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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Yes but actually no View Post
    I absolutely loved the tropical tileset and now worry about this also. I could have sworn broken isles was retconned to never have actually been sunk, to explain why its noe a populated continent with a 10000 year old city of nelfs and a society of tauren who originated from azshara region.

    I cannot honestly see them removing the entire tropical tileset though as its also used for the echo isles so at worst case it will most likely be just the temple itself that sees (if any) changes.
    Its easy to retcon and claim that the Tomb's isle was bigger and it was Tal'Dranath Before cataclysm Hit and sunk Half of the isle and damaged the Tomb's complex.

    all of the broken isles is tattered with LITERAL broken and sunken terrain

  2. #142
    Scarab Lord Maxrokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Danuser wrote that one, and that the Mag'har have yet to feel the long rod of muh honor and are a callback to the Garrosh days are the only good thing I can say about both Danuser and the Horde's non-Zandalari roster in general.

    Afrasiabi is more in the noblesavage bend and even then Garrosh was always an imperfect vessel. Saurfang was always his sadorc of choice hence why in Stonetalon, which was otherwise a good zone you still had Garrosh calling back to Saurfang despite their icy relationship in general being a constant thing in all other appearances. I have no doubt that his Garrosh would be less Iron Horde with the bad guy tag removed and more a younger, balder version of current Saurfang.
    He did that in collaboration with Afrasiabi, there is an interview with both talking about that questline and the chance to see Yrel again.
    Last edited by Maxrokur; 2019-06-13 at 10:17 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    No, she is my waifu. Stop posting and delete this thread immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Voted Baine because... Well, Baine. Total nonsensical character, looks like World War II Italy, nobody really understands what role he's supposed to fill, not even himself

  3. #143
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxrokur View Post
    He did that in collaboration with Afrasiabi, there is an interview with both talking about that questline and the chance to see Yrel again.
    So Danuser wrote the quest and dialog working in collaboration with Afrasiabi? Do you have a link to this interview?
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

  4. #144
    Warchief Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    What was it, 10 no-names Golden invented for some shitty drama and accidentaly retconed Forsaken society because, as she admited, she doesnt know jackshit about them?
    While Golden did write that, the book had to be fact checked and approved by Blizzard

    While I have many gripes with Golden, I don't think we can put ALL the blame on her
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    What was it, 10 no-names Golden invented for some shitty drama and accidentaly retconed Forsaken society because, as she admited, she doesnt know jackshit about them?
    And Calia Menethil, Arthas' sister.

    I wouldn't call that no consequences. You asked what are the consequences, and I answered. Just because you don't care doesn't mean it didn't happen.

    The entirity of Warcraft's lore is built on little skirmishes becoming bigger issues. Hell, the entire reason the Horde still exists is because of Terenas' mercy. Had he followed the council of Greymane and Trollbane, the Horde would have been completely eliminated. No internment camps, no Thrall.

    Warcraft's entire PVP story is built on shitty drama attempts at peace-making. What's ironic is not seeing this from the beginning and thinking the story only recently started being this bad, when it's always been built on intentionally forced drama.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2019-06-13 at 10:43 PM.

  6. #146
    Scarab Lord Maxrokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    So Danuser wrote the quest and dialog working in collaboration with Afrasiabi? Do you have a link to this interview?
    Can't find the exact interview but I found the blizzcon one where he says the storylines are pushed by many people and wrathion is an example because there was 2 guys pushing for him to get some spotlight(guess those 2 aren't working in the company anymore), basically it's necessary 2 persons to write and move x lore event

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nGnT6WZbeI

    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    While Golden did write that, the book had to be fact checked and approved by Blizzard

    While I have many gripes with Golden, I don't think we can put ALL the blame on her
    Yep the cruel reality we must face is about Blizzard doesn't care about the lore, Kosak was the narrative director only because he was the director of a web-comic about WoW(probably cheap as well).

    Afrabiasi outright says the storylines are always in the loose and it depends on the passion of the writers/devs that want to push it.

    In moments like this I wonder why blizzard doesn't have some veteran writer of the industry as the team as the leader or hire some famous writer, after all Fromsoftware has the friggin George Martin in collaboration for their next game, blizzard has the resources to hire a heavy hitter like that
    Last edited by Maxrokur; 2019-06-13 at 11:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    No, she is my waifu. Stop posting and delete this thread immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Voted Baine because... Well, Baine. Total nonsensical character, looks like World War II Italy, nobody really understands what role he's supposed to fill, not even himself

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxrokur View Post
    In moments like this I wonder why blizzard doesn't have some veteran writer of the industry as the team as the leader or hire some famous writer, after all Fromsoftware has the friggin George Martin in collaboration for their next game, blizzard has the resources to hire a heavy hitter like that
    WoW's story doesn't suffer because of lack of writers or vision, it suffers because of the nature of the MMO format. A Faction War story simply doesn't work because the narrative is disjointed by player perspective.

    With such long-standing history of factions and so many reasons players have chosen to rally under the faction they did (whether they are in it for Blood and Honor, or just picked the faction with cute looking pink-skinned Elf chicks), you can't just have them have a war and have strong political drama without rooting for one side.

    Look at Game of Thrones. It's built on Starks being good guys, period. There's a whole slew of other nations, and people could have a personal favourite, but no one is going to want to be an inevitable villanous faction. We know who the good guys are, who the bad guys are. Imagine you rolled Lannister Season 1 because we you thought Tyrion was cool only to find out by Season 4 he's left the faction and by Season 7 is now fighting you. I mean we even see how much of a mess the end of the series was when they tried to conclude the whole thing by having to choose an inevitable winner. They spend so much time building up these heroes that when it becomes inevitable that 'inevitable winner' drama villainizes popular characters, they write themselves into a hole.

    I think what they're trying to do with Saurfang is admirable, but it's being very lost on the MMO format. MMO's simply don't have the narrative flexibility of a linear narrative. WC3 works because we get limited perspective of each faction, and we can then choose our favourites. It's not as if we happened to roll Humans and are stuck with them the entire campaign, being left to watch Uther die, to watch Garithos run the Alliance into the ground, and watch Jaina make the decision to kill her own Father. If that was our only perspective, fans would be outraged.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2019-06-13 at 11:45 PM.

  8. #148
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And Calia Menethil, Arthas' sister.
    She immediately got back up. Its as "no consequences" as you can get.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    She immediately got back up. Its as "no consequences" as you can get.
    Being the first undead of her kind, no consequence indeed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxrokur View Post
    In moments like this I wonder why blizzard doesn't have some veteran writer of the industry as the team as the leader or hire some famous writer, after all Fromsoftware has the friggin George Martin in collaboration for their next game, blizzard has the resources to hire a heavy hitter like that
    Christie Golden is pretty established writer, especially within the genre. And she wrote many star trek books for one thing. You might like her and her writing style but she's by no means a novice.

  10. #150
    Their writers should keep their crippled hands off of the story.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    I hope that christie will go nuclear on all dialogue and vastly improve many less glorious moments of W3.

    I would love to see few "hard" retcons. Like last mission of Nelf frozen throne campaign being about tyrande going all out SFC and not only not being saved, but saving both malfurion and illidan. At once.

    Also more jaina. Much more jaina. Like few 1 hour long cinematics full of her thought provoking internal dialogue.
    I would agree on more Jaina. But I would say not saving Tyrande period. A racist bitch, killed her few times with city raid groups just because I hate her so much

  12. #152
    Legendary! sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Do you have any hopes or fears for Reforged?
    u do know that wc3 'reforged' literally use exact same 20+ years old engine as wc3 right ? they flat out stated that during blizzcon
    so u expect way too much from wc3 editor, that will be way too much load, they already pushing it to limit in term of graphics

    I love ur idea, u don't want changes in anything, just improvements, sadly i don't expect anything from bobby kodick company, i mean he wants to keep his position as greediest human alive, he fired lot of employees to make his fat check even more fat

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SaneOstrich View Post
    Christie Golden is pretty established writer, especially within the genre. And she wrote many star trek books for one thing. You might like her and her writing style but she's by no means a novice.
    its the weird tone change, Christie Golden pre-bfa is nothing like post bfa, maybe change started in legion but she didn't write in legion (instead we got the worst writer in wow history, literally)
    Christie wrote best wow books, but before the storm was weird, since when sylvanas has 'pride' she is first female to lead? why that line ? we were cool and great she got lead, but that line... was disgusting political shoving in our throats
    she also forgot how Garrosh got gorehowl which was disappointing since she wrote that herself it the amazing Shattering.. so i don't know if she is forced that way of writing or she started to get full-head
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  13. #153
    Hm... What if.. They change the lore slightly to steer it in a different directions - whereas you still get the same story essentially, but leaves an opening for Warcraft 4 instead of having it develop into WoW? Or perhaps... dare I say it... Wow 2? Honestly, I'd be stoked for that idea. To have the world look completely different, game be different and basically start WoW from scratch in the new REFORGED universe from Wc3 where they take the best experiences and lessons from WoW and Reforge it all!

    I like the idea more and more the more I think about it..

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    its the weird tone change, Christie Golden pre-bfa is nothing like post bfa, maybe change started in legion but she didn't write in legion (instead we got the worst writer in wow history, literally)
    Christie wrote best wow books, but before the storm was weird, since when sylvanas has 'pride' she is first female to lead? why that line ? we were cool and great she got lead, but that line... was disgusting political shoving in our throats
    she also forgot how Garrosh got gorehowl which was disappointing since she wrote that herself it the amazing Shattering.. so i don't know if she is forced that way of writing or she started to get full-head
    This is mostly revisionism. While Before the Storm is the clearest example thus far, Tides of War and even Shattering in less obvious doses had her problems front and center. Morally impeccable protagonists that can do no wrong, caricatured baddies, using game scale as world scale, ignoring continuity and characterization to push personal favorites, no understanding of the Horde, etc. The central conceit of Tides of War after all was the faction war in Cataclysm not happening, nor did the grounds for it nor the conflict in Wrath of the Lich King. It was a novel length attempt to assassinate Garrosh's character and portray the destruction of Theramore as a heinous act that somewhat fails even in isolation but completely fails in the broader context of the story at that point.

    It's a shallow, black and white story, where Garrosh is meant to be pure evil and all the good guys disagree with him, Jaina is pure good and everyone we're meant to like gladly fall on their swords to benefit her and so forth. It's trash and the only thing that makes it better than Before the Storm is that it actually has a plot to speak of instead of being 90% filler. Also that it's a failure due to its context, whereas Before the Storm successfully did irreparable harm to the Forsaken and anyone who ever interacted with Anduin.

    @Maxrokur

    I read that Danuser claimed credit for it, but if so then I see what Verdugo's getting at. "Oh, this Garrosh is crap, but you should've seen my Honorable (TM) Garrosh ;_;"

    @Triceron

    Not quite, Baine would be very hawkish by Alliance character standards. Alliance heroes like Jaina and Anduin care very deeply about the people of the Horde and wouldn't attack them if they were sad even after the Horde set their lands on fire and enslave their people. Baine on the other hand is harsher than current Genn - any Horde that gets in the way of the supremacy of humans will be killed as soon as Baine can get his hands on them or be politically ostracized like those post-Taurajo tauren.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-06-14 at 01:15 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  15. #155
    Warchief Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    u do know that wc3 'reforged' literally use exact same 20+ years old engine as wc3 right ? they flat out stated that during blizzcon
    so u expect way too much from wc3 editor, that will be way too much load, they already pushing it to limit in term of graphics
    The engine has been upgraded, which allows them to use variant models with Demon Hunters, Death Knights, etc.
    I don't see giving lore figures an unique model as something wild
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  16. #156
    my hopes: I dont have any hope that any good comes out of changes.

    my fears: they will fuck up night elves and Arthas character(s) and story.

  17. #157
    Scarab Lord Maxrokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post

    @Maxrokur

    I read that Danuser claimed credit for it, but if so then I see what Verdugo's getting at. "Oh, this Garrosh is crap, but you should've seen my Honorable (TM) Garrosh ;_;"
    Yeah that kind of thing is very common, I though you catch that with Golden Jaina and Kosak being a fan of Yrel, he even twitted his ideal ending was Yrel killing Grommash and making a better draenor with the light and Durotan(guess that is still happening but without papa wolf)
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    No, she is my waifu. Stop posting and delete this thread immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Voted Baine because... Well, Baine. Total nonsensical character, looks like World War II Italy, nobody really understands what role he's supposed to fill, not even himself

  18. #158
    my hope was that they'll chnge literally nothing about the story, just update the grahpics and thats it.
    since we now know they wont alter the cinematics but will actually change parts the story, they will most likely fuck it up badly. yeah i know its supposed to tie in better with wow, but since most of wows story is trash, that cant be good
    cant wait to hear illidan talking in memes and on-liners only again -.-

  19. #159
    Pandaren Monk Void Fallen's Avatar
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    Flesh out the Void Elves more by putting Magister Umbric and perhaps some of his early followers into the Undead missions against the High Elves. This way they can use Reforged to further explore the ominous motivations of the Ren'dorei and show at the same time why Umbric was so desperate to use the Void to protect his people after the chaos caused by Arthas.

    They could EASILY do that by inserting a random High Elf priest unit in the Siege of Silvermoon mission called "Magister Umbric" and give him a few insightful lines that foreshadow the rise of the Ren'dorei. This will easily fix some of the problems that the Ren'dorei race faces, namely their lack of a solid backstory. And for the record, ALL races have many problems, certainly not just the Ren'dorei.
    The Void can be used to protect the world, not to destroy it. But as with any weapon or magic, one must learn to wield it correctly.

  20. #160
    my headcanon is that the original WC3: RoC and WC3: TFT are happening in another reality while WC3: Reforged is happening in current WoW reality.

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