Blizzard killed off Mythic+ on PTR

[LDancer]

M+ should never have dropped any gear to begin with.
M+ should have normalized all gear, to a specific iLevel. Only then can you meassure people's skill

Completely Agree!
This is why CMS were so great, the normalising of gear put everyone on par and was a pure skill test. These M+ runners bitching about loot go to prove that it was a broken system heavily abused and invalidates all their arguments saying they run for the challenge.

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I don't know why +10 is the limit for gear. They could make it so +15 or +20 gives Mythic raid level gear in the weekly chest. That way raiders are still getting more loot if they're pushing and clearing Mythic and people pushing M+ still get a reward for pushing keys to high levels, but they'd only get 1 piece of Mythic level gear a week. So it would still take weeks of farming to get a full set of mythic raid level gear from M+ (likely months before you got one piece for each slot) at which point it'd be faster to just do the raids. That way people still have motivation to push keys, raiders still get top level gear faster and people who don't enjoy raiding still have some high skill content to aim for.

Why do we have to continue to cater for the Mythic raiders? Theyre the smallest population of subscribers and yet seem to garner the bulk of blizzards time. You want to keep subs up, cater to the broader community and not the elite 5%

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the issue with no gear is that people won't run it - if you look back to Challenge Modes in MOP and WOD - people really only ran them for the titles, mounts, or transmog.. and when they did run them they were usually carries..

So to be straightforward: M+ became awesome when the gearing was a factor, the carrot on a stick.. take that away brother - M+ would LITERALLY be completely dead

But you’re missing the point that CMS also gave the casual alt collector a reason to level and gear a character for the mog/title etc... you’d think with allied races being their new baby, blizzard would incentivise alt collectors with something like CMS or a mage tower... as it stands the rubbish mogs you get for spending hours levelling AGAIN are not worth the time invested.

[Relapses]

Ok that makes more sense probably just miscommunication on OP’s part then.

This has been clarified more than a dozen times throughout the thread. That said, the discussion being had seems to have less to do with the OP's misconception and more to do with the overall impact of M+ as an alternative gearing system.

[ID811717]

Should I go ahead and bother telling you that destiny 2 crushes wow bfa on all streaming metrics? Wow streaming is dead outside of classic. Take classic away and bfa falls out of the top 100

WoW Classic Beta is up since May 15th. WoW was the 10th most watched game in Q1/2019 (January-March 2019). Do you have evidence that WoW dropped from top 10 down below top 100 between March 31st and May 15th?

It IS a myth. You realize that this is easily viewable data yes? If you look at the players with the highest ilevels they all raid Mythic. Mythic raids give better gear, period. Mythic raiders are better geared, period.

Where can I view this data? Raider.io has no way to see top ilvl characters. WoWProgress only works for those that bother to manually queue their characters for update. My ilvl 420 equipped M+ only character shows as having ilvl 401 on WoWProgress. It also does not show chars from Chinese/Korean realms.

Now if you had some proof that contradicted the readily available data about player ilevel, that would be different.

Ok, let's look at WoWProgress anyway, that's the best I have:


Top 1 char: 8/9M with 56 kills in mythic BoD (I check raider.io for the raiding stats, as I do not trust WoWProgress).
Top 2 char: 9/9M with 71 kills.
Top 3 char: 9/9M with 72 kills.
Top 4 char: 9/9M with 130 kills.
Top 5 char: 4/9M with 44 kills.
Top 6 char: 9/9M with 106 kills.
Top 7 char: 6/9M with 63 kills.
Top 8 char: 9/9M with 140 kills.
Top 9 char: 9/9M with 65 kills.
Top 10 char: 8/9M with 74 kills.

Ok, your claim seems to be true. I am actually surprised there is not a single 1/9M or 2/9M char in that top 10, just by the virtue of doing very high M+ keys for 12h every day.

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If you don't do Mythic Raiding why do you need Mythic Raid quality gear?

So that M+ only characters can compete for Rank 1 keys without having to raid mythic.

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Even more cancer from Blizz devs coming, rejoice!

What's wrong with this?

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That's really an issue with how gearing is handled in raiding that should have its own solution (like badges / raid currency vendors), rather than making players dip into a different style of endgame progression to supplement their gearing.


IMO, every endgame progression path (Raid / Mythic+ / PVP) should be entirely self-sufficient and self-contained. If you want your endgame to be Mythic+, doing that content should provide you with all the gear you need to complete that content at your chosen difficulty level, and the gear you get should have stats and traits that are specialized for that type of content.

Being able to switch progression paths, progress to a higher difficulty tier, or lightly supplement your ilvl is one thing, but you should never need to dip your toe into a different progression path in order to progress in your chosen path.


Goes the other way, too. If the gear you're getting from high level Mythic+ isn't sufficient to complete Mythic+, that needs to be addressed within the Mythic+ system, not by making people dip into Mythic Raiding to get Mythic Raid quality gear.

That would be the best way to design the gearing system. But I guess it would make everything too complicated for casual players, so Blizzard does not want to do this.

[trapmaster]

What to buy... challenge mode back. Mythic+ kind of defeat raid purpose to gear up. It's all world of mythicraft+

[Dakara]

<snip>

Top 1 char: 8/9M with 56 kills in mythic BoD (I check raider.io for the raiding stats, as I do not trust WoWProgress).
Top 2 char: 9/9M with 71 kills.
Top 3 char: 9/9M with 72 kills.
Top 4 char: 9/9M with 130 kills.
Top 5 char: 4/9M with 44 kills.
Top 6 char: 9/9M with 106 kills.
Top 7 char: 6/9M with 63 kills.
Top 8 char: 9/9M with 140 kills.
Top 9 char: 9/9M with 65 kills.
Top 10 char: 8/9M with 74 kills.

Ok, your claim seems to be true. I am actually surprised there is not a single 1/9M or 2/9M char in that top 10, just by the virtue of doing very high M+ keys for 12h every day.

Ilvl only shows so much.
If we were to inspect those players, I wonder where most of their gear came from?

Stats can be difficult to interpret. It's logical that the players with highest ilvls do both M+ and Mythic Raids. Generally, the players at the top anything are quite devoted and spend a lot more time in-game than the rest of us. Most Mythic Guilds would likely have a requirement for their raiders to complete a +10 key every week. Certainly during progression.

A more interesting comparison would be to compare the Top 10 Ilvl players who are 0/9M Vs The Top 10 9/9M with terrible .io scores.
I bet you'll find plenty of ~420+ Ilvl players with 0/9M, but how many 9/9M players will you find with no (or very few) +10 M+ runs?

[SkagenRora]

Yes

(ily friends but lets b real here)

Just time time start hopeing for those titanforged then.

[Otimus]

WoW isn't a rpg and hasn't been for a while now. You either raid, pvp at a high level or afk.

Exactly :'(

(That being said, I kind of disagree, people just want to turn it into an arcade game. Blizzard, especially.)

[HuxNeva]

Even more cancer from Blizz devs coming, rejoice!

Don't see how any of these sound outlandish or unreasonable.

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"Back in my day" those players didn't exist. The current game has created and/or attracted them. Farming a raid once it was cleared to gear up for the next Tier was a normal part raiding.

The boring part, yes. M+ thankfully offers an alternative high level endgame, and unlike raiding, has a continuously scaling open ended challenge. I like both. Besides, once you are done with progression in a guild, where unlike the cancer of pugs, loot is freely shared, you will be more than enough geared for the next raid. All the rest is just minor cherries on top, and near irrelevant.

[Dakara]

The boring part, yes. M+ thankfully offers an alternative high level endgame, and unlike raiding, has a continuously scaling open ended challenge. I like both. Besides, once you are done with progression in a guild, where unlike the cancer of pugs, loot is freely shared, you will be more than enough geared for the next raid. All the rest is just minor cherries on top, and near irrelevant.

Personal opinion I suppose. I find farming the same dungeons for an entire expansion, to get the same item drops at the "new season ILVL Cap" far more tedious than any raid farm was.

But as another poster said, the rewards for M+ shouldn't stop at +10. The biggest issue in WOW right now is the Effort Vs Reward curves. A +10 is ridiculously easy for any half competent group.

If, for example, you were required to complete a +15 or even a +20 for the equivalent of Mythic Raid loot, then perhaps it would be an "Alternative high level endgame" but right now, it is the High level endgame. Raid for the Achievements run M+ for the Gear. That's the current endgame.

[Jowany]

Higher keys are more difficult than raid content. It makes sense that higher difficulty levels yield higher reward.

Nope. M+ are easy, they have easy mechanics, with higher key it had only moře hp and more dmg. But mechanics are still the same. On dungeon bosses you watching maybe 3 abilites, on myth raid more. Raids has weekly ID, m+ you can spam.

[HuxNeva]

Personal opinion I suppose. I find farming the same dungeons for an entire expansion, to get the same item drops at the "new season ILVL Cap" far more tedious than any raid farm was.

But as another poster said, the rewards for M+ shouldn't stop at +10. The biggest issue in WOW right now is the Effort Vs Reward curves. A +10 is ridiculously easy for any half competent group.

If, for example, you were required to complete a +15 or even a +20 for the equivalent of Mythic Raid loot, then perhaps it would be an "Alternative high level endgame" but right now, it is the High level endgame. Raid for the Achievements run M+ for the Gear. That's the current endgame.

I assume when the new season hits, the M+ levels will be readjusted as always, meaning that S3's +10 will be scaled up to be S2's +15. Just like with raids where early progression might take effort, but later the same encounter 'on farm' is piss easy.

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Nope. M+ are easy, they have easy mechanics, with higher key it had only moře hp and more dmg. But mechanics are still the same. On dungeon bosses you watching maybe 3 abilites, on myth raid more. Raids has weekly ID, m+ you can spam.

Since M+ have open ended difficulty while Raid's difficulty is capped at Mythic, the former will by design always in the end be more challenging. Does it matter? Two different things. And fwiw, I've seen plenty of successful HC raiders struggle with 'chest level' M+ keys.

[Dawon]

Finally, I am so burned out on those m+ that it will be a relief to not "having" to do them every week... now I can just raid/pvp and have even more freetime for other stuff/games!

[Big Thanks]

Wait, is this true?

Blizzard is nerfing mythic+ rewards?

Anyone got a link to the nerfed reward system?

[Biomega]

Nope. M+ are easy, they have easy mechanics, with higher key it had only moře hp and more dmg. But mechanics are still the same. On dungeon bosses you watching maybe 3 abilites, on myth raid more. Raids has weekly ID, m+ you can spam.

It's hard to say what's truly more difficult. The way raids work and the way dungeons work is just very different. In M+ you have less abilities to watch, that's true - but you also are much more involved in them. Because there's only 5 people, you're much more likely to actually have to deal with an ability - and because there's only 1 tank and 1 healer, there's also far less margin for other people to cover for you. That's why something like the Spit Gold change is so relevant, as it used to be an absolute nightmare for a single healer to deal with. In a raid, you would have multiple healers on that, making it far less stressful. The smaller group size also makes numerical tuning more relevant. Things tend to hit a lot harder in high M+ keys, to the point where some mechanics become almost literally impossible to deal with on very high keys (e.g. Tantrum on 2nd boss in Underrot). Raid tuning doesn't work like that.

All in all, high M+ and mythic raiding are both comparable and incomparable. They have many similarities, but also many differences. And that's fine. I think it's great to have content tuned for tightly-knit, small groups, and content for thoroughly organized large groups. Both are challenging in their own way, and attract their own audiences. Some people prefer one over the other, some people like either. That's a GOOD thing.

I hope that Blizz scales the reward structure accordingly. Personally, I wouldn't mind going to a +15 requirement for top ilvl on weekly chest, but I guess that would only increase the number of carry sellers even more. I find the current system of heroic raid < m+10 < mythic raid quite functional, and I see little reason to change it. I'm still hoping the current PTR numbers are just for testing ilvls before mythic Palace, and that the rewards scale up once the mythic raid opens.

[Barzotti]

Ilvl only shows so much.
If we were to inspect those players, I wonder where most of their gear came from?

So, out of 14 slots available and for the top 5:

1st char: 7 M+ items (Kathdruid)
2nd: 2 M+ items (Rhino)
3rd: 10 M+ items (Deswind)
4th: 4 M+ items (Decoil)
5th: 4M+ items (Sting).

For 70 slots available, we have 1 alchi trinket, 27 M+ pieces, 42 raiding pieces. Most of their gear comes from raiding. If you object "but they have so few M+ items because they barely play M+!" Let's look at their r.io score:

1st char: 3.5k r.io
2nd char: 1,9k r.io
3rd char: 3,3k r.io
4th char: 1,6k r.io
5th char: 1,5k r.io.

For the most geared chars in the world, their gear comes from raiding mainly. And they do run M+.

[styil]

So M +10 will now drop 420, yet Nazjatar will continue to throw out 425 Benthic gear? What are the people in charge of the rewards structure doing to this game?

[crusadernero]

Imagine if they made old raids more relevant. Just boost ilevel gained from Uldir and soon BoD. Make it easy enough to pug, have it as a catch up mechanic.

The worst part about all of m+ is that we farm the same dungeons over and over for the same items with higher ilevel.

They should make "older" raids more relevant. Maybe off topic, but wanted to add that here.

[Gatts]

If you don't do Mythic Raiding why do you need Mythic Raid quality gear?

This only affects people who want to use Mythic+ to gear for Mythic Raiding.

M+ should never have dropped any gear to begin with.
M+ should have normalized all gear, to a specific iLevel. Only then can you meassure people's skill

Isn't this a good change? Gear should be tiered by content. Raid gear should be BiS and ONLY available in raids. Mythic+ is some competitive "game mode" and shouldn't even GIVE gear. It's to compete against others... so when you zone in you should get an exact set of gear to keep it level.

as I said before getting all the gear and BiS from one source will kill the game

I know that M+10 is over-rewarding, in that case, they need to increase M+ cap to +20 or +15 and you don't get weekly chest unless you complete it in time.

[Dakara]

I assume when the new season hits, the M+ levels will be readjusted as always, meaning that S3's +10 will be scaled up to be S2's +15. Just like with raids where early progression might take effort, but later the same encounter 'on farm' is piss easy.

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Since M+ have open ended difficulty while Raid's difficulty is capped at Mythic, the former will by design always in the end be more challenging. Does it matter? Two different things. And fwiw, I've seen plenty of successful HC raiders struggle with 'chest level' M+ keys.

Even now, Mythic Raids are not piss easy to farm tho, certainly not beyond the first few bosses. Even Method (last time I checked) haven't got more than a few kills on end bosses. I honestly believe +10, regardless of seasonal adjustment, is simply far too easy for Mythic Level loot. Heroic? Yes. But Mythic should be around a +15 Key IMHO.

M+ might have open ended difficulty, but the loot (which most players cares about) caps out at +10.

So, out of 14 slots available and for the top 5:

1st char: 7 M+ items (Kathdruid)
2nd: 2 M+ items (Rhino)
3rd: 10 M+ items (Deswind)
4th: 4 M+ items (Decoil)
5th: 4M+ items (Sting).

For 70 slots available, we have 1 alchi trinket, 27 M+ pieces, 42 raiding pieces. Most of their gear comes from raiding. If you object "but they have so few M+ items because they barely play M+!" Let's look at their r.io score:

1st char: 3.5k r.io
2nd char: 1,9k r.io
3rd char: 3,3k r.io
4th char: 1,6k r.io
5th char: 1,5k r.io.

For the most geared chars in the world, their gear comes from raiding mainly. And they do run M+.

That's kind of my point. The top players do both, that's always been the case and always will be, and they have a healthy proportion of Raid gear because they can actually clear the raid... or are lucky to have decent gear available on the first few bosses.

But lets look at Stíng (5th). 4/9M, 2 kills on Opulence so has been farming the first 3 bosses. 2 of their Raid items are also BoE's.
Stíng's Item level is 0.94 less than KathDruid, who's actually only 8/9M themselves and has ~50 Mythic boss kills to 517 +10's.

Again, this is effectively my point. When you look at the Top 10, they all have good .io scores, but not all of them are 9/9M, most (all?) are still 0/2M.

The Highest Ilvl is currently 424.25 while number 1000 is 420.19 so we're talking about 4 ilvls difference here. In that top 1000 you'll find plenty of players who are not 9/9M but I doubt you'd find very many with a crap .io score. I haven't found any, but didn't exactly check them all!

If you can kill enough bosses in Mythic, you'll get access to their loot and it can be easier to target certain slots, especially with loot trading. If you can't kill a raid boss on Mythic, you'll never see their loot drop. But in M+, just keep spamming and hope for the best in your weekly chest as all loot is on the table.

As an example, there are two ranged weapons in BoD. One from Conclave (boss 5) and one from Mechatorque (Boss 7). If Sting (above) were a Hunter, they would need to rely on a Heroic TF to get a raid weapon. Luckily as a BrM, Grong drops a staff. However, as a Hunter, M+ gives them access to weapons (admittedly via RNG) they can't achieve in a raid due to their progression. Just keep spamming those +10's!

[Super Kami Dende]

I understand that you are sad that gravy train went off the track but getting mythic raid equivalent gear from 5 man content is pretty stupid. Dungeon or WQ rewards should never be even close to raid rewards.

Maybe blizz is finally going back to game design where effort you put in is directly proportional to reward you get.

>implying anything but the last couple of bosses in Mythic are harder than M+ content that gives relative rewards.

OH you.