Baldurs Gate 3

[Florena]

Sure. Blizz can for example make WoW talent respecs possible only at a class trainer in SW/Ogri again, at a fee. Doesn't mean it's convenient for players, nor smart in general.

Tabletop games don't translate 1:1 into video games. During D&D session GM can make suggestions for a build or bend the adventure a little so crappy build player wont suffer too much. There is zero good reason not to introduce re-spec in cRPG's, where building your characters plays a major role. Like you said, tt punishes experimentation and new players in general. Even if the title is more for hardcores (like Kingmaker), it unnecessarily pushes away players new to the genre that maybe want to try it. Not sure how some players are against it (but hey, same type of peeps claim that easy mode for Souls games will ruin their own hardcore experience).

DMs can also allow respecs at their discression, there are really no hard set rules in a tabletop where the DM's word is law. A DM can be as flexible or as rigid as they please.

When I was kind of not satisfied with my Mastermind Rogue for example my DM let me switch to Arcane Trickster and worked out a story reason to explain it. Same thing when the wizard, a relatively new player, wanted to swap subclasses.

[Hinastorm]

This was in response to the post above mine, which mentioned immersion. It is more immersive (for some), as it is way more logical that forgetting everything doesn't allow you to be suddenly good at something else, since you never put the effort into the new things. EXP as a mechanic does usually not imply you have magic training points that can reshape you however you want. Of course gameplay-wise respeccing is absolutely desireable and a good idea to implement right away.

Ya indeed, sacrificing gameplay for some ephemeral element like "immersion", which half of players won't care about anyway, is poor game design.

[Kilpi]

There is no such thing as "should be" in design. People can make whatever they want.

Sure, but there are good design choices and bad ones. Leaving any kind of option of respec from an RPG in my opinion is a bad one. So, it should it. You can also make a modern RPG game without manual saves and loads, but you shouldn't.

[Gaidax]

I think such things as respec should be available to players, then it's up to player whether they use it or not.

That said, even if Larian won't include it - it will just be modded in. I expect Larian to do include it because they are heavy on player agency and let players play the game the way they want to.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I think such things as respec should be available to players, then it's up to player whether they use it or not.

That said, even if Larian won't include it - it will just be modded in. I expect Larian to do include it because they are heavy on player agency and let players play the game the way they want to.

I certainly wouldn't be surprised. I was already expecting it tbh after finding the mindflayer in the Underdark fungal village, especially after finding a personal resurrection service in the temple near the start before.

[Fencers]

Sure, but there are good design choices and bad ones.

Subjectively, yes. Objectively, no.

You really can design whatever you want.

[BeepBoo]

Subjectively, yes. Objectively, no.

You really can design whatever you want.

Exactly. All it takes is one person, or not even.. the question is really "theoretically, is it possible that someone would like this?" to break the "this is objectively better" thing. People need to differentiate between things that have an actual single truth (which means it qualifies for "objective") and something that has no actual objectivity. It's entirely possible someone would really REALLY like no respec option... for whatever reason.

As for the game, I keep hoping to see more large updates, but I feel like their progress is putting them on-track for a timeframe way far away from now. I also want them to release more classes so I can experiment. I wish game companies would just keep it in their pants until closer to release but it seems everyone likes the hype train now-a-days.

[Aliven]

Subjectively, yes. Objectively, no.

You really can design whatever you want.

So negative possibilty space has no objective bad points?

Game design, as anything, has good practices and bad practices. Objectively. And bad and good design.

[BeepBoo]

Game design, as anything, has good practices and bad practices. Objectively. And bad and good design.

False. It's entirely possible someone views a game that is inefficient in it's code as "good" or something that follows anti-patterns in design is exactly what they are after (meaning, again, they view it as "good"). Only being willing to think of things from one view-point and definition of "good" doesn't somehow make your "this is objective!" statement any more true. There is more than one possible goal in design.

You have to get REALLY specific in your definitions and assumptions if you want to objectively analyze something.

"It is objectively worse, as far as getting the highest framerates possible, to use this practice" etc.

The thing is with that type of objectivity, it's really easy for someone to say "I don't really give a shit" and then you have no leg to stand on. It's entirely possible for Lyrian to just flat out say "we don't give a shit that a majority of people find it bad there is no respec option" and you'd just be SOL.

"Framerate is not a consideration we care about"
"popularity of our design choices isn't the most important thing"
etc.

[Fencers]

So negative possibilty space has no objective bad points?

Game design, as anything, has good practices and bad practices. Objectively. And bad and good design.

Nah, it doesn't work that way. The qualifiers of "bad" and "good" are entirely subjective. You would not be able to assign a value objectively and independently of both the designer's intent and your own bias.


This is what I said above and it is completely true without exception:

Gameplay is a metaphor. It is entirely possible and reasonable for a designer to create an experience progression that does not allow reversing a decision made along the path without giving care to immersion or plausibility. Both of which are not gameplay- they are irrelevant to gameplay actually.

All a designer has to do is decide X is expressed by Y and that is coherent gameplay design. There is nothing in between.

[Warning]

Nah, it doesn't work that way. The qualifiers of "bad" and "good" are entirely subjective. You would not be able to assign a value objectively and independently of both the designer's intent and your own bias.


This is what I said above and it is completely true without exception:

Dnno this whole discussion seems like semantics to me, yes fun is subjective but at the same time there are decisions that are always going to be considered horrible by 99% of the people playing video games. Those decisions you could pretty justly call bad game design because they make a game generally disliked and will bankrupt your gamestudio if you use them in your games too much. Examples would be: 1. Hiding some random item someplace in the start of the game that you end up needing at the end of the game but might easily overlook. 2. Super random or unforeseeable instant death mechanics with harsh penalties for dying or permadeath. 3. Island Expeditions (jk, sorta).

Larian in their design is likely going to make some choices that take some of the worst sting out of tabletop mechanics. For instance they're going to let people rest more frequently than a DM probably would because they don't want someone who's 200 hours into the game to end up saving in a bad position where they can't rest or otherwise recover from and having to start over.

They may or may not allow you to change your build, I think that ones' less obvious though I can see how someone misclicking and feeling like their character is ruined might be something they want to avoid and put some mechanics in place for. Stuff like that doesn't happen in tabletop, but in videogames you need to consider these things or your game will be needlessly frustrating.

In general I think their changes have almost all been for the better, and I feel like what they need to do is add more of their own ideas to improve the combat especially for martial classes who currently don't really have enough abilities or unique strengths to make for fun and interesting tactical gameplay. They could also do with toning down the RNG a bit more. For example Sacred Flame is a total joke right now.

[Fencers]

Dnno this whole discussion seems like semantics to me, yes fun is subjective but at the same time there are decisions that are always going to be considered horrible by 99% of the people playing video games.

That's irrelevant to my posts though.

Wanting to make a super popular game may not be a designer's goal either. We would have a lot of very similar games if that was the case. Even among high commercial products (such as mainstream video games), there still is artistic and creative intent. And that can be anything.

People can create anything they want for the most part in any medium or genre of art and media. Liking it or assigning a value judgment is largely subjective to the individual and/or contextual.

[Cosmic Janitor]

So I bought BG3 when it became available and played just a little bit before I realized I'd rather wait until there was going to be much more content to sink into rather than replay the same small amount over and over as more was added. Is it at a point now where there is a significant amount of the story implemented or is it still just a small portion that's available? I'm really jonesing for some D&D/RPG goodness and I've discovered that Divinity doesn't do it for me so I'd really like to dive into some BG3.

It's still only the first act and that won't change anytime soon. Small is relative as well. I got like 30-40 hours out of it iirc, but it ends on a cliffhanger where you set out to face a boss/another threat but during the transfer to the location you get the "thanks for playing" screen. So it's at a point where I'd say it's entertainment but obviously unsatisfying if you care about the overall story.

[Zenfoldor]

Well, I haven't been following this and I'm just popping in....but it looks like the same discussions as last time I checked.

I'm sure you've talked about it, but my perception is that DOS2 was treated like a raid in WoW on difficulty. It was nerfed over time, a little more and more with each patch, right? Just much more slowly. Lots of QoL changes that seem small but they weren't. Is that accurate? I assume similar will happen here, but my whole perception could be wrong. Did DoS2 launch with respec or was it added later?

I know I know so much less about this than yall do and I'm just guessing....but I suspect they will launch the game hard and it will be easier by the time they are done with it years later, no? Probably respec included with that, if not in at launch?

Also, I know some decisions seem set in stone now, but once a full release happens, community feedback can really erode confidence, and developers should probably never say never imho. Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

I know in DoS2, I literally lived on that boat to respec, lol. We'll see, but I'm a huge respec proponent and I'm not even worried, lol.

[ClassicPeon]

Hey guys. Whats the feeling on a possible release date in here?

Its supposed to be released somtime in 2021 but i've seen more and more youtubers(i know) saying they doubt its coming this year.

Cant wait to try out some more of the classes and i'm hoping they will add more companions.

[quras]

Hey guys. Whats the feeling on a possible release date in here?

Feelings on a possible release date...? Probably 2022. Even knowing DOS2 released a year after it's EA and thats what most were basing their hopes on but I don't get the feeling BG3 will make that October 2021 date as thats when it's EA started.

Its supposed to be released somtime in 2021 but i've seen more and more youtubers(i know) saying they doubt its coming this year. SNIP...

At no point has larian ever said a release date. There really isn't a "supposed to release date". Never has been one. Lots and lots of speculation but no mention of one ever. Gamers would love to have had one and come up with all kinds of ideas on a release date but nothing yet.

In that, I'd love to see it released this year but they would have to be much farther along than we have information about it.

[dlld]

Feelings on a possible release date...? Probably 2022. Even knowing DOS2 released a year after it's EA and thats what most were basing their hopes on but I don't get the feeling BG3 will make that October 2021 date as thats when it's EA started.



At no point has larian ever said a release date. There really isn't a "supposed to release date". Never has been one. Lots and lots of speculation but no mention of one ever. Gamers would love to have had one and come up with all kinds of ideas on a release date but nothing yet.

In that, I'd love to see it released this year but they would have to be much farther along than we have information about it.

I believe the only thing said officially is that it would be in EA for at least a year.

[quras]

I believe the only thing said officially is that it would be in EA for at least a year.

Yep.

This is their full quote from their EA Information page:

How long will the game be in Early Access?
Though Act 1 (the content for Early Access) is defined, Acts 2 and 3 are work in progress. It’s therefore difficult to predict when 1.0 will launch. We anticipate Baldur’s Gate 3 being in Early Access for at least one year but we’ll have to see how it goes. It’ll be ready when it’s ready.

[ClassicPeon]

I believe the only thing said officially is that it would be in EA for at least a year.

Could have sworn they said something about it in the panel from hell, but apparently i was mistaken.

Man i hope i dont have to wait till 2022

[Cosmic Janitor]

Could have sworn they said something about it in the panel from hell, but apparently i was mistaken.

Man i hope i dont have to wait till 2022

You have a snowballs chance in hell that it releases this year. We are nearing the half-way point of the year and the visible progress of the last 6 months was practically non-existent. They are missing a bunch of classes and 2/3 of the content.