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  1. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    They didn't increase the difficulty in Legion, that's why it went to +15
    I think there's a legitimate case for increasing the scaling all the way to +15 with current power creep

  2. #442
    I'm sorry for all the 410 people spamming M10 without having seen Myth BoD but M+ need nerfs and then adjustments.


    I know that is nice having the same gear lvl that Mythic raiders have but still it is worthless for you since you do the Tortollan WQ as end content or pet dungeons or farming xmog from previous raids.

    M10 welfare gear loop needs to be destroyed and give 15-20 brackets the Mythic Gear quality


    Then you can plan to give extra rewards, or in this case the real rewards for the brackets 10-15-20.



    Unfortunately WF and TF makes this really hard to fix because you could have just done a WoD scaling to have players the real challenge.

    Hence removing the WF and TF from M+ is the only way to proper fix it and make Raiding still the main dish.
    Last edited by Porcodio; 2019-06-12 at 06:56 AM.

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by Porcodio View Post
    I'm sorry for all the 410 people spamming M10 without having seen Myth BoD but M+ need nerfs and then adjustments.


    I know that is nice having the same gear lvl that Mythic raiders have but still it is worthless for you since you do the Tortollan WQ as end content or pet dungeons or farming xmog from previous raids.

    M10 welfare gear loop needs to be destroyed and give 15-20 brackets the Mythic Gear quality


    Then you can plan to give extra rewards, or in this case the real rewards for the brackets 10-15-20.



    Unfortunately WF and TF makes this really hard to fix because you could have just done a WoD scaling to have players the real challenge.

    Hence removing the WF and TF from M+ is the only way to proper fix it and make Raiding still the main dish.
    WF and TF should be deleted PERIOD. DELETED. Raid azerite gear should provide a BUFF to the raid environment, make m+ azerite gear semi-worthless for raiding but still strong for m+, problem fixed

  4. #444
    Over 9000! Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Porcodio View Post
    I know that is nice having the same gear lvl that Mythic raiders have but still it is worthless for you since you do the Tortollan WQ as end content or pet dungeons or farming xmog from previous raids.
    .
    What are you talking about? M+ is, at the same time, the content and end game content for some players. I do nothing but M+, other than WF for a chance at gear piece to improve my chances of getting into higher keys.

    I am not, however, contesting your argument that M+ should award the same quality of gear as Mythic raiding.

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    What are you talking about? M+ is, at the same time, the content and end game content for some players. I do nothing but M+, other than WF for a chance at gear piece to improve my chances of getting into higher keys.

    I am not, however, contesting your argument that M+ should award the same quality of gear as Mythic raiding.
    But M+ isn't really an end game content compared to Raids.

    How can be doing the same dungeons for 12 months, after mastering the route to do a perfect timer, an end game content?

    How can be learning which pack to skip after 5 keys be on the same spot as 400 wipes at Jaina or Mekkatorque?

    WF for doing Higher Keys is the Problem and the Consequence at the same time because people tend to ask higher item lvl thinking that more gear = more skill than but WF and TF hide the skill or the non skill behind inflating item lvl.


    I could get M+ as the system you described if there wasn't WF.

    If somebody can't raid but want some challengin content M+ as Greater Rift it is fine but when the gear is tied to the difficulty without any " procs "

    Because then if you go from +10 to +15 or +20 without having to TF an item from +10 is in my opinion better especially if you make the Mythic Gear quality only from higher keys, you will rely on your skill more than gear.

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Scourge View Post
    I think there's a legitimate case for increasing the scaling all the way to +15 with current power creep
    currently on the ptr a 10 is about the same difficulty somewhere between a 15 and 17. i think they may be compensating for the power creep.

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by Porcodio View Post
    How can be doing the same dungeons for 12 months, after mastering the route to do a perfect timer, an end game content?

    How can be learning which pack to skip after 5 keys be on the same spot as 400 wipes at Jaina or Mekkatorque?
    Don't you get mythic level gear from doing 15 year old battle grounds?

  8. #448
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    I do M+ way more than I raid but I like this change. I agree the best loot in the game should not drop from a M+. Maybe if it was a 15 but, not a 10. This will give me reason again to raid hardcore. I can't wait to join a raid with all my old friends again.

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by Porcodio View Post
    But M+ isn't really an end game content compared to Raids.

    How can be doing the same dungeons for 12 months, after mastering the route to do a perfect timer, an end game content?
    You do it at the end of the game.

    Not suggesting that it is on par, or should be, with raiding, I think a full mythic raider should have a noticeably higher ilvl over someone who just does m+.

    However it is still end game content.
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  10. #450
    If this is indeed intended which I hope it isn't as there hasn't been official verification.

    If it is how ever it will be the biggest garbage change ever.

    I agree with the concept that Mythic raiding gear should be the -ONLY- highest item level available in-game. Mythic+ gear even at 10 and weekly cache was never as high as Mythic raiding gear. The end dungeon loot was only on par with heroic, and the cache will still 5 item levels below Mythic raiding.

    With that said, in today's modern World of Warcraft even if they nerf M+ gear, people can still obtain 430+ from a world boss. Heck, doing simple FARMABLE world content in 8.2 will yield you with 425 gear eventually. World content WILL YIELD 425, which left how it is currently now, will even be higher than M+ 10 gear. What kind of joke is this? If confirmed as intended, this is another change Blizzard has just decided to crap out instead of think it through and to see other avenues in the game that also would need addressed if we want to go down the road of raiding being the best viable option for gearing.

    If we go on the subject that Mythic raiding should offer the highest item level only, then sure, but at least they should be consistent and PvP rewards should be nerfed as well.

    Gladiator gear should be around the same as the highest Mythic+ rewards. Caches should be the same.

    PvP content isn't even expierencing end-game raiding, either. It does not require to be the same as Mythic raid item level.

    In fact, let's have world content yielding the HIGHEST best alternative to raiding! Nice move.

    PS: Game's a joke anyway, power from gear in PvP even in the world means nothing now. My damage VS a 130k player is like I'm hitting a brick wall even though I have more than 250k health points. I'm guessing in 8.2 mobs and everything else also scale up to further detach from your character's progression and power.
    Last edited by Tymaar; 2019-06-12 at 04:16 PM.

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by thedoom View Post
    youtube.com/watch?v=SDsZKDwL1ho




    Thanks to all these selfish, arrogant raiders who kept complaining to blizzard that Mythic+ dropped good gear.

    This game is soo garbage now, if you don't run raids then there is 0 content left. It's time to unsub until Classic WoW.

    On the one hand I can understand if mythic+ only players are outraged over this change,
    on the other hand I kinda agree with it.


    Mythic+ below 15+ are vastly easier gameplay wise as well as logistic wise than a heroic raid (especially in the first month or two of a new raid), but +10 giving equal loot than heroic raiding makes the whole raiding ordeal absurd.

    Also you can easily gear multiple alts to mythic raid gear ilvl currently without setting foot in one due to the weekly chests, which doesnt incentivise many to even bother with mythic raiding let alone feel the need to do hc raids sans a few bis trinket bosses with their alts.


    Overall, as bitter of a pill this is for some to swallow, this would be a big net positive for the raiding community with the benefit of hurting m+ sellers and toxic keyspammers too.
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  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodykiller86 View Post
    not even close lol people will clear shit much faster than they did in vanilla
    Would be pretty hard since it'll be time gated with a fixed schedule.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Porcodio View Post
    I'm sorry for all the 410 people spamming M10 without having seen Myth BoD but M+ need nerfs and then adjustments.


    I know that is nice having the same gear lvl that Mythic raiders have but still it is worthless for you since you do the Tortollan WQ as end content or pet dungeons or farming xmog from previous raids.

    M10 welfare gear loop needs to be destroyed and give 15-20 brackets the Mythic Gear quality


    Then you can plan to give extra rewards, or in this case the real rewards for the brackets 10-15-20.



    Unfortunately WF and TF makes this really hard to fix because you could have just done a WoD scaling to have players the real challenge.

    Hence removing the WF and TF from M+ is the only way to proper fix it and make Raiding still the main dish.
    We need the gear to push up to +20, not do stupid world quests, and I don't want to have to waste my time in mythic raiding in order to be able to do.

    But I totally agree there is absolutely zero purpose to mythic raiding anymore.. that's why I stopped and focus on mythic+ and heroic raiding instead.. much more enjoyable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Porcodio View Post
    How can be learning which pack to skip after 5 keys be on the same spot as 400 wipes at Jaina or Mekkatorque?
    Because wiping 400 times on Jaina or Mekkatorque following Method's video guide is different?

    There is a difficulty cap on mythic raiding, not on mythic+...

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    Yeah, the 425 ring I got the other day doesn't exist and the 415 socketed boots from last night don't exist either.
    That's not Mythic gear, that is 410 gear that Warforged/Titanforged. You're not getting 410 gear from Mythic raiding.

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Don't you get mythic level gear from doing 15 year old battle grounds?
    Even if you play on Glad rating, the base ilvl of random drops is 405.

    PvP, as far as gearing is concerned, is nothing but a side activity for the one item from the weekly chest, outside of that, the droprate of items is far too low and far too random (as almost any stat combination is possible for PvP items).

    I cannot imagine how anyone could seriously gear themselves currently solely via PvP, the droprate is piss poor and your sole chance for Azerite is the weekly chest or Upgrade token + Conquest Azerite piece.

  15. #455
    I get that it sort of in theory makes sense that M+ shouldnt give the same rewards as heroic and certainly mythic, and that farming the same gear each tier sucks, but....

    I will have basically no incentive to do M+ anymore. Even the weekly chest would be useless after a week or 2. Especially combined with the crappy new affix I could see this dropping M+ participation by like 50+%, maybe much more. I can't imagine it will stay implemented that way for long, they almost certainly dont want to alienate the M+ crowd, I am sure its much bigger than the raiding population.

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    They didn't increase the difficulty in Legion, that's why it went to +15
    What do you mean? The difficulty in m+ was increased several times during Legion. Or did you mean something else?

  17. #457
    Legendary! sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puri View Post
    Unless there is a blue post confirming this I would't worry too much: Loot in the first week of m+ always was reduced to heroic levels in the weekly chest and even less in the instance. Only when mythic raiding opened the itemlevel was increased.

    So that's most likely what you are seeing on the PTR.
    yes i remember that too, in fact isn't that the norm?
    i got carried and forgot that is always the case
    (btw i was happy with the 'change', too bad there is no change)

    EDIT : did we really go 23 page on a 'change' that isn't change ? Did blizz officially change it or like the usual just pre-raid days, won't drop raid lvl items ?
    Last edited by sam86; 2019-06-12 at 10:42 PM.
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  18. #458
    Stood in the Fire EntertainmentNihilist's Avatar
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    Because Raids are supposed to be the endgame. Leveling ->World Content -> Dungeons -> Raids. That's how WoW is supposed to work. Do you complain that acts 1-4 in Diablo 2 are worthless because they don't drop as good gear as act 5? No, it's called progression. Raids are the end of the progression, they should drop the best gear (except for LFR, mythic dungeons can drop better gear than LFR, that's fine).

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    yes i remember that too, in fact isn't that the norm?
    i got carried and forgot that is always the case
    (btw i was happy with the 'change', too bad there is no change)

    EDIT : did we really go 23 page on a 'change' that isn't change ? Did blizz officially change it or like the usual just pre-raid days, won't drop raid lvl items ?
    To be fair, the OP simply provoked a discussion around the fairness of the current loot system in BFA and it's effect on raiding.

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by calanos View Post
    I am sure its much bigger than the raiding population.
    Remember what happened to 10man heroic? They didn't just aliente those, they told them to recruit 10 people, fuse with another guild or fuck off.
    I would argue that the total amount of 10man heroic raiders was greater than the total amount of 25man raiders by the end of MoP.

    Unless you're a Mythic raider, M+ effectively replaces raiding, that's why heroic guilds seem to vanish, because there is no incentive for anyone to set Heroic as their endgame - you get your loot from M+ already (or even freaking WQ's right now).

    More game modes sounds fine on paper, but if all game modes award the same type of currency in similiar quality, you'll sooner or later see people gravitating towards a path of least resistance.
    M+ is the path of least resistance because it requires less people, we are repeating history here right now.

    In a social game such as WoW, you'll see that people basically face a choice, attempt to pull through and keep going or go with the masses, most people choose the latter.
    The point is, you need other people to play with you, if you have trouble finding people to raid heroic in an organized manner because M+ basically feeds them their gear, you'll have difficulties to stem a roster that isn't basically a pug raid.

    Unless Blizzard creates clear cut barriers (like they did with PvP until Legion), the raiding population below mythic will further dwindle due to M+.

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