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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Leetbeartank View Post
    I think you're the one that fathom that (almost) everyone else in this thread plays this game to try to realize their full potential and improve upon their own mistakes. Logs are the #1 most useful tool available for that. Your mindset is the mindset that led to LFR where where everything is made up and the points don't matter.
    LFR was actually tough in MoP, I liked that rendition because the rewards were also scaled to that difficulty. LFR basically played like Normal now, back in MoP. It's the only reason raids exist in the scale they are today and people refuse to accept that.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by urasim View Post
    I don't play a mage.

    Keep assuming things, though. It makes you look really good...



    Worked up? Just calling out bad players like you. Why else would you be against a method of looking in depth at what everyone does? Because you're not good and don't want to be called out for bad play. Which it seems like you're going to be called out A LOT!
    Because it's generally not needed. Damage Meters do the job. Decide why you wiped. Look at deaths and how they died. Look at damage. Look at damage to priority adds. Are they focusing/cleaving/aoeing? Determine problem and get an explanation. Ask them what they are going to do to fix it. Not satisfied? Explain what you want. Fix the problem right there. Pull again. Wipe again cause you fucked up. Disband guild...

    In all seriousness my guild don't do this anymore cause we would rather have a lol instead of getting too upset. I admit I have had strokes in the past because of the stupid shit we have done. I've even had to tell the dps what the first 20 buttons they are to press in a fight before. 'NO NO NO NO. 2 1 1 2 3 1 2 1 switch 2..... AND THATS HOW THE ADDS DIE WHILE AVOIDING THE ENRAGE'.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    LFR was actually tough in MoP, I liked that rendition because the rewards were also scaled to that difficulty. LFR basically played like Normal now, back in MoP. It's the only reason raids exist in the scale they are today and people refuse to accept that.
    Remember spine on lfr? That was the best. Everytime:
    FartooseriousforLFR: ok guys, we need to dps just one tentacle...
    Some Random: shutup nerd. Just AOE it all
    Me: *flasks, eats food and preparing prepot* 'fuck yeah, let's do it'
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by taishar68 View Post
    I guess I don’t see the point; I fail to see the type of guild that will find this useful:

    Extremely competent world first types will roll through these raids without breaking a sweat.

    Good guilds that are striving for ASAP clears will find gear a much bigger roadblock than whether specific raiders do X damage or handle Y mechanic.

    Average guilds who are pushing progression will have a harder time fielding 40 people, and thus can’t afford to nitpick about performance. They’ll be lucky to get 40 in the door.

    Below average and/or casual guilds won’t be helped or need the logs, and will have similar issues as the average and good guilds, gear and attendance will be bigger problems.

    Of course this is just my opinion, but I think people bringing that mindset into Classic are playing the wrong game. It really is about the journey, not the destination. But to each their own, and good luck on the way.
    There is more than to logs than who is doing good or bad but the ability to look at your performance compared to a known good player and see what they did vs what you did is a huge tool for self improvement.

  4. #64
    i guess keep it classic means they need Warcraft logs lol

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by taishar68 View Post
    I guess I don’t see the point; I fail to see the type of guild that will find this useful:

    Extremely competent world first types will roll through these raids without breaking a sweat.

    Good guilds that are striving for ASAP clears will find gear a much bigger roadblock than whether specific raiders do X damage or handle Y mechanic.

    Average guilds who are pushing progression will have a harder time fielding 40 people, and thus can’t afford to nitpick about performance. They’ll be lucky to get 40 in the door.

    Below average and/or casual guilds won’t be helped or need the logs, and will have similar issues as the average and good guilds, gear and attendance will be bigger problems.

    Of course this is just my opinion, but I think people bringing that mindset into Classic are playing the wrong game. It really is about the journey, not the destination. But to each their own, and good luck on the way.
    It's pretty simple. People like to know how they are doing in comparison to others. That's literally it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Greevir View Post
    Like someone said earlier, just a dick measuring tool. Just like in retail. Can't wait for all these "Vanilla purists" to throw so many addons on the game where it basically plays like retail.
    I had a ton of addons in vanilla just like I do now. Addons in vanilla were actually more powerful because some limitations weren't applied until years later.

  6. #66
    Logs are a necessary evil. Over all not as necessary as they are in a game like BFA where the random is all over the place and you need a pretty detailed breakdown sometimes to know what is actually happening. In Classic a lot of it will just be a DPS meter and who stood in the fire counter. Helpful? Sure. Something most damage meters in game wouldn't just tell you instantly almost all of the time? Of course. Just a lot less details to compute.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Because it's generally not needed. Damage Meters do the job. Decide why you wiped. Look at deaths and how they died. Look at damage. Look at damage to priority adds. Are they focusing/cleaving/aoeing? Determine problem and get an explanation. Ask them what they are going to do to fix it. Not satisfied? Explain what you want. Fix the problem right there. Pull again. Wipe again cause you fucked up. Disband guild...

    In all seriousness my guild don't do this anymore cause we would rather have a lol instead of getting too upset. I admit I have had strokes in the past because of the stupid shit we have done. I've even had to tell the dps what the first 20 buttons they are to press in a fight before. 'NO NO NO NO. 2 1 1 2 3 1 2 1 switch 2..... AND THATS HOW THE ADDS DIE WHILE AVOIDING THE ENRAGE'.
    Like I said previously. Logs show a lot more than what damage meters show. Thus, your points are completely invalid, and your anecdotes don't help your case.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    liberalism is a right wing idealogy.

  8. #68
    logs are just another way to feel good and upload/analyse yourself. Min maxers, parselords and competitive people will love classic WCL.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by taishar68 View Post
    I guess I don’t see the point; I fail to see the type of guild that will find this useful:

    Extremely competent world first types will roll through these raids without breaking a sweat.

    Good guilds that are striving for ASAP clears will find gear a much bigger roadblock than whether specific raiders do X damage or handle Y mechanic.

    Average guilds who are pushing progression will have a harder time fielding 40 people, and thus can’t afford to nitpick about performance. They’ll be lucky to get 40 in the door.

    Below average and/or casual guilds won’t be helped or need the logs, and will have similar issues as the average and good guilds, gear and attendance will be bigger problems.

    Of course this is just my opinion, but I think people bringing that mindset into Classic are playing the wrong game. It really is about the journey, not the destination. But to each their own, and good luck on the way.
    I don't understand what you don't understand.

    How would you know if a change in your build or your gear was good or bad?
    How would you know if the new person you brought into the raid is pulling his/her weight or dead weight?
    How would you know who is slacking off because they are more interested in their Netflix show than the good of the other 39 raiders?
    etc
    etc

    If you don't care about these questions that is fine but the conversation does not involve you and you are highly unlikely ever to do relevant raid content. Plenty of people will come along and do raids they outgear and just bee-bop along without trying to be good and they don't need to be concerned about performance. They can enjoy the journey, whatever that is.

    You say a lot of things that make it sound like you never raided in Vanilla (or since). Not sure why it matters to you if people who will raid don't want to waste their time.

  10. #70
    Brewmaster taishar68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    I don't understand what you don't understand.

    How would you know if a change in your build or your gear was good or bad?
    How would you know if the new person you brought into the raid is pulling his/her weight or dead weight?
    How would you know who is slacking off because they are more interested in their Netflix show than the good of the other 39 raiders?
    etc
    etc

    If you don't care about these questions that is fine but the conversation does not involve you and you are highly unlikely ever to do relevant raid content. Plenty of people will come along and do raids they outgear and just bee-bop along without trying to be good and they don't need to be concerned about performance. They can enjoy the journey, whatever that is.

    You say a lot of things that make it sound like you never raided in Vanilla (or since). Not sure why it matters to you if people who will raid don't want to waste their time.
    You know, I already went through someone making assumptions about me based on my opinion here, and I don't really get it...is it not in the realm of imagination that someone might know about a subject but see a different side to it? Maybe I didn't state my opinion clearly enough.

    I am not suggesting that an individual shouldn't use logs, or that is stupid, or that I do not understand their function. I said I don't see the point for using them in Classic, since the raids are easier, strats are very well known, and that gear plays a larger role than skill in defeating the bosses, and, that given the absence of complexity in the raids themselves and in player rotations (to be fair, warriors were probably a lot busier then), the value of using logs to analyze performance does not seem to be crucial to me. You can look at my armory, Ulthrakk, US-Illidan, and see my raiding history; I'm no Mythic raider, but I have completed raids all the way back to BC, when they were relevant. I stopped raiding in BfA for RL reasons.

    Lastly, it is nearly a consensus opinion on these forums that the Classic raids, due to player knowledge and, to a lesser extent, the conditions of the 1.12 patch, that raids will be faceroll, and guilds will be clearing them almost as soon as they can get into them. When I do see someone suggest it might take a little longer, it is never because complexity is an issue, it is always a question of gear and having people stay focused and committed. So I ask; if the raids are so easy, why the need for a level of scrutiny that logs provide, which are of great value to a Heroic/Mythic raider on retail?
    If you can't be in athletics, be an athletic supporter.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by taishar68 View Post
    You know, I already went through someone making assumptions about me based on my opinion here, and I don't really get it...is it not in the realm of imagination that someone might know about a subject but see a different side to it? Maybe I didn't state my opinion clearly enough.

    I am not suggesting that an individual shouldn't use logs, or that is stupid, or that I do not understand their function. I said I don't see the point for using them in Classic, since the raids are easier, strats are very well known, and that gear plays a larger role than skill in defeating the bosses, and, that given the absence of complexity in the raids themselves and in player rotations (to be fair, warriors were probably a lot busier then), the value of using logs to analyze performance does not seem to be crucial to me. You can look at my armory, Ulthrakk, US-Illidan, and see my raiding history; I'm no Mythic raider, but I have completed raids all the way back to BC, when they were relevant. I stopped raiding in BfA for RL reasons.

    Lastly, it is nearly a consensus opinion on these forums that the Classic raids, due to player knowledge and, to a lesser extent, the conditions of the 1.12 patch, that raids will be faceroll, and guilds will be clearing them almost as soon as they can get into them. When I do see someone suggest it might take a little longer, it is never because complexity is an issue, it is always a question of gear and having people stay focused and committed. So I ask; if the raids are so easy, why the need for a level of scrutiny that logs provide, which are of great value to a Heroic/Mythic raider on retail?
    Have you ever lead a raid? If you have you would know the answers to your own questions. Just go back and review my post that you quoted. How would you answer the questions I gave as examples? And if you say that you don't care about those questions I would say you've never been involved in leading a raid and you have never cared whether or not the raid you we in was efficient or not.

    There is this thing called human nature. In general, people put in the least amount of effort to get what they want. The average person is a selfish lazy fuck. Logs (or even damage meters) add some accountability so that the bar gets bumped up a bit ... the bare minimum required is naturally increased by the transparency. Until you really outgear content, raids still take time to complete, even on farm. Why would you want to spend more time to clear the raid by carrying lazy fucks instead of less time by ensuring you have a solid crew that actually cares that the raid is efficient? I don't understand. Why would you not want to know who is struggling to be able to offer them some help in case they're not just a lazy fuck? What is so great about ignorance? I don't get it.

    You are right that modern raiding is significantly more complex. But outside the upper echelons of raiding, logs still have more to do with figuring out who gives a fuck and who doesn't than anything else. Reducing or removing the complexity of encounters doesn't change that at all.

  12. #72
    Brewmaster taishar68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    Have you ever lead a raid? If you have you would know the answers to your own questions. Just go back and review my post that you quoted. How would you answer the questions I gave as examples? And if you say that you don't care about those questions I would say you've never been involved in leading a raid and you have never cared whether or not the raid you we in was efficient or not.

    There is this thing called human nature. In general, people put in the least amount of effort to get what they want. The average person is a selfish lazy fuck. Logs (or even damage meters) add some accountability so that the bar gets bumped up a bit ... the bare minimum required is naturally increased by the transparency. Until you really outgear content, raids still take time to complete, even on farm. Why would you want to spend more time to clear the raid by carrying lazy fucks instead of less time by ensuring you have a solid crew that actually cares that the raid is efficient? I don't understand. Why would you not want to know who is struggling to be able to offer them some help in case they're not just a lazy fuck? What is so great about ignorance? I don't get it.

    You are right that modern raiding is significantly more complex. But outside the upper echelons of raiding, logs still have more to do with figuring out who gives a fuck and who doesn't than anything else. Reducing or removing the complexity of encounters doesn't change that at all.
    I get what you're saying. And yes, logs can tell you what you are describing, I guess I saw the raids as less reliant on the need for that scrutiny, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm not saying to be willfully ignorant, I'm saying, I think if the raids are really push over easy, you won't need the logs to tell you what is obvious. Again, I could be wrong.

    I never led raids, but I did co-lead my guild back in LK/Cata...and yes, raid leading was a challenge, akin to herding cats sometimes. I recall we started using logs at some point, but I can't recall when. I always made sure I was the best I could be in raids, even when it wasn't very good. As to whether I cared if a raid was efficient or not...that is a fair question; I don't think I really thought about it much, I was always determined to do my best and when we were successful, I didn't really worry about shaving minutes off of our time...I guess that made us a casual guild.

    In the end I didn't think this opinion would strike such a nerve, and I certainly wasn't trying to malign anyone who uses logs, or seem ignorant in the process, although apparently that is what happened. I appreciate the civil response though, thanks
    If you can't be in athletics, be an athletic supporter.

  13. #73
    Sorry for the necropost, but does anyone know, is there an option to check for world buffs and consumes like onyxia head or mongoose elixir in logs?

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssviolett View Post
    Sorry for the necropost, but does anyone know, is there an option to check for world buffs and consumes like onyxia head or mongoose elixir in logs?
    Click a log and then click the "buffs" tab > scroll down to find what you want.
    <Multipass>

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by ssviolett View Post
    Sorry for the necropost, but does anyone know, is there an option to check for world buffs and consumes like onyxia head or mongoose elixir in logs?
    Apology not accepted. I just read the thread thinking "what? But WCL already supports classic" and even replied to someone who I'd already replied to 4 months ago.
    You could have googled this, or asked on WCL forum, or even just PLAYED AROUND with a report to see what it's capable of. You didn't need to necro just to ask this stupid question.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    Apology not accepted. I just read the thread thinking "what? But WCL already supports classic" and even replied to someone who I'd already replied to 4 months ago.
    You could have googled this, or asked on WCL forum, or even just PLAYED AROUND with a report to see what it's capable of. You didn't need to necro just to ask this stupid question.
    jesus.....
    ~steppin large and laughin easy~

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by SirReal View Post
    jesus.....
    No, the only 'Jesus' is necroing a post unnecessarily to ASK if WCL supports classic when one can just go onto warcraftlogs.com and see the shiny CLASSIC button on the menu bar...

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    LFR was actually tough in MoP, I liked that rendition because the rewards were also scaled to that difficulty. LFR basically played like Normal now, back in MoP. It's the only reason raids exist in the scale they are today and people refuse to accept that.
    Those were flexible and were easy.

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