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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    And that has never happened to both sides after a war in the history of the world. See the definition of everyone to find where you went wrong.
    I think you will find that it has happened after WW1, where the Germans were humiliated by the French and British, told to disarm and to pay war reparations.. And I think you may also find that was one of the reasons Hitler initiated WW2, as a form of reprisal among other reasons..

    It was also why when he invaded and conquered France early in WW2, he used the same carriage that was used at the signing of the Treaty of Versailles at the end of WW1, to accept the French surrender and humiliate them in the process..

    OT: As others have said yes they delayed the invasion till they got terrible weather, so that the German airforce could not send out scouting planes to discover the massive naval build up in the channel..
    Last edited by grexly75; 2019-06-08 at 12:45 PM.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by grexly75 View Post
    I think you will find that it has happened after WW1, where the Germans were humiliated by the French and British, told to disarm and to pay war reparations.. And I think you may also find that was one of the reasons Hitler initiated WW2, as a form of reprisal among other reasons..

    It was also why when he invaded and conquered France early in WW2, he used the same carriage that was used at the signing of the Treaty of Versailles at the end of WW1, to accept the French surrender and humiliate them in the process..

    OT: As others have said yes they delayed the invasion till they got terrible weather, so that the German airforce could not send out scouting planes to discover the massive naval build up in the channel..
    I think you’ll find that the word everyone includes the victors.
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    100:1 odds that he wont
    Quote Originally Posted by freefolk View Post
    Okay. I'll stop sharing my views.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Without the massive support of the Allies throughout, the USSR would have been luck to regain the territory it lost.
    It was amazing the Soviets did so well considering at some point in the push west, soldiers would have to share one gun among ten of them.. They also used dogs as mobile explosive devices against tanks..

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by grexly75 View Post
    I think you will find that it has happened after WW1, where the Germans were humiliated by the French and British, told to disarm and to pay war reparations.. And I think you may also find that was one of the reasons Hitler initiated WW2, as a form of reprisal among other reasons..

    It was also why when he invaded and conquered France early in WW2, he used the same carriage that was used at the signing of the Treaty of Versailles at the end of WW1, to accept the French surrender and humiliate them in the process..

    OT: As others have said yes they delayed the invasion till they got terrible weather, so that the German airforce could not send out scouting planes to discover the massive naval build up in the channel..
    They did not delay the invasion for the sake of the weather being bad. German ability to establish air superiority and scout with air planes had been crushed by the middle of 1944. On the contrary, they specifically wanted the sky to be clear both for the sake of air support and their paratroopers, as well as for there to be low tides with a calm sea when landing.

    As well as that, the Germans had no spy presence in Britain by that point, they thought they did, but the British had rooted them all out and were actively feeding the Germans misleading information as part of deception operations by that point.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    I think you’ll find that the word everyone includes the victors.
    True, but not as much as they did to post WW1 Germany.. If you can find the documentary Apocalypse: The Rise of Hitler you will get an idea of what happened during the period between WW1 and WW2..

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    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    They did not delay the invasion for the sake of the weather being bad. German ability to establish air superiority and scout with air planes had been crushed by the middle of 1944. On the contrary, they specifically wanted the sky to be clear both for the sake of air support and their paratroopers, as well as for there to be low tides when landing.

    As well as that, the Germans had no spy presence in Britain by that point, they thought they did, but the British had rooted them all out and were actively feeding the Germans misleading information as part of deception operations by that point.
    Ahh my mistake thought it was the other way around, you are right they delayed it because the day they wanted to start was due to bad weather..

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by freefolk View Post
    If you want to kill a snake, you go for the head.
    This is true, but if you starve a snake to death it can't bite back.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by grexly75 View Post
    True, but not as much as they did to post WW1 Germany.. If you can find the documentary Apocalypse: The Rise of Hitler you will get an idea of what happened during the period between WW1 and WW2..

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    Ahh my mistake thought it was the other way around, you are right they delayed it because the day they wanted to start was due to bad weather..
    I know all about the economic issues they had. My issue is with your statement that unless EVERYONE disarms a war isn’t over. Again, since when do the victors disarm after a war?
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    100:1 odds that he wont
    Quote Originally Posted by freefolk View Post
    Okay. I'll stop sharing my views.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Germany would have been a part of the USSR.

    Not half of Germany, all of it. The Iron Curtain would be on the French border.
    Nah, they could not have controlled all that territory of non-slavic people without all of it dissolving into an unmanageable mess. Even eastern european peoples started rebelling against them in a decade. You think germans would have twiddled their thumbs all that time?
    "It's just like I always said! You can do battle with strength, you can do battle with wits, but no weapon can beat a great pair of tits!"

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by grexly75 View Post
    It was amazing the Soviets did so well considering at some point in the push west, soldiers would have to share one gun among ten of them.. They also used dogs as mobile explosive devices against tanks..
    Enemy at the Gates isn't a documentary.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by i9erek View Post
    Exactly, the USSR was acting based on self-interest. Why should they deserve praise? It's not like they did it for others ... if you're gaining from stuff that's your reward right there, don't expect "praise".
    So all the Eastern European ex-Soviet states, Romania, Poland, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Austria and East Germany should condemn the Soviet Union for the removal of Nazism in these countries and forget about the Red Army casualties that played a part in this?

    Quote Originally Posted by INVASMANIXOXOXO View Post
    Because of Russia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Being "liberated" by the USSR was not exactly a good thing for the Western Slavic countries or the Baltic States. After all, these are the countries asking the US to station troops now....
    And how exactly did you come down to this conclusion? Are you saying it would've been better for these countries to remain under Nazi occupation / collaboration?

    After Allied victory in WW2, industrialization did occur in these countries, as well as modernization and improvement of these countries armed forces for the purpose of self defense. Contrary to what happened after the fall of communism, heavy industry factories were shut down, armed forces' quantity and fighting capability was intentionally brought down to the point where it's pointless to even have them, so instead US troops are stationed there. Let me remind you Gorbachev's Perestroika wasn't particularly well accepted, to say the least, by the governments of East Germany, Bulgaria, Romania and even Czechoslovakia, yet all those governments collapsed one way or another... I wonder who is responsible for that?
    As for US stationing troops, there have been multiple attempts at holding a referendum for leaving NATO and removing US bases from Bulgaria. No referendum happened, and it never will. The colonial government would never allow it, despite the people having democratic right for it. While we're at it - no referendums were held in any of the Eastern European countries for joining NATO and the EU, yet people claim democracy and the people's free will triumphs over the past dictatorship. So, if being liberated by the USSR is a bad thing, how is being liberated by the USA a good thing?
    Also, how exactly was the fragmentation of Yugoslavia by the USA a good thing for the former Yugoslav countries?

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Domcho View Post
    Money - is that your best excuse? You want to compare money with blood?
    We showed up eventually, and our invasion of Normandy pulled a lot of Germans away from the Eastern front, saving Soviet lives.

    So there is that.
    .

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  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    News from 1984 with Soviet propaganda, published by Christian Science Monitor.

    I don't usually attack the source, but come on...
    Nothing wrong with pointing out questionable sources.

    It would also be worth pointing out that freefolk appears to purposely (and likely disingenuously) omit the first few sentences of the article, including this important piece:

    But the Soviet Union, meanwhile, is engaged in a major effort to belittle the contribution of Western countries during World War II.
    To the OP's original question, it becomes rather questionable that we would delay efforts just to hurt the Soviets, especially since we had been giving them aid since 1941 (via the Lend-Lease Act) thru 1945.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy4123 View Post
    Enemy at the Gates isn't a documentary.
    Even though enemy at the gates is a source of many misconceptions, that thing about attaching explosives to dogs as mobile anti-tank weapons is actually true, even if it didn't work out very well, with the soviets stopping shortly after they began with it.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by smityx View Post
    Also why we expedited the dropping of the bombs on Japan as the Russians had started getting involved there and would have gobbled up territory there should the war have lasted longer.
    Another conspiracy theory.

    They dropped the first bomb before the Russians got involved, and they in fact pushed the Russians to get involved (3 months after WWII-Europe ended).

    They simply dropped the bombs when they were ready.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Chicken usa didn't really join the war until the outcome became clear.
    Well, Soviet Russia joined the war in 1939; but on the wrong side.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Yes, they delayed it for the purpose of finding the right weather conditions.
    And the phase of the moon as well - for the tides and a bit of moon-light.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    Even though enemy at the gates is a source of many misconceptions, that thing about attaching explosives to dogs as mobile anti-tank weapons is actually true, even if it didn't work out very well, with the soviets stopping shortly after they began with it.
    I was more talking about the one rifle for ten men comment.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by freefolk View Post
    The allies did mess around Africa and Italy for months. It didn't accomplish much militarily. Soviet soldiers were dying at the time.

    I'm just saying the old Soviets might've had a point.
    "Mess around." If you think that the North Africa and Italy campaigns were just messing around then you need to educate yourself more than just reading a few Soviet theories. The entire point of the North Africa campaign was to take complete control of the Med and have access to Italy, which was considered the Axis' soft underbelly. The Italy campaign had initially been looked at as a way to enter Germany and knock out a major Axis member, but between weather, delays and natural choke points it proved too costly. The N.Africa campaign also attrited huge amounts of Axis resources from soldiers to vehicles and equipment and eventually opened South France to invasion/landings too - these were done in August of 1944 and are referred to as the Champagne Campaign because of the lack of resistance met.

    Also a large amount of the wait was spent amassing overwhelming force to assure minimal losses and enable fast sweeping movements once the landings were completed, combined with achieving aerial supremacy.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    And the phase of the moon as well - for the tides and a bit of moon-light.
    Right. Had they not gone on June 6th, the next chance would have been June 22nd. And there was a massive storm on the 22nd, which meant they probably would have delayed further into July.
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  18. #78
    The Insane Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domcho View Post
    So all the Eastern European ex-Soviet states, Romania, Poland, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Austria and East Germany should condemn the Soviet Union for the removal of Nazism in these countries and forget about the Red Army casualties that played a part in this?





    And how exactly did you come down to this conclusion? Are you saying it would've been better for these countries to remain under Nazi occupation / collaboration?

    After Allied victory in WW2, industrialization did occur in these countries, as well as modernization and improvement of these countries armed forces for the purpose of self defense. Contrary to what happened after the fall of communism, heavy industry factories were shut down, armed forces' quantity and fighting capability was intentionally brought down to the point where it's pointless to even have them, so instead US troops are stationed there. Let me remind you Gorbachev's Perestroika wasn't particularly well accepted, to say the least, by the governments of East Germany, Bulgaria, Romania and even Czechoslovakia, yet all those governments collapsed one way or another... I wonder who is responsible for that?
    As for US stationing troops, there have been multiple attempts at holding a referendum for leaving NATO and removing US bases from Bulgaria. No referendum happened, and it never will. The colonial government would never allow it, despite the people having democratic right for it. While we're at it - no referendums were held in any of the Eastern European countries for joining NATO and the EU, yet people claim democracy and the people's free will triumphs over the past dictatorship. So, if being liberated by the USSR is a bad thing, how is being liberated by the USA a good thing?
    Also, how exactly was the fragmentation of Yugoslavia by the USA a good thing for the former Yugoslav countries?
    I'm saying it would have been far better for them to have been liberated by the US/UK (or preferably never invaded by the USSR to begin with) than being "liberated" by the USSR.

    The heavy industries of the former Warsaw Pact countries were often unable to compete in a free market and/or were horribly polluting. That is why they failed. As for the armed forces, those were cut just like NATO's forces were cut at the time. Plus, the equipment they had was largely junk and needed to be replaced with superior, NATO compliant, gear and weapons. Countries like Poland have an overall superior military than they did in 1990.

    Bulgaria has a democratically elected government, as do the rest of Eastern European NATO countries. Thus, they joined NATO in the same manner that the US did, by vote of representative government.

    Per capita GDP East Germany vs West Germany says it all when it comes to why being liberated by the US was better than the USSR. Or you can look at the forced relocation of borders (and people) by the USSR post war.
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  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by freefolk View Post
    The allies did mess around Africa and Italy for months. It didn't accomplish much militarily. Soviet soldiers were dying at the time.

    I'm just saying the old Soviets might've had a point.
    It accomplished a great deal. Maybe you should study some history to understand why.

  20. #80
    Victors get to write history. That is all.
    "Come what come may, Time and the hour runs through the roughest day." — William Shakespeare.

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