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  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    No. Just standard start of the season stuff.
    But did we have the same "Nerf" on previous PTR?

    Because the issue here is that it could be a " pre raid " item lvl lock like always.
    But then I don't see the reasoning of putting it on the PTR without any clarification.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by Deaged View Post
    Probably a lot more than that. 36800 unique characters have done a +20, so at minimum a +20 is just barely less difficult than getting CE. Scale all the way to +20 and make it drop mythic level raid gear, and raiders might stop crying, that would be a start.
    This is such faulty analysis.

    Most people do not give a shit about +20, or anything beyond 10 because it doesn't award anything but AP / Titan Residuum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deaged View Post
    Why would getting rid of titanforging and warforging in mythic plus be bad?
    Did you read what i wrote?

    Unless you want to somehow stretch the entire Item level gap of an entire season from 0+ to +20 without any major breakpoints, which would just inflate Ilvl even further, that doesn't work.

    After all, if we use the current numbers you have to somehow fit the current 15 Ilvl gap between Heroic (400) and Mythic (415) into 10 freaking Keystone levels.

    People just reach a point where they stop bothering to enter a higher difficulty and farm that what they're comfortable with, at which point they will then done within weeks, because M+ pretty much throws loot at people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deaged View Post
    Not only that, but the time required to farm +20s is much more than what it takes to kill mythic raid bosses each week.
    Once you got all bosses on farm, sure.
    Now take into account how much time people put into clearing mythic as a whole, now that story looks totally different.

    I got like over 300 wipes on Mythic Jaina, guess i could also clear a handful of M+20 intime with that amount of time, right?

    The massive advantage of M+ is that the strategies aren't even changing that massively between seasons, because the Content stays overall the same, i don't have to re learn fights from scratch.

    My knowledge about the Jaina fight will be worth shit on Azshara, my knowledge about Atal'dazar will still be useful once Season 3 hits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deaged View Post
    I also don't think untimed runs should give gear... but that's another issue.
    Legitimitate thought but it would turn M+ into a complete cesspool for anyone but the most organized groups.
    After all, once you hit the high keys, a single wipe leads very often to key depletion, which would instantly mean group dissolve.

    But even then, imagine wiping because of some lag / dc right before the final boss =>30-40 minutes into the trash bin, alongside the key itself.

    Imagine how M+ would look like if depleted keys stopped giving loot altogether, the same that happens in any group that aims for Keystone Master:
    The Group instantly dissolves.

    On top of that, it also puts a rather heavy focus onto one of the clear weaknesses of M+: Class balance.

    Once you enter high keystone levels, you really start to feel the difference between the [current FotM Tank / Healer / Dps] and the less desirable ones.
    You basically magnify one of the most glaring issues of the system, that the classes are not balanced for this type of content, let alone that they could be balanced.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-06-11 at 03:16 PM.

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    My attitude is apt for the discussion being had.

    I am well aware, but let's look at how it's marketed and branded (genre) first and foremost. Is it as an FPSRPG, or as an FPS? There you go.
    I'm confused. Are folks here playing the game in first person? I guess if you play a hunter in first person then it's an FPS. Or perhaps SoB when you are in the cannon and it has you look down the barrel. Other than that I'm def. playing a third person view game.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Maudib View Post
    There should only EVER be one source for gear. It's natural progression of an MMO, and encourages content consumption.

    Having two sources split participation and reduces viable content and hurts BOTH activities. Some players choosing M= and do not raid, other people choose raid and do not M+. Having it linearly progress, essentially increases content for everyone without reducing participation in either one.
    if you make it one source how can you encourage players to do M+ with mounts and transmog? some players don't care about it.

    how many players clear 20+ in time? and can heroic raider clear 20+ in time? (20+ need skilled players and some mythic gear to clear it in time, mistakes yield failing)
    they can solve it be dividing BiS Gear to the other contents PvP and M+ and MOBS and raids(most of the BiS in raids) that will make the game more lively than all gear from Raids

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    There should be only one source of gear because... you decided it? More choice is always good. Having more than one interesting source of gear allows players who can't or don't raid for X reasons to keep playing. Your "solution" increases fuck all, it limits the possibilities. We already saw that the "raid or die" mentality had a disastrous effect in WoD. But hey, WoW has a tremendous success nowadays, it's such a good idea to make people quit. Without M+ I would have quit at Antorus release.
    Classic through Cataclysm would like to have a word with you. The game since then has not been able to maintain a playerbase for more than 3-6 months.. declining rapidly afterward, while the prior expansions maintained a fairly healthy population that did not require a bunch of CRZ to fake activity. Why?

    Because you could not choose to SKIP half the content and do one piece of content for max gear. You had to do it all, and therefore did.

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by HuxNeva View Post
    You can't even get the Azerite gear with the raid affixes from M+. As for Azerite from M+ for most you just have to settle for being able to buy a random piece from the vendor once every 3 weeks and hope it rolls good. Non Azerite pieces will be ilvl400 base, with a tiny chance to forge. If you are counting on that, you should also take that into account for your raiding gear (which has a higher forging chance btw) and just call M raid gear ilvl425 (capped). Your M+ gear is basically on par with HC gear, which seems reasonable.
    the weekly chest gives you 410+ which is mythic gear -5ilvl for non-Azerite, you don't want the player to get that easily, also high keys doesn't have good rewards like 20+ so why not making the high ilvl gear rewards for completing it in time.

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Maudib View Post
    Classic through Cataclysm would like to have a word with you. The game since then has not been able to maintain a playerbase for more than 3-6 months.. declining rapidly afterward, while the prior expansions maintained a fairly healthy population that did not require a bunch of CRZ to fake activity. Why?

    Because you could not choose to SKIP half the content and do one piece of content for max gear. You had to do it all, and therefore did.
    My fresh alts in Wrath went straight to farm ICC 5 mans for 232 gear them into ICC.

    Completely skipped Naxx, Ulduar, and ToC.

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatts View Post
    if you make it one source how can you encourage players to do M+ with mounts and transmog? some players don't care about it.

    how many players clear 20+ in time? and can heroic raider clear 20+ in time? (20+ need skilled players and some mythic gear to clear it in time, mistakes yield failing)
    they can solve it be dividing BiS Gear to the other contents PvP and M+ and MOBS and raids(most of the BiS in raids) that will make the game more lively than all gear from Raids
    M+ isn't "additional content", it is the SAME dungeon with additional bells and whistles. If people need to be given Raid gear to do it.. then it's probably not a very good version of the content. It should be optional content like pet battles, PvP, archeology.

    The fact that we have normal, heroic, Mythic and M+ should be a clue that they have over used the same content. Which also is true for LFR, Normal, Heroic and Mythic raiding.

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by Maudib View Post
    M+ isn't "additional content", it is the SAME dungeon with additional bells and whistles. If people need to be given Raid gear to do it.. then it's probably not a very good version of the content. It should be optional content like pet battles, PvP, archeology.

    The fact that we have normal, heroic, Mythic and M+ should be a clue that they have over used the same content. Which also is true for LFR, Normal, Heroic and Mythic raiding.
    M+ is an upgraded version of dungeon content, and that's right high M+ gear should not be obtained by normal or heroic players, they can do lower keys to get gear that equivalent to there level of raiding heroic or normal, mythic raiders shall be able to get a gear that equivalent to mythic gear

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    My fresh alts in Wrath went straight to farm ICC 5 mans for 232 gear them into ICC.

    Completely skipped Naxx, Ulduar, and ToC.
    Now you are talking about catchup mechanisms, which by design, are intended to skip content. Personally don't think they should be used either...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gatts View Post
    M+ is an upgraded version of dungeon content, and that's right high M+ gear should not be obtained by normal or heroic players, they can do lower keys to get gear that equivalent to there level of raiding heroic or normal, mythic raiders shall be able to get a gear that equivalent to mythic gear
    They should not get gear period from an obvious competitive design to begin with that then negates need to raid.

    As it stands.. people don't run normals anymore.. a lot skip Heroics too and jump straight to Mythic after gearing form WQs, LFR, and World Bosses

    So Blizzard has really created a horrible beast haen't they?

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Scourge View Post
    Seriously, just remove fucking titanforging from the game and there are no issues.

    If there was no incentive to run the content I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't bother running anything higher than a 10 if the quality of loot was better in heroic raid and easier to obtain. There are no titles, xmog, anything like that in game for mythic+.

    I've almost exclusively geared from running M+ in season 2 and I'm sitting at 422 ilvl, believe me, titanforging is the problem
    No it isnt , it is actually a very good thing and hope it is here to stay forever

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by Maudib View Post
    Now you are talking about catchup mechanisms, which by design, are intended to skip content. Personally don't think they should be used either...

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    They should not get gear period from an obvious competitive design to begin with that then negates need to raid.

    As it stands.. people don't run normals anymore.. a lot skip Heroics too and jump straight to Mythic after gearing form WQs, LFR, and World Bosses

    So Blizzard has really created a horrible beast haen't they?
    it will not negate the need to raid because must of the players who did 20+ in time they had killed mythic raid bosses or some of them.

    yes, they are, as you said because of it people stop doing normal and heroic raids.
    they literally ruined the game with it.
    Last edited by Gatts; 2019-06-11 at 06:10 PM.

  13. #433
    People saying hc raid is harder than m+10 have either a terribly bad group or no clue what they're doing. M+ on par with hc raiding was fine, M+ on par with normal raiding +5 is a sad joke. Getting hc gear from the weekly mythic cache is even worse. Like that there'd be NO reason at all to do a +10 at any point during the week if you manage to do hc(which any half serious raider managed to CLEAR from week 1/2 in the last ~10 raids.)

    As it currently is, HC raiding and M+ compliment each other, by the former having better trinkets for some classes and azerite pieces and the latter having faster item gains. You still have to do mythic raiding for weapons >410(yes you can get up to 420 from weekly if you're incredibly lucky,wow) and as mentioned before, first 3 mythic bosses are about the lvl of m+10.

    Tldr: If this goes live, m+ participation will drop terribly low, unless hc palace is terribly hard(and no, there wasn't any boss in this addon so far that was terribly hard on hc)

    If ppl feel that +10 is too easy to get a mythic raid lvl gear piece weekly, it could easily be solved by giving mythic lvl gear only to ppl who manage to clear >+17s
    Last edited by Grmmppff; 2019-06-11 at 05:20 PM.

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by coprax View Post
    Are we talking about the weekly chest? Because M+ has never dropped mythic gear.
    Yeah, the 425 ring I got the other day doesn't exist and the 415 socketed boots from last night don't exist either.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  15. #435

  16. #436
    I hope this doesn't go live, for the simple reason that it would be stupid to force mythic raiding for people wanting to push keys. And don't get me wrong, opposite is also a problem, people having to farm dungeons for trinkets for mythic raiding is not better.

    I don't care about the gear ilvl, but if you don't scale down mythic raiders when they enter mythic+ dungeons, you simply invalidate all the competitive aspect of it. There is already a +5 ilvl advantage to raid mythic, how much more do you need?

    There are better ways to fix this...scale the chest up to +15, and make the chest drop better loot if you time the key, for me that's always been the issue, getting 410 gear for failing a +10 is ridiculous, and honestly, if you don't time a +10 right now, you probably shouldn't even try, because they are way too easy, the scaling was off all season, maybe it's because Reaping is easier than Infested, but you get the idea.

    Plus, are you kidding me? Heroic warfronts will probably give the same rewards?

    I really hope one day we'll have a dungeon set and a raid set, problem will be solved.. same for pvp gear, keep it viable in other content, just not as efficient as it could be with passive like Reorigination Array.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maudib View Post
    If you ask me, they shoudl remove gear entirely form M+

    Make titles, special mounts, transmogs, etc. be the rewards. If it is engaging gameplay aimed at competitive play... it should not reward gear
    It's a MMO, everybody play to progress their character, stop with your non sense.

    Mythic+ player get 1 shot at a random 410 loot every week, mythic raiders get that + 9 other sources of 415 gear.. I don't get why it's even a problem, sure at the END of the season the ilvl gap is around +5, but it takes a lot of time to even get there unless you are really lucky.

    If anything, the weekly chest should be shared between mythic raiders and mythic+ players.. kill 5 mythic bosses or do 5 +15 keys and you will be the 415 weekly loot. Same goes for heroic and +10 keys, and normal/+5 keys. This would stop forcing raiders to do a weekly +10, and probably make the effort similar.. pretty sure it takes a similar amount of time to get to do 5 +15 keys than it takes to kill the first 5 bosses of a raid in mythic... obviously it gets easier after a few months.

    I don't know why it's been limited to ONE key, this just create this bane of the existence that is mythic+ carries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodykiller86 View Post
    one those arent the final numbers and theyre just PTR. 2 classic has ONLY end game raids and when youre done with content its useless lol
    Still 2 years worth of entertainment.

  17. #437
    Dreadlord Frostyfire14's Avatar
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    In Legion, a +15 was required in the middle of the expansion wasn't it? Aren't we there with BFA?
    Last edited by Frostyfire14; 2019-06-12 at 12:26 AM.

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by Frostyfire14 View Post
    In Legion, a +15 was required in the middle of the expansion wasn't it? Aren't we there with BFA?
    They didn't increase the difficulty in Legion, that's why it went to +15

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    I hope this doesn't go live, for the simple reason that it would be stupid to force mythic raiding for people wanting to push keys. And don't get me wrong, opposite is also a problem, people having to farm dungeons for trinkets for mythic raiding is not better.

    I don't care about the gear ilvl, but if you don't scale down mythic raiders when they enter mythic+ dungeons, you simply invalidate all the competitive aspect of it. There is already a +5 ilvl advantage to raid mythic, how much more do you need?

    There are better ways to fix this...scale the chest up to +15, and make the chest drop better loot if you time the key, for me that's always been the issue, getting 410 gear for failing a +10 is ridiculous, and honestly, if you don't time a +10 right now, you probably shouldn't even try, because they are way too easy, the scaling was off all season, maybe it's because Reaping is easier than Infested, but you get the idea.

    Plus, are you kidding me? Heroic warfronts will probably give the same rewards?

    I really hope one day we'll have a dungeon set and a raid set, problem will be solved.. same for pvp gear, keep it viable in other content, just not as efficient as it could be with passive like Reorigination Array.

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    It's a MMO, everybody play to progress their character, stop with your non sense.

    Mythic+ player get 1 shot at a random 410 loot every week, mythic raiders get that + 9 other sources of 415 gear.. I don't get why it's even a problem, sure at the END of the season the ilvl gap is around +5, but it takes a lot of time to even get there unless you are really lucky.

    If anything, the weekly chest should be shared between mythic raiders and mythic+ players.. kill 5 mythic bosses or do 5 +15 keys and you will be the 415 weekly loot. Same goes for heroic and +10 keys, and normal/+5 keys. This would stop forcing raiders to do a weekly +10, and probably make the effort similar.. pretty sure it takes a similar amount of time to get to do 5 +15 keys than it takes to kill the first 5 bosses of a raid in mythic... obviously it gets easier after a few months.

    I don't know why it's been limited to ONE key, this just create this bane of the existence that is mythic+ carries.

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    Still 2 years worth of entertainment.
    not even close lol people will clear shit much faster than they did in vanilla

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maudib View Post
    If you ask me, they shoudl remove gear entirely form M+

    Make titles, special mounts, transmogs, etc. be the rewards. If it is engaging gameplay aimed at competitive play... it should not reward gear
    Maudib..........that name sounds familiar. Just gonna say kodi and thats it lol if you know, you know haha

  20. #440
    Dreadlord Frostyfire14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    They didn't increase the difficulty in Legion, that's why it went to +15
    Ah. Thanks for clarifying.

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