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  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    It is because you failed provide any concrete examples what one could possibly improve "the fun" of raids or what is currently not fun about them.

    Most of your text follows suit, a lot of empty wordshells that you fail to give any meaning.



    I suggest you read on the so called "Mechanar Syndrome" that occured during early / mid bc.

    Because you miss the point, in a progression based game, the assumption "people are just doing what they like" is faulty, because the progression itself is fun and most people choose the most efficient path for it.

    That's why PvP participation during TBC was probably the highest, because the PvP gear was pretty decent in comparison to PvE and you could get it by just doing 10 games per week, or even sit AFK in a bg later.
    So you wanted a list of what isn't fun about raiding? Organizing raids, being held to a strict schedule, dealing with larger numbers of people, actually caring about Blizzard balancing, the cost of consumables for people who don't sell carries or enjoy farming herbs, watching fellow raiders burn out grinding AP via content they're never going to be interested in. I'm someone that actually sticks around and continues to raid though. I enjoy progression and doing new bosses so I just deal with the other stuff. However that doesn't mean that I don't see how many people quit or are dissatisfied with raiding and/or BFA in general and the last couple of expansions in particular outside of that. Guilds dying, players burning out on content they don't want but have enormous incentive to do etc. Raiding is declining for a reason and I sincerely doubt its over item level concerns. They could attempt to tackle most of those things outside of scheduled raiding since that's unavoidable if you want the same players to show up
    Last edited by Turkey One; 2019-06-13 at 10:59 PM.

  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    So you wanted a list of what isn't fun about raiding? Organizing raids, being held to a strict schedule, dealing with larger numbers of people,
    How is Blizzard supposed to solve this?

    You earlier argued that Blizzard should make Raids fun again, but your very first point is utterly unsolveable by Blizzard unless they basically remove raiding and just turn everything into party sized content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    actually caring about Blizzard balancing
    Balance is not a thing for M+? Even high keys?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    the cost of consumables for people who don't sell carries or enjoy farming herbs, watching fellow raiders burn out grinding AP via content they're never going to be interested in.
    So you don't use any potions, food or Flask for M+, but want to use them for raids suddenly?

    Especially the AP part is funny because that's pretty much a Mythic raider only thing - the one raiding crowd that is in its reward structure not really affected by M+, unlike normal or heroic raiders.
    The traits beyond the Outer ring are barely relevant and insanely easy to achieve.

    However, don't those traits also affect your performance in M+?

    To me it seems more like you have a problem that Raid logging isn't much of a thing anymore, but those things you listed (aside from the schedule stuff) applies 100% to M+ as well.

    Even then, especially the non-mythic raiding crowd can easily pass over those things because that content is rather leniently tuned in terms of numbers.

  3. #503
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    How is Blizzard supposed to solve this?

    You earlier argued that Blizzard should make Raids fun again, but your very first point is utterly unsolveable by Blizzard unless they basically remove raiding and just turn everything into party sized content.



    Balance is not a thing for M+? Even high keys?



    So you don't use any potions, food or Flask for M+, but want to use them for raids suddenly?

    Especially the AP part is funny because that's pretty much a Mythic raider only thing - the one raiding crowd that is in its reward structure not really affected by M+, unlike normal or heroic raiders.
    The traits beyond the Outer ring are barely relevant and insanely easy to achieve.

    However, don't those traits also affect your performance in M+?

    To me it seems more like you have a problem that Raid logging isn't much of a thing anymore, but those things you listed (aside from the schedule stuff) applies 100% to M+ as well.

    Even then, especially the non-mythic raiding crowd can easily pass over those things because that content is rather leniently tuned in terms of numbers.
    You're right that those things do impact M+ too to varying degrees but its not about making raiding better or more fun than M+. Those are just things that are bad right now if you choose to push any content and raiding combines them with its own particular organizational and time commitment requirements creating a scenario that's pretty much chasing people away at the higher end. I have no idea what its like as a heroic guild or lower though and you'd have to ask those people what could make raiding more interesting to them.

    I think there is a 10/25 man vs 20 argument hidden in here somewhere too. I agree that they're better able to balance a solely 20 man mythic difficulty but I'm not sure I agree that that was a better solution than 10 man raiding for quite a lot of raiders and smaller servers in terms of an enjoyable experience
    Last edited by Turkey One; 2019-06-13 at 11:33 PM.

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    You're right that those things do impact M+ too to varying degrees but its not about making raiding better or more fun than M+. Those are just things that are bad right now if you choose to push any content and raiding combines them with its own particular organizational and time commitment requirements creating a scenario that's pretty much chasing people away at the higher end. I have no idea what its like as a heroic guild or lower though and you'd have to ask those people what could make raiding more interesting to them.

    I think there is a 10/25 man vs 20 argument hidden in here somewhere too. I agree that they're better able to balance a solely 20 man mythic difficulty but I'm not sure I agree that that was a better solution than 10 man raiding for quite a lot of raiders and smaller servers in terms of an enjoyable experience
    High end content is just different to the rest of the game, you dont need guilds for heroic content. You can just start a pug and clear heroic in a few weeks. Maybe even a couple of mythic bosses. you dont need to farm AP all day cause the effect the inner rings have is small. It is the same with pushing high keys in m+ you need consumables there, invis pots, etc.
    Having 20 people with all azerite rings active could be the difference in killing a boss on mythic or beeing able to intime a +18 cause someone got a shield and didnt die or healed by inner ring trait. Maybe you only need 4 instead of 5 healers cause of that. This doenst affect the rest of the content and thats why people get burned out in high end content.
    We are 5 people currently mostly doing M+, on wednesday Ill ask if we want to clear HC BoD or CoS. If we want to i´ll try and find a date. If our healer doesnt have time, we will start a pug as 4. We enjoy the HC pug. And we enjoy playing the game this way. But I can tell you 100% if all 5 of us join a mythic guild 1 will be kicked cause his work schedule doenst allow him to be active all the time. 2 will be pissed of not having the freedom of saying no to farming AP or not beeing able to skip raiding when he wants to. the other 2 will maybe stay but after some time 1 will like to play with the other 3 again and we will start going back to m+ and hc pug. so the last one would be me not investing every day of the week raiding mythic, doing hc pugs with my friends and m+ with my friends.

    So yes I agree unless you are 100% invested into clearing mythic as fast as possible or getting the best gear and titles and mounts. It is hard to keep the motivation going for mythic raiders. If you dont care about mounts and titles just enjoy playing this game from time to time hc raiding and m+ are way more appelling to you, the gear difference is not that much about 5ilvl at the end of the season.
    Your points are valid but thats why Mythic Raiders do have the better gear and mounts titles, its harder to organize, more grindy etc. The rest of the game is not like that.

  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    M+ should never have dropped any gear to begin with.
    M+ should have normalized all gear, to a specific iLevel. Only then can you meassure people's skill
    Out of curiosity did they ever fix the issue with iLvl normalised gear that made certain DPS specs (namely ones that relied on crit strike rating and crit procs) completely toilet compared to ones that scaled with other stats (namely the haste-based DPS specs), because I remember that making challenge modes and that ring of trials solo-challenge thing frustrating in MoP, or does combat work very differently now?

    Question not directed at you personally, and sorry if it's woefully offtopic.
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Trebuchets new meta.

  6. #506
    Make the individual M+ instances have weekly loot lockouts like regular mythic dungeons (to kill off the necessity for raiders to farm them like crazy) and have the weekly +10 reward ~Heroic level loot/+15-18 reward Mythic level loot (depending on tuning) and I think it would be fine. The number of items should probably be 2 at least every other week then though because otherwise M+ would not work as a proper gear progression path.

  7. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Out of curiosity did they ever fix the issue with iLvl normalised gear that made certain DPS specs (namely ones that relied on crit strike rating and crit procs) completely toilet compared to ones that scaled with other stats (namely the haste-based DPS specs), because I remember that making challenge modes and that ring of trials solo-challenge thing frustrating in MoP, or does combat work very differently now?

    Question not directed at you personally, and sorry if it's woefully offtopic.
    In MoP the problem was that higher gear had more socket in them since sockets were not disabled back than making challenge mode alot easier with gear.

    In WoD challenge mode rewarded gear on a daily basis, and some scaling classes were absolute garbage for gold time.

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    In WoD challenge mode rewarded gear on a daily basis, and some scaling classes were absolute garbage for gold time.
    So that's a "no" then?

    Was WoD the last time they had iLvl normalised content?
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Trebuchets new meta.

  9. #509
    Dreadlord imunreal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    So that's a "no" then?

    Was WoD the last time they had iLvl normalised content?
    AFAIK, it is. It’s a fantastic idea if done correctly. They could easily give every class a template of stats that make their class smooth and perfect to play but nerf/buff the output as a % scale. The problem with it though, is when you come out of the content and your proper gear is not up to scratch and your class then feels sluggish again....

  10. #510
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    So that's a "no" then?

    Was WoD the last time they had iLvl normalised content?
    Im pretty sure after WoD the only content with Ilvl normalised is Timewalking.

    Uldir Azeritetrait was something that could be used in the future.

  11. #511
    High Overlord Atraxxa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamushi View Post
    Make the individual M+ instances have weekly loot lockouts like regular mythic dungeons (to kill off the necessity for raiders to farm them like crazy) and have the weekly +10 reward ~Heroic level loot/+15-18 reward Mythic level loot (depending on tuning) and I think it would be fine. The number of items should probably be 2 at least every other week then though because otherwise M+ would not work as a proper gear progression path.
    Terrible idea, this would actually kill the game for many. Imagine the tens of thousands of players that do nothing but Mythic+ having nothing to do all week....might as well unsub. Not to mention finding mythic + groups would be substantially harder if this was implemented.
    You asked a question and I gave you the answer. You might not agree with or fully understand the answer, but, it is correct because of reasons.”

  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    but its not about making raiding better or more fun than M+.
    ...but it kinda is?

    I mean, in your very first post you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    Maybe if raiding were actually fun and enjoyable to more it would be more popular.
    This line was explicitly picked up by me.
    Whether it's supposed to be "more fun" than M+ is another tale, but you literally raised the point that Blizzard should make raiding more fun.

    But those points basically only correlate with raiding, especially AP is a gamewide system that doesn't affect just raiding.
    Whether you say "Those systems aren't fun" or "raiding isn't fun" is a major difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    I think there is a 10/25 man vs 20 argument hidden in here somewhere too. I agree that they're better able to balance a solely 20 man mythic difficulty but I'm not sure I agree that that was a better solution than 10 man raiding for quite a lot of raiders and smaller servers in terms of an enjoyable experience
    Here is my big problem with your stance: I have no idea what sort of difficulty you are talking about.

    10 / 25 man discussion is a discussion basically limited to high end raiders, the current mythic raiders, as any other difficulty is flexible in terms of size, with 10 people being the minimum.

    However, those people (meaning mythic raider) are barely affected by M+ reward structure outside of the first week(s), as M+ relies on Titanforging in order to be on par with mythic loot.

    Mythic raids aren't "dying" due to M+, normal and heroic raids are, because their rewards are in direct competition with M+ loot, unlike Mythic which still holds the most highest base loot.
    To be clear on that, in my opinion, Mythic raiding still holds a greater incentive due to the superior loot reward, while normal / heroic raiding lack this advantage over M+, thus they are declining.

    The fact that you however now seemingly limit this discussion to the "high end" difficulty confuses me, because earlier you also raised the argument that:
    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    actually caring about Blizzard balancing
    Despite the fact that if you are a "high end" raider, you cared about balance since freaking Vanilla - You always had to care about balance if you chose this sort of raiding.

    And Balance is most certainly not an advantage of M+ once you start pushing into keys above +15.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-06-14 at 03:47 PM.

  13. #513
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Mythic raids aren't "dying" due to M+, normal and heroic raids are, because their rewards are in direct competition with M+ loot, unlike Mythic which still holds the most highest base loot.
    To be clear on that, in my opinion, Mythic raiding still holds a greater incentive due to the superior loot reward, while normal / heroic raiding lack this advantage over M+, thus they are declining.
    Is it declining? I do agree with what you are saying. But I feel that the number of guilds are declining. Not HC raid by itself. Ive seen alot of guilds disband and alot of them start pugging it is just the more efficent way to get gear and clear the Raid. Excluding guilds who can clear heroic in weeks 1-3.

    I do get that the chest beeing almost mandatory cause it is the best non mythicraid gear.

    I do have to ask, who are we actually talking about when it comes to m+ vs hc. At the start of a season a player who raids 2 days a week, and does a third day +10 to maybe get 1-3 items after 3-4 hours, the same guy can search for another raid and kill the third HC boss over and over again and use extra loot an that day and get maybe 2 items. Yeah this guy should be rewarded for doing it.
    Mythic guilds who want to be top 30 to improve chances of getting there and doing alot of m+, they should be rewarded aswell. If you want to do +20 or higher you may need to kill some mythic bosses for better gear.

    Exluding the weekly chest. Are people really that pissed cause a M+ gets a few more items than an hc raider? People talk about it like you do one evening of 3h m+ and get 10 usefull items a WF weapon and 1 Titanforged BiS trinket. Its like saying you are pissed cause a heroic raider can get up to 2 415 items almost for free.

    People should do what is fun for them, if you dont like M+ you shouldnt have to do it cause of a weekly chest. If you dont like HC you shouldnt have to do it either. Still getting basically a WF nhc item for doing a +10 or above doesnt feel very rewarding.
    If your problem is that you dont like m+ cause its not fun ok dont do it. But if its not fun that people who do it get the same gear no one can help you with that.

    Do what you is fun for you. You like high end mythic raiding, balancing, getting the best gear at the start to maximize dps, organizing needing 20 active people, thats all part of it. Has been and most likely always will be. But its not mandatory for a HC only guild to run multiple m+.

    Find what you think is fun and do it, its not about making the ones who have fun not having as much fun. If you find nothing well you can maybe do Heroic Warfront next season. But if you dont like m+ think heroic is too easy, mythic is to time consuming, and worldquest doesnt bring you joy either. But if you cant find joy in a game with multiple content options, thats not the game for that person.
    Last edited by Viromand; 2019-06-14 at 05:38 PM.

  14. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by xblubbx View Post
    What do you mean? The difficulty in m+ was increased several times during Legion. Or did you mean something else?
    Not for 7.1, for 7.1 they just moved the chest threshold to +15 instead of +10.

  15. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    Is it declining? I do agree with what you are saying. But I feel that the number of guilds are declining. Not HC raid by itself. Ive seen alot of guilds disband and alot of them start pugging it is just the more efficent way to get gear and clear the Raid. Excluding guilds who can clear heroic in weeks 1-3.
    Well, call it anecdotal but instead of people actually looking for other people to play, trade chat at least on my server is full of boost raids.
    Point may be because a lot more people can do it than previously but i the overall relevance of heroic raiding has dissipated, my Hunter never touched heroic once yet still has like 402 Ilvl and barely needs anything from the raid except trinket(s) and some specific azerite piece.

    The incentive to raid anything below mythic is just not there anymore in terms of character progression.
    Previously, if people didn't like Pug raids, they had to organize to at least a 10man raid in order to progress their character, now four other people and some decent keys suffice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    I do get that the chest beeing almost mandatory cause it is the best non mythicraid gear.
    I wouldn't blame the M+ chest itself, it is however a factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    I do have to ask, who are we actually talking about when it comes to m+ vs hc.
    People can aren't raiding mythic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    Mythic guilds who want to be top 30 to improve chances of getting there and doing alot of m+, they should be rewarded aswell. If you want to do +20 or higher you may need to kill some mythic bosses for better gear.
    Personally i would exclude Mythic (raider) from this discussion entirely because, as said multiple times, their incentive in terms of progression / motivation isn't affected as much as compared to someone who raids below mythic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    People talk about it like you do one evening of 3h m+ and get 10 usefull items a WF weapon and 1 Titanforged BiS trinket.
    That statement was never implied in any form.
    The issue is just that unless a certain activity has a decent chance of providing an upgrade, people are less likely to be motivated to engage in an activity, one that requires actual organization on top of that.

    If your character already is decked in 400 Ilvl pieces, the motivation for heroic raiding is just not there anymore for a lot of people, Titanforging does not fix that.

    You could turn this around and let M+ only hand out really bad loot, then watch how the participation drops through the floor.

    We had the same thing in Cata / MoP, 10man Heroic yielded same loot as 25man Heroic, yet people slowly but surely gravitated towards 10man because the organization part wasn't nearly as big as for 25man Heroic.
    The reason why this effect wasn't nearly as big during Wotlk because 10man loot was made intentionally worse than its 25man counterpart, thus giving an incentive to push into 25man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    People should do what is fun for them
    And this statement has shown not to be true for anyone who has actually played TBC.

    Mechanar heroic was among the most popular 5man dungeons during TBC - was it however the best designed one?
    No, it just yielded a lot of Badges for a rather small instance, thus many people made sure they ran it least once per day.

    Similiar story with PvP in TBC, a lot of people just engaged in both Arena and Random Battlegrounds because the PvP Gear was pretty decent even for PvE.
    On top of that, it was easier to acquire than any equivalent PvE piece.

    Once PvP and PvE had a clear separation, participation rates dropped during Wotlk, because PvP gear was pretty bad for PvE.

    The idea that people simply choose the type of content that is most fun to them is not true in a progression based RPG, because the progression itself is fun, not necessarily the activity.
    The quintessence is that progressing your character is still fun, even if the activity you are doing may not be fun to you if viewed in isolation.

    M+ is simply more efficient than heroic raiding, because a lot of the organization effort vanishes.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-06-14 at 09:51 PM.

  16. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    ...but it kinda is?

    I mean, in your very first post you said:



    This line was explicitly picked up by me.
    Whether it's supposed to be "more fun" than M+ is another tale, but you literally raised the point that Blizzard should make raiding more fun.

    But those points basically only correlate with raiding, especially AP is a gamewide system that doesn't affect just raiding.
    Whether you say "Those systems aren't fun" or "raiding isn't fun" is a major difference.



    Here is my big problem with your stance: I have no idea what sort of difficulty you are talking about.

    10 / 25 man discussion is a discussion basically limited to high end raiders, the current mythic raiders, as any other difficulty is flexible in terms of size, with 10 people being the minimum.

    However, those people (meaning mythic raider) are barely affected by M+ reward structure outside of the first week(s), as M+ relies on Titanforging in order to be on par with mythic loot.

    Mythic raids aren't "dying" due to M+, normal and heroic raids are, because their rewards are in direct competition with M+ loot, unlike Mythic which still holds the most highest base loot.
    To be clear on that, in my opinion, Mythic raiding still holds a greater incentive due to the superior loot reward, while normal / heroic raiding lack this advantage over M+, thus they are declining.

    The fact that you however now seemingly limit this discussion to the "high end" difficulty confuses me, because earlier you also raised the argument that:


    Despite the fact that if you are a "high end" raider, you cared about balance since freaking Vanilla - You always had to care about balance if you chose this sort of raiding.

    And Balance is most certainly not an advantage of M+ once you start pushing into keys above +15.
    Everything I was saying was related to mythic raiding and how people could have more fun inside of that content. When I said it could be more fun I didn't mean as a direct comparison to M+ just as a more general statement about mythic raiding and the number of guilds and players that are absent as that number continues to grow while things like M+ become this huge game wide content that many more people attempt to participate in. If you go back a few pages you'll see where I talked about the reward/difficulty curve between heroic raiding and M+. Its definitely broken in the case of M+ but rather than just making M+ gear bad they should just be adjusting that curve to where you need to actually invest time and effort if you want the weekly M+ reward that rivals mythic raiding gear and base loot to rival or maybe even surpass heroic raids if they let it scale beyond 15. Right now spamming M+ lets the mythic guild skip and not care about heroic week but the bar for a keystone level high enough to do that is so low that the heroic raiders can do the same thing thus invalidating anything possible in normal/heroic raids which is stupid. As for the Blizzard balancing part obviously that's always been that way but its never fun and instead of improving I would say they've done worse this expansion than the last couple so I added it to the pile of concerns

    If you did stop and make the comparison between the two though while they share many of the same problems M+ is easier to organize and participate in whenever you want. I don't really think that just nerfing it to the ground as some people suggest is really the smart thing to do. People should be allowed to progress with and enjoy that content. They just need to make sure that people actually need to progress and make an effort to get the nicer things rather than putting them at 10 which is easy day one of any season. After that they need to try and help guilds successfully recruit and maintain rosters by hopefully addressing the things that pile up until players just aren't willing to grind anymore at the high end. I think everyone would be in a better place if they did this
    Last edited by Turkey One; 2019-06-14 at 09:33 PM.

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    Everything I was saying was related to mythic raiding and how people could have more fun inside of that content.
    And all you listed were things that also apply to highkeys in M+, the only difficulty in M+ that comes close to Mythic raiding in terms of effort / difficulty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    When I said it could be more fun I didn't mean as a direct comparison to M+ just as a more general statement about mythic raiding and the number of guilds and players that are absent as that number continues to
    But why compare it to mythic?
    The one difficulty that is not in direct competition with M+ in terms of loot?

    On top of that, why compare an entire system to a single difficulty mode another game system? That doesn't make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    grow while things like M+ become this huge game wide content that many more people attempt to participate in.
    Greater participation doesn't necessarily proof it's superior, we've seen in TBC that this isn't true.
    I remember Ion saying that most people just do a single M+ for the weekly chest, which in my opinion doesn't sound like a massive success to be honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    As for the Blizzard balancing part obviously that's always been that way but its never fun and instead of improving I would say they've done worse this expansion than the last couple so I added it to the pile of concerns
    I think it's bad as always, but M+ being added to the equation most certainly didn't help there, because M+ highkeys are imbalanced as fuck.

  18. #518
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    M+ is simply more efficient than heroic raiding, because a lot of the organization effort vanishes.
    Yes getting 5 people together i alot easier in terms of organization. On the other hand you open you LFG tool search for heroic BoD and you will get some in week 1 alot more in week 2 after that getting acces to a HC group is really easy cause there are so many open.

    Like you said some people dont like pugs, some people dont like set dates or beeing a guild leader an organizing it. If you dont like both you have m+ if you dont like that well you could get gear comparable gear from warfronts and warfront world boss(it is alot easier but alot slower aswell, maybe even too slow to really get the sense of progression), or pvp maybe.

    If item progression is your main source of fun, you have many ways to do so. Get a HC guild, run pugs, m+, pvp, warfront. It will not hurt you that much if you dont run either of them, I hate warfronts and maybe did them 2 or 3 times on my main. I believe having multiple options to obtain HC quality item level is a good thing, you can choose what is you want to do. Exluding the weekly chest. Getting rid of one of them will be bad.
    Each has it perks. Having a raidguild may grant you the item you want faster cause some people could trade it and are willing too, or you have a loot council. Pugging allows you to queue for the same boss and using more extra loot. M+ is easier to organize but you might end up not getting the key you want or the item you need from that dungeon. our you need to go alone or find someone with that key and go with 1-4 randoms and maybe the group will disband.
    If Ian data is correct and most of the people only run 1 for the chest, getting rid of it or giving raiders one aswell ( as i wrote in one of my previous posts) might help people who dont want to run m+. So if those people see m+ as a problem solve it that way not by taking away the "progression fun" of someone else.

    Still if you dont like Guilds (set days or recruiting), dont like pugs, dont like m+, dont like pvp. Even if item progression is fun to you but means of getting those items isnt, well you will have to wait for content that is or dont play the game.

    I do remember the days of mechanar on my old account, if you compare it to now, would everybody run freehol+10 to get the weekly chest, yes they would. If you gave HC raiders the chest for killing a certain amount of bosses in the raid, people would not run 1 m+ each week or maybe even more if they dont like it.
    It does fell mandatory for a heroic raid beeing pug or guild to run atleast on m10 each week. Take that away and people you dont like m+ will not run it. It feels like you have so many options getting hc quality gear doing whatever pleases you, but one is more rewarding in terms of ilvl once a week.

  19. #519
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    On the other hand you open you LFG tool search for heroic BoD and you will get some in week 1 alot more in week 2 after that getting acces to a HC group is really easy cause there are so many open.
    Yeah, but your average heroic raid still takes longer than an M+ dungeon and top of that, has a higher failure rate.
    Unless your M+ group throws the towel, you will always at the bare minimum have a shot at loot or get your weekly cache from it.

    This doesn't exist in raids, if you wipe, you wipe, period, no consolation prize given.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    I believe having multiple options to obtain HC quality item level is a good thing, you can choose what is you want to do. Exluding the weekly chest. Getting rid of one of them will be bad.
    I believe that the increased quantity of loot available to players made a system such as Warforging (and later on, Titanforging) a necessity.
    Originally, your Raid lockout provided a natural throttle on your gear progression, you had to be one lucky person to basically get all items in earlier days.
    Therefore, gear remained a valid motivation to continously log in and play your character, because "getting done" required some dedication.

    While Blizzard did increase the quantity of loot within raids over the years, the thing just blew off once M+ joined in.

    This is not an attack on M+ as a whole, but its extremely lenient reward structure has a deteriorating effect on gear as character progression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    Take that away and people you dont like m+ will not run it.
    I think the problem is less people feeling "forced" into M+, but simply how it slowly kills off the motivation to raid.
    If you have barely any upgrades to gain from a raid, a lot people will lose motivation to actually join a raid, that's natural.

    Previously, if you killed a raid boss and you didn't get item you wanted, you basically had to wait another week for the next shot, however, once you got it, it felt amazing.
    It was a pretty simple system that made you come back.

    Nowadays, if you don't get a certain slot filled, you could just run an M+ and hope it drops, even gauge the odds in your favour via group composition.
    Once you have it, you basically hunt titanforged items, which no one enjoys.

  20. #520
    Scarab Lord dacoolist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    So that's a "no" then?

    Was WoD the last time they had iLvl normalised content?
    They reworked the system during the squish, the normalized stuff is gone - Boss Anus!

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