second effect of death adder to me should be the baseline focus generator, though im afraid this would create a lot of downtime in the rotation, as it would remove the need to cast steady shot/cobra shot to generate focus.

I did consider this to be one way to go with the design. Although in the end I decided that it would fit in well as one of the secondary effects provided in the "focus regen talent row".

I'm confused by wildfire. It sounds cool, but wouldn't this effect already happen from using tar trap?

The intent with Wildfire was to further build on the feel of using explosives/burning your enemies. It's very much intended to be an extension of Immolation Trap.
The baseline effect of Immolation Trap and how it interacts with Tar Trap is there to increase your stacked-AoE performance. I liked the twist of the damage from a burning Tar Trap increasing over time. For the fantasy of the "Don't Stand in the Fire" concept
You could just as well reverse the effect on the Tar Trap so that it does more damage initially and as time goes on, it will do less and less until when it finally fades away.

Back to Wildfire. The upside with picking this talent is when you're in an encounter that involves more consistent AoE'ing. Why? Because the intent here is that there is no limit to how many Wildfire debuffs that can affect each enemy.
What does this mean? Well, in order to apply several Wildfire debuffs you will have to apply several Immolation Traps(which will require a bit of time to do). But if the enemies are alive long enough for you to use several Immolation Traps on them. Then this talent becomes very useful.

Here is an example of the AoE talents on this row. If we take a fight like Skorpyron(first boss of Nighthold in Legion). The adds in this fight had so low health that the intent with them was to get them down within seconds.
So in a case like this, the faster you can push out all of your damage from an ability the better.

Dire Frenzy + Ferocious Inspiration would be the best option here as you could pump out all 3 charges of the ability at once and get the most damage out before the small scorpids die.

Ever Burning that affects/enhances your Explosive Shot would come in second place here considering how Explosive Shot in itself work. It would benefit more from adds that stay alive longer than the Scorpids usually did in that fight.

In third place you would find Wildfire as I mentioned above, this talent benefits more when the enemies live longer.

Again, as for the exact numbers, I could not say what they should be as we have no way to test this.

I like spitting cobra, as it removes casttime and gives some umph to generating focus.

Some players prefer instant casts while others do not. But yeah, if you pick this and don't want to use Dire Frenzy as a replacement for Quick Shot then you would benefit more as you could possibly prioritize Cobra Shots higher and still get some additional damage out.

I'm in the air with preheat because im still in the air about using traps for main rotation.

My main intent here with the design overall is to bring back the concept of offensive traps. Traps we had in the past that actually harmed enemies. I liked that. It was different from what other classes had.

Rapid recuperation is fine, most specs have a talent that does the same.

More or less yes. I wanted this here purely because it's a way to add even more consistency to your gameplay. For those that want to focus less on timing a major CD and just want to use it as they see fit.

Again, can't say for certain but I estimate it to cut away around 40% of the Rapid Fire CD on average.

Catalysis is my favorite talent as it provides the potential large burst window im looking for.

It does yes, and as the damage bonus effect can gain stacks from fire spells as well(as long as a target is affected by Black Arrow) along with the guaranteed stacks from Black Arrow ticks themselves, you have to potential to gain the full effect rather quickly.

As for how big of a bonus to Explosive Shot damage it should provide. 100% in total might be a bit too much. Again, testing and tuning required!

resourcefulness, see above about traps. I view traps mainly as survival tools. I can see immolation trap being added back in as a dps ability, but not really a fan of it for ice trap. CD reduction for traps I would like to see elsewhere though, as trap enhancement was a feature i used to love of old SV in the open world.

Again, I get your point of view. Some don't like to use traps for damage.
Some do.

I wanted to bring in the CD reduction for traps as this was something from the past.

But the new effect on it that can provide both a offensive damage boost as well as some extra utility(it can save your life if you play it well).
I like this concept. This exact design, afaik, does not exist/has ever existed in WoW before.

How would it actually work?

-Basically, you place your Freezing Trap wherever you want it to be.

-Then, if you press your Freezing Trap(hotkey) again, it will cause the trap to be triggered and form a block of ice that you can use to protect yourself.
The CD countdown on your trap will begin once you have triggered the trap. BUT, if you use the trap to CC an enemy, the CD countdown would work like it currently does on live(the normal 30sec CD).

The idea with the damage boost when hiding behind it is that you can be a bit more reckless with your ability usage despite the risk of an incoming attack(this would not protect your from pulsing damage that you can often find in boss encounters), but it has the potential to protect you from a direct attack/spell.


I hope this was everything! Checking back here later as it's raidtime now.

[Rustov]

It was added into Arcane Shot(not Steady/Cobra Shot) I think, we got this in WoD if my memory serves me right.

It might have been rewarding. But it's only purpose was to remove the actual Serpent Sting ability. The only outcome was that ranged Survival became easier to play.

Some players probably liked this change. I did NOT. I liked having Serpent Sting to be it's own ability. Not baked into Arcane Shot.

What I described was the MoP incarnation. Cobra only reapplied Serpent Sting, the sting had to already be active on the target and then Cobra would extend its duration. Serpent Sting was ideally applied once on a boss, then maintained through careful Cobra Shot rotations. Failure on the rotation front meant having to waste a GCD to reapply it. It was great skill-based gameplay! But Blizzard decided that optimal usage that involved a once-per-fight button press (barring adds, phase downtime, etc) made Serpent a good candidate for their overzealous pruning campaign. Thus the WoD Arcane Shot change, thus the beginning of the end for ranged survival.

[F Rm]

What I described was the MoP incarnation. Cobra only reapplied Serpent Sting, the sting had to already be active on the target and then Cobra would extend its duration. Serpent Sting was ideally applied once on a boss, then maintained through careful Cobra Shot rotations. Failure on the rotation front meant having to waste a GCD to reapply it. It was great skill-based gameplay! But Blizzard decided that optimal usage that involved a once-per-fight button press (barring adds, phase downtime, etc) made Serpent a good candidate for their overzealous pruning campaign. Thus the WoD Arcane Shot change, thus the beginning of the end for ranged survival.

Ah

My memory regarding the state of specs for MoP is quite bad.

I was on a break from early Dragon Soul(Cataclysm) up until the WoD pre-patch.

But that would idd explain it. Sorry, my brain instantly went to WoD when you brought up the removal of Serpent Sting but you're right, it went away earlier.

Still, I would prefer to have Serpent Sting being used more actively rather than just, apply once and that's it(unless you screw up).

[Rustov]

Ah

My memory regarding the state of specs for MoP is quite bad.

I was on a break from early Dragon Soul(Cataclysm) up until the WoD pre-patch.

But that would idd explain it. Sorry, my brain instantly went to WoD when you brought up the removal of Serpent Sting but you're right, it went away earlier.

Still, I would prefer to have Serpent Sting being used more actively rather than just, apply once and that's it(unless you screw up).

I think the depth of gameplay is worth it. If your desire is for a more active DoT, Black Arrow absolutely filled that niche. It was the main Lock and Load supplier, so keeping it as active as its CD allowed was vital.

[F Rm]

I think the depth of gameplay is worth it. If your desire is for a more active DoT, Black Arrow absolutely filled that niche. It was the main Lock and Load supplier, so keeping it as active as its CD allowed was vital.

Perhaps.

Considering with my design suggestion for Black Arrow and it causing you to want to stack up it's DoT on targets several times. This change for Serpent Sting may very well prove to be useful.

As we can't actually test anything, it's hard to say for sure.


The design for Black Arrow(and maybe what your opener sequence could look like), is essentially this:

1) Apply Serpent Sting and Immolation Trap to the target.

2) Apply Black Arrow.

3) Use your first Explosive Shot to get it going.

4) Pop Rapid Fire for the benefits from it(if you run with the T.N.T-talent this will easy your work to stack the duration of Explosive Shot up on the primary target).

5) Explosive Shot again(this will also reset the CD on Black Arrow). (And with the T.N.T-talent, the Explosive Shot debuff on the target will now last almost twice the default duration).

6) Follow up with the second application of Black Arrow(in order to have 2 stacks going on the target).

7) Re-apply Serpent Sting if you haven't had any duration increase-procs applied to it.

8) If you're low on focus here(not likely), you might want to use Steady/Cobra Shot next. If not, then you could add in a Quick Shot(or Dire Frenzy if that talent is chosen). Note: despite not being low on focus, it could be good to still fire off a Steady/Cobra Shot or two in order to safely have focus enough for the next steps. Again, this depends on how much focus each ability costs.

9) Explosive Shot again. And as you would still be under the Rapid Fire-buff, this will reset the CD on Black Arrow. (With the T.N.T talent, Explosive Shot's duration would now have increased to 10 seconds).

10) Use Black Arrow a third time to stack it to full(3 stacks).

11) Depending on what talent's you've picked. You might be able to use Immolation Trap again in a few seconds.
Note: with the T.N.T-talent, keeping Explosive Shot active on the target would still take priority.

12) With all essential debuffs applied to the primary target. You could now move on with the normal priorities. Reapplying DoTs when needed. Making sure not to cap on Explosive Shot charges(and with T.N.T, making sure the DoT stays active for as long as possible). If you have extra focus, fill in with Quick Shot/Dire Frenzy.


Your idea for Steady/Cobra Shots to maintain Serpent Sting(not taking into account eventual procs on the Exotic Ammunitions-passive that might extend it's duration as well), the idea may very well fit in here in case the above would be a bit to hectic. Again, can't say for sure until actual testing can be done.

Also, things such as the mastery bonus: Neurotoxin would potentially affect your opener(your approach whenever you intend to activate Rapid Fire). If you in this case proc a 2/3 stack of Black Arrow on the target instantly then you can prioritize other abilities, such as Quick Shots/Dire Frenzy attacks.
Or if there are multiple enemies present that are not stacked, you can use the extra charges of Black Arrow that you get, and apply them to other targets as well.
If the targets are stacked, it would be much easier to maintain Black Arrow on several/all of them at the same time(only during Rapid Fire though).

Regarding Black Arrow, while it would be fairly easy to stack it up during the Rapid Fire CD, you can stack it even when not under the effect of it. But in order to be able to do that, you would need to be lucky with Exotic Ammunitions procs that extend the duration of Black Arrow on the target.
If you don't have Rapid Fire active and if you do not get any duration extensions, then you would not be able to reapply Black Arrow before the previous application falls off. Which would be the intended way it would work.


Edit: In case you have picked the Viper Venom-talent then manual reapplications of Serpent Sting would very much be something you want to do as the damage boost on Serpent Sting would not apply to the current ones that are active on enemy targets. You would only get that additional damage boost to Serpent Sting when it's applied manually.

Note: This is also one of the reasons that I would be hesitant to have Steady/Cobra Shot maintain the DoTs duration. Again, details that would have to be worked out with testing.

[magiskapk]

This isn't a new topic really, but perhaps a new take on it.