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  1. #81
    Legendary! Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Are u for real? Go back to school


  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    You should blame your own country for not even having a gun for each soldier. No wonder so many died. Russia thought "just send bodies at it and eventually I guess we'll win." You should be thanking capitalism and American industry for saving your soldiers lives.
    Soviet Union is not my country, nor is Enemy at the gates a documentary. This type of ignorance where the USA defeated Nazi Germany and saved Europe from Nazism, while hiding behind the Atlantic for the first few years of the war, might work for the average American brain that studies history through Hollywood, but don't be so primitive to expect the rest of the world is on the same education level as you. Look at the Wehrmacht forces ratio between the Eastern and Western front. I am not downplaying the role the men on the Western front played. I am thankful they finally crossed the Atlantic, went through hell on the Normandy beaches and endured the freezing months in the Ardennes, as well as the war participation in Italy, but claiming the lend-lease and the late participation saved Europe is just as stupid as claiming the USSR defeated Japan.

    By the way, try to find the date when the USA declared war on Nazi Germany if you can.

  3. #83
    Over 9000! zealo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domcho View Post
    Soviet Union is not my country, nor is Enemy at the gates a documentary. This type of ignorance where the USA defeated Nazi Germany and saved Europe from Nazism, while hiding behind the Atlantic for the first few years of the war, might work for the average American brain that studies history through Hollywood, but don't be so primitive to expect the rest of the world is on the same education level as you. Look at the Wehrmacht forces ratio between the Eastern and Western front. I am not downplaying the role the men on the Western front played. I am thankful they finally crossed the Atlantic, went through hell on the Normandy beaches and endured the freezing months in the Ardennes, as well as the war participation in Italy, but claiming the lend-lease and the late participation saved Europe is just as stupid as claiming the USSR defeated Japan.

    By the way, try to find the date when the USA declared war on Nazi Germany if you can.
    It's not just in America so much as exposure to American influence in the western world in general. The general opinions of people in Europe shifted dramatically during the cold war, as opposed to immediately after the war.

    E.g
    Last edited by zealo; 2019-06-10 at 01:05 PM.

  4. #84
    They obviosuly counted europe as lost to the nazis until hitler did the insormountably stupid thing of breaking the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact and invade soviet prematurly.
    And tbh in the start of the nazi invasion of the soviet looked really successfull. The US had no reason to suspect that the east-european front of ww2 would end up as it did. I dont think anyone at the time realized just how strong the ideology of the sovet regime was, their willingness to keep fighting even after so many millions of people died.

    You keep hearing about how fanatic the japanese were but even the two nuclear bombs wich were dropped over highdensity citys with civillian populations still doesnt come close to the absolute slaughter that occured on the eauropean east front. It was a dirty war and its pretty much the reason why we later had the Geneva Conventions.

    sure 1944 may sound late but one must also consider two things. It probobly takes some time to plan and enact such an assault aswell once it was clear the nazis did "not have europe in-hand", and secondly there is the pacific war wich probobly took some attention.
    Last edited by Aphrel; 2019-06-10 at 01:30 PM.
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  5. #85
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    No one could say this for sure, there are so many documents kept under lock, the question is why?
    Therefore the answers you will get can only fit in some political agenda, if its true no one knows.
    The past tells me (us) they ruined our trust so many times, so nothing is unthinkable.

  6. #86
    Banned Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aenigma84 View Post
    about 84% of lend & lease was shipped in mid 1943-1945
    by then stalingrad was over and the germans where already being pushed back

    if you look at eastern front 1943 by then the soviets had over 10million forces vs less then 4 million germans left
    and the russians where producing 10x asmuch as germans in terms of tanks & planes and actually had fuel

    so fairly sure no lend lease would have slowed russia down but they would stil end up in western europe eventually
    wich would not have been a good thing
    Lend-lease provided the bulk of Soviet logistic vehicles, which allowed for the advancement of the Red Army. There is also the simple fact that US/UK involvement diverted substantial amounts of material and manpower away from the Eastern Front.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Aenigma84 View Post
    about 84% of lend & lease was shipped in mid 1943-1945
    by then stalingrad was over and the germans where already being pushed back
    But that was becuse the Germans ruched troops to Tunisia to counter the american Operation Torch, imagen if 5th Panzer Army was at Stalingrad insted of Tunisia, and a huge numbe of day-fighters that is not needed to defend agenst US bombings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aenigma84 View Post
    if you look at eastern front 1943 by then the soviets had over 10million forces vs less then 4 million germans left
    Then USSR are doomed in the long run if they fight alone, becuse the exchange rate was 2,8 to 1 in 1943

    Quote Originally Posted by Aenigma84 View Post
    and the russians where producing 10x asmuch as germans in terms of tanks & planes and actually had fuel
    where do you get the numbers? Germany did make about 100 000 plane, 50 000 AFV USSR did make about 100 000 plane, and 100 000 AFV and yes USSR did have fule thanks to US deliveries, the USSR air force was totaly dependent on US aviation fuel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aenigma84 View Post
    so fairly sure no lend lease would have slowed russia down but they would stil end up in western europe eventually
    wich would not have been a good thing
    So what food will the Red army eat? What boots will they march in? What fabric will the unifrom be made of? What Radio will the officers use to cordinate the troops? What trucks and trains will USSR use for ther logistic needs? How will warmaterlial be made widout US machine tools. As you see USSR was totaly dependent on west for "soft" military equipment.

    How do you know its will not be a good thing? Berlin get nuked 1945 and it the iron curtin will start at the border of USSR.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Lend-lease provided the bulk of Soviet logistic vehicles, which allowed for the advancement of the Red Army. There is also the simple fact that US/UK involvement diverted substantial amounts of material and manpower away from the Eastern Front.
    i'm not saying the americans and UK didnt do their part, they definatly did

    but the Lend lease didnt really kick off until after Stalingrad was over wich is generally viewed to be the turningpoint of the war,
    add to that the russians where outproducing germans it was fairly inevitable, but it would have been alot slower and more painfull for both sides for sure

    especially when the russians take over romania its over, no more oil for germany

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Lend-lease provided the bulk of Soviet logistic vehicles, which allowed for the advancement of the Red Army. There is also the simple fact that US/UK involvement diverted substantial amounts of material and manpower away from the Eastern Front.

    25-30% of Soviet air power came from Lend Lease aviation fuel and aluminum.

    America sent 2,000 locomotives to Russia and tens of thousands of rail cars. This enabled the Soviets to shift more production towards tanks, guns, etc.
    .

    "This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."

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  10. #90
    I believe they did because according to Churchill stating in reports from spies, "They want to allow Russia to wear down Germany so we don't have to get involved as much". Churchill wanted to try and preserve the old colonial style of UK and that just was not going to happen. With Germany essentially on the UK's doorstep and biding time, Churchill believed that Russia would slow Germany down after the Eastern front became a thing in "43".

    The "US" and the "UK" also hated communism and it's ideals completely. Communism was about as bad as the National Socialism of the Nazi party. FYI, "I will say that both parties have some high's and lows and I'm not entirely against them 100%. However, once Germany was entrenched and slowed by the winter of "43" and "44", Russia was already on a power-foot pushing Germany back and defending well. Once Churchill and Roosevelt knew that Russia was handling Germany quite well in the East, they decided to prepare for a full force, strength of arms and man-power and one quick, swoop push hard, "All In" go at France. Of course all of this was after the US spent 2 years in Africa and the Baltic states seizing German occupied oil fields to choke the supply of resources back to Germany.

    Once the US secured the oil fields, "43" the big plan was set for 44 to kick ass. At this point Russia had already let millions of soldiers and civilians die from starvation, disease, etc. However, do not forget that Russia did play a "HUGE" role in the defense of it's mainland and help saving Europe. I'd like to say the Allies stalled a little bit to counter German aggression and Soviet land grabbing in late and early "45". So the US had to go "NOW", as Stalin had urged.

    I think the US just wanted to make sure all production was maxed out for a Japanese and European offensive all at once. And it worked extremely well.

    Back to stating that, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend, for now" thing, as Churchill, Roosevelt, Stalin had agreed. After 45, Russia was the next big baddie and history was written on that as follows.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    If they had attacked in 1943 they probably would've encountered a bloody repulse.

    If they had attacked in 1942 they 100% would've encountered a bloody repulse.

    A massive amphibious invasion against a strongly held coastline is a pretty difficult thing to pull off without air supremacy.
    They did attempt a raid on the coast of Normandy in 1942 and had their asses handed to them.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieppe_Raid

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    Quote Originally Posted by Domcho View Post
    The invasion itself - probably not. The war participation overall - yes, they delayed it. I think Stalin returned the favor by delaying the invasion of Manchuria though.
    Not really. Just like the Normandy landings, the invasion of Manchuria required huge logistical preparations - namely, hauling the Soviet army from one end of Eurasia to the other.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Domcho View Post

    By the way, try to find the date when the USA declared war on Nazi Germany if you can.
    December 11th 1941. Just after Germany declared war on the US.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Germany would have been a part of the USSR.

    Not half of Germany, all of it. The Iron Curtain would be on the French border.
    More like on the coast of the Channel, expanding on Hitler's Atlantic Wall.

    France would have gotten "liberated" by the Reds, and you can bet they would have elected a government friendly to them and relying on continued Soviet occupation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    The Christian Science Monitor? How do those words even go together?
    It is semantically sound. Christians, keeping a wary eye on (monitoring) suspicious science.

  14. #94
    People talking about the massive economic support of the USSR by the allies are correct, it’s hard to say if the Soviets would have gotten through 1942 without it. Still, by 1944 the western powers could have sat on their hands and the Reich would still have collapsed around the same time. The main difference would have come after, as the Iron Curtain would have included all of Germany, Austria and probably Finland and Greece too.

    That would only have happened though if some kind of catastrophic defeat had upended the Pacific war, and the Americans had to change their priorities to compensate.

    And yes, an invasion of France in 1943 would have been much less likely to succeed. It would probably have taken place before Kursk, so that instead of the Germans wasting their tank armies smashing against Soviet defenses they would have been sent west, and they would have gotten there mostly intact because the Allies didn’t have air supremacy at that point. Combine that with a year’s less of buildup in the UK and you have a probable defeat in either Normandy or Calais.

    In 1942…look up Dieppe for a glimpse of how that would have gone.

  15. #95
    Merely a Setback Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    More like on the coast of the Channel, expanding on Hitler's Atlantic Wall.

    France would have gotten "liberated" by the Reds, and you can bet they would have elected a government friendly to them and relying on continued Soviet occupation.

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    It is semantically sound. Christians, keeping a wary eye on (monitoring) suspicious science.
    Christian Science is a pseudoscience claiming, in short, that belief in God is what you need to be cured of disease. They're the ones who get into controversial trials for neglecting their sick kids because "god will provide." And if you get sick and die? You didn't have enough faith.
    Putin khuliyo

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Christian Science is a pseudoscience claiming, in short, that belief in God is what you need to be cured of disease. They're the ones who get into controversial trials for neglecting their sick kids because "god will provide." And if you get sick and die? You didn't have enough faith.
    Yes, I agree that's probably how they meant the title. I decided to parse it differently.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by freefolk View Post
    Did the allies delay the invasion of Normandy on purpose?
    No, but they did deliberately launch it early.

    It had to be done before everything was 100% ready due to the speed at which the coast of France was being fortified. If they had waited another 6-12 months until they had everything they wanted/needed then the goal would have been impossible anyway so they had to work with what they had.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Without the massive support of the Allies throughout, the USSR would have been luck to regain the territory it lost.
    Not really.

    Germany lost the war the second they invaded the USSR, after that the USA could have just kept out of it and the UK could have just waited on our island for Berlin to fall. All that our wartime assistance to the USSR really did was reduce the amount that Germany penetrated into the USSR before being hammered back, once the Soviet steamroller was rolling Germany had no hope of stopping it.

    In reality the true goal of the Normandy landings wasn't to defeat Germany as that was already guaranteed well before that point, our forces needed to get to Berlin ASAP so that the USSR actually stopped there and didn't just take the whole of mainland Europe for themselves and their puppet governments.

    Ironically the biggest help the USSR got during WW2 wasn't even from an ally, nothing in the war helped them as much as Japan's attack on pearl harbour, because once Japan were occupied with the USA they because a much much smaller threat so masses of forces could be diverted to the eastern front that were previously required to counter any threat of Japanese invasion.
    Last edited by caervek; 2019-06-11 at 07:02 PM.

  18. #98
    Herald of the Titans Aurabolt's Avatar
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    By a day due to weather, yes.

    Stalin was pushing for the US and UK to push in from the West because he was getting tired of playing defense and wanted to go on the offensive against Hitler so bad for breaking their pact. That aside, Churchill knew the USSR, in time could've routed Germany of their own. He was thinking beyond Germany though and knew the USSR could turn on the Allies once Germany was dealt with.

    D-Day itself was 3 parts well-prepared-for and 1 part luck. Folks forget or don't know the Allies fooled Nazi Spies and pre-bombed fake target zones. If the Nazis didn't take the bait, the landing would've been a catastrophic failure. German defenders were not as concentrated in the chosen landing spots and even the token defenders were well equipped. The Allied Forces knew the fate of the world rode on the mission succeeding. It's known as the largest Amphbious Assault Ever Attempted for a reason. A third of the soldiers involved didn't return alive.

    Folks also forget the US Was fighting on two fronts: Europe and the Pacific. The U.S. also had the majority of its military concentrated in the Pacific and didn't want to compromise their forces in the Pacific for D-Day. Most of the soldiers sent to Europe for D-Day were fresh out of Boot Camp unlike the Pacific.

    If we're gonna talk alternate history, imagine if Russia and the US fought over Berlin. World War II prolly would've continued for a few more years before a peace treaty was eventually be signed. After the U.S. bombed Japan he could've used that as justification to take over Europe, annex the Korean Peninsula and fight the U.S. for Japan. A ripple effect to that is the U.S. probably would've annexed The Philippines or parts of it as the 50th state (Hawaii would be 51). That way, the U.S. Could build more military bases in the Pacific and take command of the Filippino soldiers already there to help deal with Russia.

    The Philippines became a U.S. Territory after World War II until 1985 when Reagan granted them independence . A huge mistake IMO, the U.S. lost a huge foothold in the South Pacific that China and Japan were happy to take advantage of. The U.S. should've kept some of the Filippino islands just to have an additional presence outside Hawaii but that's a rant for another time lol.
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  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    This thread made me realize how quick certain people are to claim ownership and pride of the good deeds of their ancestors, but complain also they arent their ancestors when the bad deeds are pointed out.
    This is why nationalism is cancer.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by freefolk View Post
    Did the allies delay the invasion of Normandy on purpose?
    I agree with many here with the weather possibly playing a big part in the delay.
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