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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    In isolation, Baine being angry at Garrosh and not trusting him to assist because of his father's death is rational. Him not calling upon Sylvanas or the blood elves because they're on the other end of the planet also makes sense. The problem isn't even that he then builds closer ties with Jaina than he does with the Horde. Rather, the problem is when the conflict that would arise from Jaina then staging an invasion of tauren lands is never tackled at all except for him to go through the stuff we've already discussed a million times, exiling my own people, natch. In isolation, it's a character beat that makes sense. In total, it's another symptom of how weak and hypocritical this character we're meant to like is and how immunized he is against all consequence because everyone will bend over backwards to ignore the circumstances of his actions.
    The thing is, he didn't dismiss the idea of asking Sylvanas for help because of the distance. That's the Blood Elves. Which immediately begs the question why is the distance such a problem in regards to Blood Elves when it's not mentioned for the Forsaken. Sure, Forsaken are a bit closer to Kalimdor than the Blood Elves, but it's not a colossal difference. The reason he dismissed the Forsaken was that they were under Kor'kron observation. Except that only applied to Undercity and in other parts of their kingdom the Forsaken for the most part did what they pleased as always.

    And the whole issue of distance and pretty much any other pitiful excuse Baine had in order to justify crawling to the Alliance instead of asking his actual allies evaporates the moment the help he accepted from Jaina ended up being money. Blood Elves could have simply teleported him the money, transporting a bunch of chests with coins wouldn't have been complicated. Same applies to any other race. The Forsaken sure as shit could have kept such chests away from Kor'kron's view and then teleported them to him too.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2019-06-13 at 01:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    I hope they leave it as it is and not change anything but maybe show us more details in specific scenarios. Doubt they will change huge parts, wouldn't see a reason to do so
    I can give you a good reason, because current writers are so full of themselves that they think they can make it better.

  3. #83
    Pit Lord Maljinwo's Avatar
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    So, reading the respones I realized new dreadful changes they would make:

    -Changing the Night Elves approach to the orcs, making Grom the initial aggressor
    -Changing human characters to paint them as victims (Garithos, Daelin)
    -More and more Jaina
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    So, reading the respones I realized new dreadful changes they would make:

    -Changing the Night Elves approach to the orcs, making Grom the initial aggressor
    -Changing human characters to paint them as victims (Garithos, Daelin)
    -More and more Jaina
    The last one is a given, since Golden cant resist to self-insert herself constantly into the story.

  5. #85
    Pit Lord Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    The last one is a given, since Golden cant resist to self-insert herself constantly into the story.
    I often wonder. Which one is the self-insert?
    Jaina? Anduin? Baine?
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  6. #86
    I really didn't play it for the story back in the day, I may actually read/ listen to it now. I loved the gameplay.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    I often wonder. Which one is the self-insert?
    Jaina? Anduin? Baine?
    Any character someone dislikes instantly is a mary-sue, so the answer probably is "all of the above"

  8. #88
    The Unstoppable Force
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    What?! When did they retconned that?
    12-14 years ago....

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  9. #89
    Scarab Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaneOstrich View Post
    Any character someone dislikes instantly is a mary-sue, so the answer probably is "all of the above"
    Well, Anduin and BfA Jaina ARE Mary Sue's, no matter how you slice it. As for Baine, it's a stellar example of a character who writers try so hard to make it "likeable", that they achieve exactly the opposite.
    "The heart of the Horde" = Alliance-approved Horde

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    I often wonder. Which one is the self-insert?
    Jaina? Anduin? Baine?
    Jaina is the self insert, Anduin is the child she never had and Baine is a narative tool to show everyone how they should view Humans.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    12-14 years ago....
    Damn, didn't know about it. Time to re-read a few things I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Jaina is the self insert, Anduin is the child she never had and Baine is a narative tool to show everyone how they should view Humans.
    And Sylvanas is her friend that stole her first boyfriend.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Well, Anduin and BfA Jaina ARE Mary Sue's, no matter how you slice it. As for Baine, it's a stellar example of a character who writers try so hard to make it "likeable", that they achieve exactly the opposite.
    We have wildly differing views on what a mary sue is, fair enough.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    And Sylvanas is her friend that stole her first boyfriend.
    I dont think she is writing Sylvanas at all, that dishonor goes to Afrasiabi.

    Thats why only about 15% of the book is about her and 80% is about Anduin.

  14. #94
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    I still don't think "self-inserts" can be retroactive. Every author puts some of themselves, often a lot of themselves, in their writing - it's an unavoidable part of the process. But that doesn't make a given character a self-insert, you need a bit more scaffolding than that. And since almost all of WoW's characters have had multiple authors with multiple footprints on them, you also have integrate that into your own presentation of the character (which every author achieves with mixed results depending on their relative skill).
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I still don't think "self-inserts" can be retroactive. Every author puts some of themselves, often a lot of themselves, in their writing - it's an unavoidable part of the process. But that doesn't make a given character a self-insert, you need a bit more scaffolding than that. And since almost all of WoW's characters have had multiple authors with multiple footprints on them, you also have integrate that into your own presentation of the character (which every author achieves with mixed results depending on their relative skill).
    This would work if we werent talking about Blizzard writing team, those people are petty and spiteful.

    By the way, how many Jaina cinematics written by AMAZING Christie Golden do we need to convince you?

  16. #96
    I hope for two major changes:

    - updated Quel'thalas and Silvermoon missions (visuals and major lore characters like Lor'themar and KT being present or at least a cameo);
    - revamped Suramar and Broken Isles so it looks as in WoW (Tomb's model being exactly the same as in WoW + maybe an easter egg with Suramar somewhere in the bubble, unreachable for the player, etc);

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by SaneOstrich View Post
    We have wildly differing views on what a mary sue is, fair enough.
    List me one flaw that Anduin has that the narrative acknowledges or one instance where the story has treated him as being wrong:

    Spoiler: You can't. The God-King is flawless and all who disagree with him will either come around or become cartoon villains to be disposed of.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  18. #98
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    This would work if we werent talking about Blizzard writing team, those people are petty and spiteful.

    By the way, how many Jaina cinematics written by AMAZING Christie Golden do we need to convince you?
    I don't think Blizzard's writing team are either petty or spiteful, really; they've made different decisions than I would've made certainly - and I think they've made some errors as well, but not maliciously. As for Jaina cinematics, I'm not really sure what you're referring to.
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    exactly what im expecting or worse.

    Like Grom going in a killing rampage before anything after They "totally warned and talk to then"

    And this is just the bottom, totally can see how "it was just Garithos who dislike the elves not alliance fault"
    In fact, Garithos represented humans of Lordaeron, not Stormwind, so it wasn't Alliance's fault. That said, Stormwind didn't help blood elves in anything.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I don't think Blizzard's writing team are either petty or spiteful, really;
    This entire expansion exists because Afrasiabi was pissed that Kosak killed his orc warchief. How is that not spiteful.

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