Spelladin, new Retribution meta for classic

[Jester Joe]

Ok first off, that thread is talking about TBC. Pummeler got changed to give haste rating which already means the effect is drastically reduced at 70.
Secondly, there's no build in that thread. No math, no testing, no logs, no nothing. It's some random discussions about MCP. Certainly nothing that even come close to qualify as actual theorycrafting and the thread has nothing at all to do with Spelladin.

So you start off by saying that the set didn't work in TBC because it was changed by then, yet still insist the thread was talking about TBC?

They mentioned TBC specifically, and THEN tacked on the MCP idea after. Nothing about "In TBC I did this". And like you said, the weapon was already changed by then so it's pretty safe to say they're talking about in vanilla when the thread was about the "old ret playstyle".

What are you trying to prove here? If there's anything specifically about the Spelladin build and the math behind it you disagree with then please point it out so we can discuss it.

That when you have several people coming in here with proof that this build has been known yet you're trying to tell them "no, this is new!" people are gonna get frustrated?

But straight up lying about the build having been theorycrafted in the past when the thread doesnt have a single piece of math or datasamples or logs? I dont see the point. If your definition of theorycrafting is that someone mentioned one of the items used in the build at some point then please do us all a favor and never attempt to do anything regarding theorycrafting. You clearly dont grasp how it works or worse, you get it and you just dont care.

What are you even on about?

No one cares about logs but you. You're moving the goalpost so far. The fact of the matter is this was known already, whether you like it or not.
Nitpicking that "well you know we have no proof of what kind of damage it did!" is irrelevant. The point is it was known.

Nowhere did I say the build was "theorycrafted", but that it EXISTED already and was known. So going around slandering to try to prove a point by putting words in my mouth is just silly.

[Linkedblade]

Because it also increase your heals ?

Spellpower is for offensive spells. +Healing done is for healing.

[Tweedzz]

Even if it is decent, I don’t see why you would bother? It requires an insane amount of farming (MCP in addition to anything else) to work and that just does not seem worthwhile unless it actually was the #1 dps by a mile. Is the hours spent farming MCP really worth minutes of decent but not top dps?

[Bbobert]

Spellpower is for offensive spells. +Healing done is for healing.

In classic there is no spell power. Here is an example of the actual text from an item in classic:
Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 23.

That item increased spell damage and healing by up to 23.

[collax]

First of the on-use buff on the MCP has only three charges and has a cool down. Once three charges has been used the weapon is rendered useless for a level 60. It's has a 19% drop chance on the last boss in a very long dungeon.

If you have the backdoor key, you can get to the boss in about 5min.

[Holyfrog]

Nowhere did I say the build was "theorycrafted", but that it EXISTED already and was known. So going around slandering to try to prove a point by putting words in my mouth is just silly.

If the build is not theorycrafted then how can it be known? You are contradicting yourself here. A build that has not been theorycrafted is called speculating. It is not an actual build at that point.

I think you know a build is a lot more than just a single item. You claimed people were talking about the build in the past and the only linked thread is one where the Manual Crowd Pummeler was talked about specifically. So saying the build has been talked about in the past just isnt true.

That when you have several people coming in here with proof that this build has been known yet you're trying to tell them "no, this is new!" people are gonna get frustrated?

But it IS new.

You are claiming people came in here with proof that the build has been known when the link show nothing of the sort. The thread in question simply talk about the MCP and how it can potentially be a good weapon. Nobody in that thread attempted to apply the MCP in any meaningful way and perform any sort of calculations to test its potential. Trying to claim that thread is the same as the build being known is absolutely absurd.

No one cares about logs but you. You're moving the goalpost so far. The fact of the matter is this was known already, whether you like it or not.
Nitpicking that "well you know we have no proof of what kind of damage it did!" is irrelevant. The point is it was known.

Repeating yourself over and over wont make what you are saying true though. I would expect a moderator with 28.000 posts to at least have the ability to comprehend what the thread that was linked says. And the thread has nothing to do with the Spelladin build.

Saying the Spelladin build was known based on a thread where people talk about one specific item that is part of the build is proof the build was known is like saying Dualwield tanking was a known meta strat back in the day based on a thread where someone mentions dualwield. It's apples and oranges.

Why cant we just discuss the actual build itself? Instead the thread is getting derailed with a bunch of irrelevant nonsense. If someone doesnt think the build will work then they should focus on some specific aspect of the build, or the underlying mechanics and tell us what part of the theorycrafting they disagree with.

Making a statement that the build simply suck without further going into details and explaining why they think it sucks is not helpful at all. I just wish people werent so damn disingenuous.

[solarfallz]

Not to split hairs, but "meta" isn't the right term to use for a spec that is immensely underwhelming. The term "meta" stands for the most effective tactic available.

lol'd. Saving this for next time someone absolutely must be trolled.

[Holyfrog]

Mhm. With actual seal scaling MCP wont be viable over a proper spellpower mainhand.

No way. The MCP has a 2.0 second speed. Seal of Righteousness damage is based on weapon speed, but increasing your attackspeed by haste effects will not change the seal damage itself. So increasing your attackspeed by 53% (Because of counterweight on the MCP) is effectively a 53% increase in the DPS from the Seal as well as increasing the frequency of your other procs like Shadow Oil and Chili by 53%.

No other weapon can get close to the DPS potential of the MCP on a single target.

[God Save The King]

not some made up acronym from fortnite kids

The acronym predates WoW. I remember using both versions in EQ. No need to blame a recent game just because you're bitter about it's success.

[kail]

Spellpower is for offensive spells. +Healing done is for healing.

Spell power was introduced in Wrath. Until then there was spell damage and healing. Both tended to be together as a single stat line but healing gear would be noticeable by having more spell healing compared to damage.

[Charge me Doctor]

After considering the amount of farming for 10 or 20 MCPs, which don't stack, when will a person have the time to farm gold or mats for all the other buffs they will need to be competitive? Also the DPS, if it's actually any good, will only be good for 30 seconds at a time. What happens if a player's guild wipes 6 times on the same boss and all of their MCP's are on CD or they run out of them? It just sounds impossible for a person with a job to do and if a person does have the time, they'd be better of playing a warrior, rogue, or mage and do more damage with less farming.

He won't. That why this ridiculous idea of using MCP in any serious environment by anyone was dumped after 5-6 gnomeregan runs.
It happened literally every time someone seen MCP - they get all hyped up about the idea o using it at level 60, then abandon such idea, because it's ridiculous to spend days on farming this shit just to wipe 30 times on chromaggus



Also it's ridiculous that people think that they can come up with some "new" builds in classic after 15 years. Like, seriously, dude...

[arkanon]

This was a joke at the expense of someone I had a very long discussion with about a week ago. This whole post pretty much proves my point I was making to him.

So......i wouldnt really call anything in here proof....this spec isnt new, it didnt work, and wasnt used in progression or anything serious. But it makes me chuckle how you awkwardly just claimed a victory from another thread from a week ago without anyone else having any context at all.

- - - Updated - - -

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Angry alt account confirmed and ban inc.

[Charge me Doctor]

This is like a very old spec idea. Doesn’t work in pve and u can decimate someone every 3m in pvp. Other than that. U r pretty much useless.

I mean, for PvP you can stop on having just one MCP and use it on a flag carrier or something. But in PvE you'd have to have 1 guy who'd farm pots/oil/weight/food for you, 1 guy who'd farm gold for you (in case of need to buy shit that other guys didn't crafted), and you'd have to spend ridiculous amount of times (and wasting ridiculous amount of your 80-or-so bag space (reagents for blessings, your own profession, multiple MCP, consumables, oils/weights - everything to be ready for at least 4 hours of raiding)), you'd have to convince people to give you gear, you'd have convince people that you are even worth keeping around. You have to, basically, build a dedicated group of players who'd want to try to make it work for you.

[Super Kami Dende]

It isn't a new idea, it was done many times in Vanilla. It just worked worse in practice than it did in theory.

[Holyfrog]

So......i wouldnt really call anything in here proof....this spec isnt new, it didnt work, and wasnt used in progression or anything serious. But it makes me chuckle how you awkwardly just claimed a victory from another thread from a week ago without anyone else having any context at all.

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Angry alt account confirmed and ban inc.

Is this how these forums work? We just decide whoever we disagree with are posting from alt accounts are ask for them to get banned? It was not my intention to come across as angry as my previous posts, but please. Try to see it from my perspective.

We spend months working on a particular build to get it to the point where it actually works and starts to show promising results in a raids setting, make buildguides and try to share it with a community. I can understand skepticism. I can understand perfectly if raids are not willing to take a spec they consider inferior, and I can understand perfectly if the build seem like its unrealistic expensive.

The point of the build is to show potential. Some players do really enjoy to tryhard underdog specs and I include myself among them. If someone is actually interested in putting in the tremendous effort in preparation in order to play a build like this they should at least know it can be done.

But what I cannot understand is why anyone would read a buildguide like this, and instead of just simply looking over how the build works and how the mechanics function and go "Naah it's not for me", they are seemingly so offended that anyone had the audacity to try something new that they will literally sit and lie about the mechanics of the build work in order to make it seem unviable.

To see what I mean, please see this post that was made earlier in the thread where a poster claimed the key item for the build, Manual Crowed Pummeler does not work as the Spelladin build claim it does.

MCP Reduce the damage done from SoR in live Beta.

Here's the Manual Crowd Pummeler on the Beta:
streamable.com/bi3xa

So as we see in the video. Blooderduki just straight up lied and told everyone here the key item for the build had been tested on the Beta and found to not work, when that is in no way the case. I just find it incredibly frustrating that people would behave this way, and I cannot for the life of me figure out how there can be such deep HATRED for Retribution that people will get themselves to claim absolutely anything will that will make the spec seem like its not performing as advertised when they know damn well they dont know.

So yeah. If you want to make fun of Retribution as a spec I am perfectly okey with it. But please. Have enough self respect to at least bother looking at the underlying data that supports the build instead of flat out insisting the spec works without even attempting to understand anything about it.

[Charge me Doctor]

So yeah. If you want to make fun of Retribution as a spec I am perfectly okey with it. But please. Have enough self respect to at least bother looking at the underlying data that supports the build instead of flat out insisting the spec works without even attempting to understand anything about it.

You still haven't posted any numbers tho.
Especially most important numbers - cost in gold and time spent per attempt.
And knowing for a fact that we don't know real numbers on wow classic - it's all just speculation. This may work on a private server, but it definitely didn't worked in vanilla. Many paladins (and shamans, and druids) had this thought in their minds and all of them got disappointed with viability of this idea outside of pvp. Being butthurt about players not liking your idea is just childish.
You also have not convinced anyone in why a certain raid should deal with such a paladin, instead of having... you know... a proper healer and fill that spot with a proper DPS.

In the end - you do you, but don't expect people just to jump on your bandwagon for no other reason than that you say so.

[NihilSustinet]

Can't figure out if you're serious or just a convincing troll. I still think the latter.

Go look at urban dictionary. Then use common sense. When someone says "what is the keystone meta this season" you think they're asking about your knowledge of the dungeon monsters outside the game - like maybe you hang out with them after work? The throw-away NecroLars account's definition of the term would render the question entirely nonsensical.

I took Greek in college so I know what meta means, but the prefix is nearly completely unrelated to how the term is used in MMO's today. Q. What is the tank meta for BFA season 2 keystones? A. Warrior. That has nothing to do with understanding something outside the game or going beyond something or any of that nonsense. It is a simple statement that warrior gives you the easiest path forward based on math and observation. If you know what "meta" means it's an easy question to understand and answer. If you're NecroLars it's something else.

its funny seeing someone talk this much while being 100% wrong. the posts you are quoting are correct.

[Kithelle]

But... but... but... I was told talent trees didn't lead to different builds...

They don't if you want to be effective....but if sucking for the sake of being different floats your boat, then yeah you can make a "different" build

[Ihsatakar]

Healing power increase only your heal.
Spell power (which is spell and heal in vanilla) increase both.

Everything in vanilla is +spell damage, not +spell power

[Yat-Yas]

Everything in vanilla is +spell damage, not +spell power

Its "X spell damage and healing" and then there is "X healing". The + healing gear had a higher increase to healing than caster dps gear to prevent healers and dps needing the same gear.

Also the shockadin concept isn't new and was generally a gimmick that was fun to play with in PvP but not viable in raids. I played a Paladin all throughout vanilla and have tried similar builds.