Blizzard killed off Mythic+ on PTR

[calanos]

I get that it sort of in theory makes sense that M+ shouldnt give the same rewards as heroic and certainly mythic, and that farming the same gear each tier sucks, but....

I will have basically no incentive to do M+ anymore. Even the weekly chest would be useless after a week or 2. Especially combined with the crappy new affix I could see this dropping M+ participation by like 50+%, maybe much more. I can't imagine it will stay implemented that way for long, they almost certainly dont want to alienate the M+ crowd, I am sure its much bigger than the raiding population.

[xblubbx]

They didn't increase the difficulty in Legion, that's why it went to +15

What do you mean? The difficulty in m+ was increased several times during Legion. Or did you mean something else?

[sam86]

Unless there is a blue post confirming this I would't worry too much: Loot in the first week of m+ always was reduced to heroic levels in the weekly chest and even less in the instance. Only when mythic raiding opened the itemlevel was increased.

So that's most likely what you are seeing on the PTR.

yes i remember that too, in fact isn't that the norm?
i got carried and forgot that is always the case
(btw i was happy with the 'change', too bad there is no change)

EDIT : did we really go 23 page on a 'change' that isn't change ? Did blizz officially change it or like the usual just pre-raid days, won't drop raid lvl items ?

[EntertainmentNihilist]

Because Raids are supposed to be the endgame. Leveling ->World Content -> Dungeons -> Raids. That's how WoW is supposed to work. Do you complain that acts 1-4 in Diablo 2 are worthless because they don't drop as good gear as act 5? No, it's called progression. Raids are the end of the progression, they should drop the best gear (except for LFR, mythic dungeons can drop better gear than LFR, that's fine).

[Dakara]

yes i remember that too, in fact isn't that the norm?
i got carried and forgot that is always the case
(btw i was happy with the 'change', too bad there is no change)

EDIT : did we really go 23 page on a 'change' that isn't change ? Did blizz officially change it or like the usual just pre-raid days, won't drop raid lvl items ?

To be fair, the OP simply provoked a discussion around the fairness of the current loot system in BFA and it's effect on raiding.

[Kralljin]

I am sure its much bigger than the raiding population.

Remember what happened to 10man heroic? They didn't just aliente those, they told them to recruit 10 people, fuse with another guild or fuck off.
I would argue that the total amount of 10man heroic raiders was greater than the total amount of 25man raiders by the end of MoP.

Unless you're a Mythic raider, M+ effectively replaces raiding, that's why heroic guilds seem to vanish, because there is no incentive for anyone to set Heroic as their endgame - you get your loot from M+ already (or even freaking WQ's right now).

More game modes sounds fine on paper, but if all game modes award the same type of currency in similiar quality, you'll sooner or later see people gravitating towards a path of least resistance.
M+ is the path of least resistance because it requires less people, we are repeating history here right now.

In a social game such as WoW, you'll see that people basically face a choice, attempt to pull through and keep going or go with the masses, most people choose the latter.
The point is, you need other people to play with you, if you have trouble finding people to raid heroic in an organized manner because M+ basically feeds them their gear, you'll have difficulties to stem a roster that isn't basically a pug raid.

Unless Blizzard creates clear cut barriers (like they did with PvP until Legion), the raiding population below mythic will further dwindle due to M+.

[Erolian]

Remember what happened to 10man heroic? They didn't just aliente those, they told them to recruit 10 people, fuse with another guild or fuck off.
I would argue that the total amount of 10man heroic raiders was greater than the total amount of 25man raiders by the end of MoP.

Unless you're a Mythic raider, M+ effectively replaces raiding, that's why heroic guilds seem to vanish, because there is no incentive for anyone to set Heroic as their endgame - you get your loot from M+ already (or even freaking WQ's right now).

More game modes sounds fine on paper, but if all game modes award the same type of currency in similiar quality, you'll sooner or later see people gravitating towards a path of least resistance.
M+ is the path of least resistance because it requires less people, we are repeating history here right now.

In a social game such as WoW, you'll see that people basically face a choice, attempt to pull through and keep going or go with the masses, most people choose the latter.
The point is, you need other people to play with you, if you have trouble finding people to raid heroic in an organized manner because M+ basically feeds them their gear, you'll have difficulties to stem a roster that isn't basically a pug raid.

Unless Blizzard creates clear cut barriers (like they did with PvP until Legion), the raiding population below mythic will further dwindle due to M+.

I also remember how many raiders and players prefer to play in smaller groups with people they actually want to be around. Obviously its easier to create groups when they're smaller but that isn't the only reason so many people like it and gravitate towards those modes and directions when Blizzard allows it.

Maybe if raiding were actually fun and enjoyable to more it would be more popular. Changing loot structure doesn't really do anything but try to convince a bunch of people who clearly don't really like raiding that much to show up and participate

[Dakara]

I also remember how many raiders and players prefer to play in smaller groups with people they actually want to be around. Obviously its easier to create groups when they're smaller but that isn't the only reason so many people like it and gravitate towards those modes and directions when Blizzard allows it.

Maybe if raiding were actually fun and enjoyable to more it would be more popular. Changing loot structure doesn't really do anything but try to convince a bunch of people who clearly don't really like raiding that much to show up and participate

But this is exactly what they did by introducing Mythic+

I don't like my endgame revolving around around spamming 5 man content. I prefer to Farm the current raid on raid nights, but as a Heroic only guild, once we have AOTC the better gearing path is in M+ not the raids.

This also creates the problem of guild Cliques, where there's 1 or 2 groups of players who always run together and push keys and the rest rely on OS tanks or PUGS.

[Erolian]

But this is exactly what they did by introducing Mythic+

I don't like my endgame revolving around around spamming 5 man content. I prefer to Farm the current raid on raid nights, but as a Heroic only guild, once we have AOTC the better gearing path is in M+ not the raids.

This also creates the problem of guild Cliques, where there's 1 or 2 groups of players who always run together and push keys and the rest rely on OS tanks or PUGS.

That's happening in your heroic guild because Blizzard is rewarding players heavily for doing extremely low (10) key levels and the difficulty/reward curve is broken. That should be fixed. 10 should not be where the gear scaling stops nor where actual quality items come from. People should have to be doing keys that reflect a balancing point similar to that of other content for similar rewards. Basically when the new seasons start, despite rebalancing, doing a 10 is very easy. That should not give mythic quality loot at the end of the week. If you want that you should be gearing and progressing through the season until you reach a point somewhere around 20 much like you would finish heroic the first week and move into mythic raiding if you were going that route. They just don't allow a real progression curve in M+ when it comes to how people are rewarded and its stupid. That is the real balancing issue outside of content being fun or engaging. The problem isn't that M+ is rewarding its that the bar for it being rewarding is so low that people can just opt out of everything else at nearly any skill level and loot gear like they're doing real end game content before they actually get to key levels that could be considered that.

The point I was getting at with my other post is that many players will always gravitate towards smaller scale content because its simply more enjoyable to them than dealing with 19 other players assuming you can still progress in that manner. I think that is actually okay and is something the game should support. Basically if you don't like raiding you shouldn't need to raid to push high M+ and vice versa but for whatever reason they don't even try to make those parallel gearing paths make any sense alongside each other

[Dakara]

That's happening in your heroic guild because Blizzard is rewarding players heavily for doing extremely low (10) key levels and the difficulty/reward curve is broken. That should be fixed. 10 should not be where the gear scaling stops nor where actual quality items come from. People should have to be doing keys that reflect a balancing point similar to that of other content for similar rewards. Basically when the new seasons start, despite rebalancing, doing a 10 is very easy. That should not give mythic quality loot at the end of the week. If you want that you should be gearing and progressing through the season until you reach a point somewhere around 20 much like you would finish heroic the first week and move into mythic raiding if you were going that route. They just don't allow a real progression curve in M+ when it comes to how people are rewarded and its stupid. That is the real balancing issue outside of content being fun or engaging. The problem isn't that M+ is rewarding its that the bar for it being rewarding is so low that people can just opt out of everything else at nearly any skill level and loot gear like they're doing real end game content before they actually get to key levels that could be considered that.

The point I was getting at with my other post is that many players will always gravitate towards smaller scale content because its simply more enjoyable to them than dealing with 19 other players assuming you can still progress in that manner. I think that is actually okay and is something the game should support. Basically if you don't like raiding you shouldn't need to raid to push high M+ and vice versa but for whatever reason they don't even try to make those parallel gearing paths make any sense alongside each other

Agreed on the scaling. Should require a +15-20 to cap the weekly chest at the current ilvl rewards.

The problem is, players will always gravitate one way or another as it's impossible to balance. This is why I feel the M+ rewards need to be lowered (or added to higher keys) to keep raids relevant.

Technically, you could spam M 0's and LFR hoping to put together a 400+ TF set. While I'm sure some people do that, players don't "gravitate" to it because the chances of getting multiple 20+ TF drops is slim to none. If (for example) M10's dropped 390 gear with a 400 cache, people would still spam them in hopes of a TF but Heroic raids would stay more relevant and/or more HC guilds might push into Mythic. Titan Residuum would still allow the purchase of 415 AZ gear.

For those who push higher keys, the current rewards (400 completion, 410 cache) could be bumped up to +15's.

As you said, the curve is the problem not M+ itself.

[Skitamine]

Could we please get back beautiful class sets ? :w

[Th3Scourge]

currently on the ptr a 10 is about the same difficulty somewhere between a 15 and 17. i think they may be compensating for the power creep.

Yeah I know they increase the difficulty by roughly ~30% but i think they could also increase the scaling to +15 for similar level loot to make it less lucrative. Especially at the start of the season, teams can still breeze through +10 keys and gear up by bypassing raid content. Still rewarding, just not as fast

[calanos]

Yeah I know they increase the difficulty by roughly ~30% but i think they could also increase the scaling to +15 for similar level loot to make it less lucrative. Especially at the start of the season, teams can still breeze through +10 keys and gear up by bypassing raid content. Still rewarding, just not as fast

100% the chest should top out requiring a 15. 10s early in the patch are pretty similar to at least early to mid heroic bosses in difficulty id say (not like heroic is hard) but by the time you have been gearing for a couple weeks 10s become a joke for decent players. I am fine with 10s dropping the equivalent of 400 loot, but I think gear from the chest should clearly scale up to almost-mythic at 15, not 10. I don't even bother with harder keys this xpack because it isnt worth it for anything but IO.

[glowpipe]

Could we please get back beautiful class sets ? :w

my vote is on this guy/gal!
Altho. im not sure if this is the place to talk about it

[Th3Scourge]

100% the chest should top out requiring a 15. 10s early in the patch are pretty similar to at least early to mid heroic bosses in difficulty id say (not like heroic is hard) but by the time you have been gearing for a couple weeks 10s become a joke for decent players. I am fine with 10s dropping the equivalent of 400 loot, but I think gear from the chest should clearly scale up to almost-mythic at 15, not 10. I don't even bother with harder keys this xpack because it isnt worth it for anything but IO.

That's the problem. Because 10's are easier than new heroic raid content, it devalues raid content rewards.

[Swnem]

Could we please get back beautiful class sets ? :w

Pretty much this as part of it.

The problem isn't that mythic+ is too good, it's that raids got exposed for their effort/reward ratio. Mythic+ isn't the symptom, it's the consequence. Killing mythic+ won't change the fact that raiding is dying, and will continue to die. It just adds the people that were still subbed cause of mythic+ to potencially leave aswell.

I wish these dumb devs could understand that their raiding and guild systems are what needs reforms. But, as always they just hide on their little inner bubble chanting "lalala" and try to fix a mistake with another mistake.

[Kaver]

I don't know why +10 is the limit for gear. They could make it so +15 or +20 gives Mythic raid level gear in the weekly chest. That way raiders are still getting more loot if they're pushing and clearing Mythic and people pushing M+ still get a reward for pushing keys to high levels, but they'd only get 1 piece of Mythic level gear a week. So it would still take weeks of farming to get a full set of mythic raid level gear from M+ (likely months before you got one piece for each slot) at which point it'd be faster to just do the raids. That way people still have motivation to push keys, raiders still get top level gear faster and people who don't enjoy raiding still have some high skill content to aim for.

I agree with this. The weekly chest should give Mythic grade gear but you should finish at least a +15 key to get it. +10 is way to easy.

[cparle87]

This is going to be awkward but destiny 2 not only has more players than bfa (by a factor of 2-3, don’t forget consoles) but it will absolutely outlive wow bfa.

Wow itself will outlive it, sure, but at this point it’s like someone in a coma they won’t let go.

As for wow bfa, no. Destiny will outlive that by years and has more players, interest, and a brighter future than bfa.

Why do you think atvi stock shredded 25% of its value when they lost destiny to bungie? Billions of dollars gone.

Wow bfa cant even outperform wow of 15 years ago lol even during their mdi’s They don’t have a single piece of bfa content with a positive like/dislike ratio on YouTube but yeah, sure, it’s doing ‘swell’

Considering BFA is only going to last another year and Destiny is... well itself. It's pretty much a foregone argument that Destiny is going to outlive BFA. You're trying to brag that a standalone game is going to outlive an xpac with a definitive shelf life.

[Porcodio]

Considering BFA is only going to last another year and Destiny is... well itself. It's pretty much a foregone argument that Destiny is going to outlive BFA. You're trying to brag that a standalone game is going to outlive an xpac with a definitive shelf life.

And the 9.0 could be a BfA 2.0 bringing the same flaws of BfA, so it is too early dismissing it.

[cparle87]

And the 9.0 could be a BfA 2.0 bringing the same flaws of BfA, so it is too early dismissing it.

The guy I was talking to was bragging about how destiny's future, twitch numbers, views, whatever shit metric he uses to talk about how much he hates BFA will outshine BFA for years to come. I was going to him, "like duh, BFA will be over in another year."