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  1. #81
    Stood in the Fire Popastique's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Of course Blizzard would start designing WoW around twitch.tv and streamers. After all, they are the ones who create free publicity and hype for Blizzard's products and get them record sales... but is this publicity really free?

    Nope, it comes at a very steep price for the entire game design of WoW.

    Some things, by their nature, are fun to experience firsthand but not very fun to watch. Building a character for slower-paced, more strategic combat is not very fun to watch. DHs zooming around at 200% speed and spamming "insta gib" abilities, however, entertains people.

    Raids by their design should not be very fun to watch since they require lots of repetition and wipes to complete. Moreover, they have a lot of individual downtime as different players handle different mechanics. Blizzard's solution? Design raids around twitch.tv. One shot raid wipe personal responsibility run rampant all for the sake for satisfying people who want to spam "LOL POGGERS WHAT A LOSER" in chat when someone inevitably fuck ups and wipes the raid. Why bother designing clever mechanics when bosses can just be series of one shot mechanics being spammed in every direction?

    There's more. M+ is without a doubt tailored to please the speedrunning community which is, not surprisingly, also found on twitch.tv.

    But worst of all? Twitch.tv breeds rabid fanboy culture and it seeps into the actual game. When was the last time you played a raid or a m+ without some 12 year old kid spamming "POGGERS OMEGALUL YIKES SCUFFED" all run long?

    Stop designing the game for idiotic twitch culture and you'll see immediate improvement.
    Smoking weed is bad, stop doing it ...

  2. #82
    If blizzard listened to twitch personalities the garbage we call titanforging wouldn’t be in the game anymore. We’d have vendors back, we’d have better class design, we’d have some RPG elements added back that got removed in the game of QoL but only watered down the game, etc. Streamers aren’t responsible for what we have now, they’ve been arguing against what we have since legion and the BfA beta.

    When BfA was announced the usual hype surrounding expansions just wasn’t there, at least not on these forums. There was way more hype for argus and 7.3 than BfA honestly, a lot of people were trashing on the name and the blizzcon presentation in the pre patch thread. The hype just didn’t feel as strong as previous expansions. Then we got into the beta and it was pretty obvious how things were gonna turn out especially when they didn’t allow us to test azerite until the very end of the expac even though it was supposed to fill the gaps and play a big role in class design. People were very apprehensive when blizzard said they weren’t going to be working much on class design but they just removed 3 huge spec specific gameplay systems, many were skeptical about this.
    Last edited by Taeldorian; 2019-06-11 at 03:19 PM.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    The amount of force needed for the facepalm could litteraly kill me. Takes a lot of effort not to hurt myself when I read your texts here.
    So, you are saying I am right, could not formulate anything that could be considered original thought, and that is the best you could come up with.... a typed out facepalm meme? /sigh

  4. #84
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo12 View Post
    But media is used as mass propaganda and conditioning.
    It's a tool that is what you make of it/want it to be.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    If blizzard listened to twitch personalities the garbage we call titanforging wouldn’t be in the game anymore. We’d have vendors back, we’d have better class design, we’d have some RPG elements added back that got removed in the game of QoL but only watered down the game, etc. Streamers aren’t responsible for what we have now, they’ve been arguing against what we have since legion and the BfA beta.
    And we would be at WoD & MoP point with trillions of problems about that, searching for another game 'cause "there is nothing else to do here" happened like 3 months after launch. Basically we would go back to old problems while not solving anything.

    A little about class design. Lets be honest, blizzard is incapable of providing good class design because they just don't play the game. And no, class design WASN'T better before. It never reached a point where I could say I am satisfied with all of specializations. But that is the point.

    There are people who like current demo and absolutely despise previous iteration - in my eyes this is THE best spec in the game, while it was THE worst one.
    However I have seen completely opposite opinions.
    Situation where everyone is satisfied with every possible spec is impossible to achieve.

    Long story short, classes (specs) are quite diverse, and blizzard did a good job on that one.
    Numerical balance is possible if they ever hire some pro math bachelor as currently there is no competent person like this on their team.
    Utility balance is also possible by simply not having a single unique utility in some class. But people screamed the classes are the same and there is nothing unique about them. Welp, then we have this mess where only 3-4 classes are viable.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    If Blizzard listened to their own content creators this game would be in a much better state than it is now.

    Remember Preach's 30 minute video detailing and outlining why Azerite would suck balls. Then literally everything he said came true?


    It's funny watching the fanboys with stockholm syndrome try to find any excuse as to why their abusive Papa Blizz keeps beating them.
    Well shit, one fucking streamer said it was true so every single living human being with a pulse must agree with him!

    It's not Stockholm Syndrome. It's your inability to concede some people like shit you don't like. And if we're being completely fucking honest, a mentality like yours is far more toxic to the community than any single streamer ever could be.

  7. #87
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Nope, nope, we're NOT doing the streamer witch hunt on retail as well as on Classic.
    9.0 Speculation Thread #1 Leakbuster

    Finally guessed the expansion right for the first time since MoP.

    Retail - Wyrmrest Accord (A) | Classic - Bloodsail Buccaneers (A) | FFXIV - Crystal Datacenter

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Maudib View Post
    When most of the streamers are blaming Blizzard for turning such a beloved game into what is now BfA? Even very apparent shills like Bellular have finally had to speak out against just how bad the game has gotten. Even when he tries to bring up something positive, you see it through gritting teeth.

    Streamers stream what people want to see... which is why Classic has WAY outperformed BfA in viewers.

    No sir. Blame Ion... and the other lead developers before him. They alone have made the decisions that have turned WoW into an ARPG.
    Pretty much this. Ion has no love for the player base and will continue to pump out crap as long as it pleases the higher ups.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Lmao what? They're not designing it around twitch streamers.

    They've been designing it around Twitter users who pay $15 a month to play battle pets, the "micro-holidays", and use the stupid fucking selfie cam with Twitter integration.

    Why? Because they're the only ones Blizz cares to recognize as their "community" because they're the only ones who give any sort of positive feedback.

    It's also who they've been hiring to steadily replace their old, real devs. Go take a look at some of their devs on Twitter. They make my skin crawl from all the cringe.
    I don't get the whole micro holiday thing..there's no reason to really do them imho.
    The hunter hoe with the least beloe.

  9. #89
    Scarab Lord Oneirophobia's Avatar
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    When was the last time you played a raid or a m+ without some 12 year old kid spamming "POGGERS OMEGALUL YIKES SCUFFED" all run long?
    I have never once seen this, even running LFR pretty frequently for mog colour variety. Is it just me? Am I having real good luck?

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    That was but one example. But sure, set your strawman up champ.

    Literally every prominent WoW streamer/content creator was reporting on how bad Azerite and Class Design was. Alongside all the plebs reporting in the Beta forums too.

    Fuck them all right? Ion is a literal genius.


    Or is it possibly your addiction to a game that's negatives currently far outweigh it's positives. That you'll literally try to find any excuse you can to deny this fact?


    June 2019 and people are still in denial that BfA sucks. Oh boy...
    Jesus fucking Christ. I don't even know where to begin here. First, at no point was anything I wrote a strawman argument. (Side note: It seems you have an obsession with this concept but I digress.) Second, accusing people of having an abusive relationship with Blizzard because they have the audacity to not hate the fucking game is a pretty offensive opinion and you can't possibly expect a rational human being to just accept that at face value. Finally -- and this is probably the most important piece of what I'm getting at -- I'm not even defending Blizzard or the state of BfA right now. I just hate seeing the same stupid fucking negativity in thread after thread backed up with entirely anecdotal evidence and shit like, "but my friends list is empty and all 7 people I talked to on Discord agree with me." Like, fuck dude, I get it. Hating WoW on MMO-C grants you ascension to a super elite club of like-minded galaxy brained mega geniuses but it gets really, really fucking old to keep seeing the same idiotic "Blizzard shill" rhetoric being thrown about any time anybody dares to have an opinion of the game that is anything other than "BfA sux lel."

    The game has issues, yes, but how in the fuck are we ever going to get anywhere if all we ever do is chastise other people for finding enjoyment in a fucking video game where we slay internet dragons for imaginary loot? Ugh.

  11. #91
    Its NA culture based on profit first.. and then quality far second.. so they release anything thats new without any QA for just profits cause ppl will buy it.. you can see that as example in rumors that they are working on overwatch 2.. even though overwatch is fine
    Last edited by Ianus; 2019-06-12 at 12:19 AM.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwack View Post
    It's a tool that is what you make of it/want it to be.
    It really a bad tool in the hands of the wrong guy considering the fact that horde mentality is real.

  13. #93
    Legendary! Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    When was the last time you played a raid or a m+ without some 12 year old kid spamming "POGGERS OMEGALUL YIKES SCUFFED" all run long?
    I've literally never seen this happen.

    WoW's design failures aren't because of twitch, they are because much of the original dev team has moved on to other projects... It's a mostly different dev team, and IIRC most of the new people were from Diablo 3.

    The shift in design philosophy isn't in reaction to an outside source, it's because the game is literally being developed by different people now... And their design philosophy was evident in their previous game (D3), long before they ever got to WoW.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2019-06-12 at 02:06 AM.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Of course Blizzard would start designing WoW around twitch.tv and streamers. After all, they are the ones who create free publicity and hype for Blizzard's products and get them record sales... but is this publicity really free?

    Nope, it comes at a very steep price for the entire game design of WoW.

    Some things, by their nature, are fun to experience firsthand but not very fun to watch. Building a character for slower-paced, more strategic combat is not very fun to watch. DHs zooming around at 200% speed and spamming "insta gib" abilities, however, entertains people.

    Raids by their design should not be very fun to watch since they require lots of repetition and wipes to complete. Moreover, they have a lot of individual downtime as different players handle different mechanics. Blizzard's solution? Design raids around twitch.tv. One shot raid wipe personal responsibility run rampant all for the sake for satisfying people who want to spam "LOL POGGERS WHAT A LOSER" in chat when someone inevitably fuck ups and wipes the raid. Why bother designing clever mechanics when bosses can just be series of one shot mechanics being spammed in every direction?

    There's more. M+ is without a doubt tailored to please the speedrunning community which is, not surprisingly, also found on twitch.tv.

    But worst of all? Twitch.tv breeds rabid fanboy culture and it seeps into the actual game. When was the last time you played a raid or a m+ without some 12 year old kid spamming "POGGERS OMEGALUL YIKES SCUFFED" all run long?

    Stop designing the game for idiotic twitch culture and you'll see immediate improvement.
    I agree with you 100%. Mythic + is the worst thing ever added to the game, but it sounds like its days are numbered!

  15. #95
    Blame yourself, or god.

    Points if you know where that's from!
    Either way, you can blame popular things for being hammered home in the game.

    If they aren't interesting to you, blame whomever you want, but its been this way for a long time now, and realistically most things aren't that different than they ever were.

    But I guess this is just another thread comparing things to Classic, 15 years ago design huh?
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  16. #96
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo12 View Post
    It really a bad tool in the hands of the wrong guy considering the fact that horde mentality is real.
    People are fallible and while nobody is perfect you can strive to be critical of the news you subject yourself to while asking for unbiased reporting that leaves people informed and to think for themselves instead of telling them what to think. People are easily impressionable, especially the young and the vulnerable, it's an uphill battle but one that is worth fighting and worthy of sacrifice by being the change you want to see. Godspeed.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Maudib View Post
    So, you are saying I am right, could not formulate anything that could be considered original thought, and that is the best you could come up with.... a typed out facepalm meme? /sigh
    No, I'm saying you're being ridiculous and wrong.

  18. #98
    Problems started in WoD development, which was way before Twitch exploded and streaming became a thing.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Sosua View Post
    They took a game, that required a bit of planning, A LOT of time to accomplish things, had value in professions, and changed it to a game that caters to kids and casuals. THAT's what broke WoW.
    Ehrm, no. First of all, the "WoW is getting too casual" narrative has been here since the very release of the game and BfA has nothing to do with it. In fact, I believe the reason to this more casual game design approach is much of the opposite. Compared to most other games, WoW enjoys a BY FAR older demographic now. I can safely assume that 80% of the player base, in EU at least, is 25+ years old from what I've experienced recently. Only a small portion of older players can nowadays actually afford 6 hours+ grinds on a daily basis, unlike teens who have plenty of time (as we did back then). So, in order to keep this core audience in the game, Blizz progressively makes the game more and more accessible, so it requires less time to enjoy the end-game content.
    Classic, however, will be a different story. Blizzard is targeting two main audiences with this release: loyal existing/returning players (which all should be at least 30 years old now) and younger players who didn't have a chance to experience the legendary game they have heard so much about. I believe that what will happen is that the initial influx of nostalgic old players will flush away in couple of months after the sore realization that their life responsibilities are incompatible with the grind pace of Classic and will return/switch to retail. While younger players who actually have time for Classic and all its grind will become a core audience there, to everyone's surprise.

  20. #100
    I really don't think twitch is part of the problem, but I do wonder the impact of arena seasons and if the push towards a esport didn't actually cause some of the issues we are seeing. IE, classes. They are in an overall bad shape and blizz has been basically stalling since the beginning of the expac. I think they said at one point they don't want to change class mid season or something / middle of expansion to not screw everyone in that scene.

    The game IS indeed in a very sorry state. I feel like blizz is very silent since the big layoff too. I left back in november and I honestly don't regret anything. I also feel like it's in snowball mode. A friend of mine told me she barely even plays anymore. Most people she knew stopped playing and as such she is losing interest too. She will play classic when it launches but that's about it. Funny how classic is coming at the lowest point of WoW. Maybe they hope to get people hooked on it to forget that they are still paying the monthly fee while they use that money for the next expansion. After all, the team on classic is probably a fraction of retail team. So if classic brings back 1 million sub for a few months, that's a big win for them.

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