WC3 Reforged Lore hopes

[Rhlor]

more blood elf lore!! I hope see rommath, lorthemar and liadrin

[Soon-TM]

It is highly doubtful the story of WC3 will change in any meaningful way - some details might be added to or embellished, pacing and continuity might get tightened up a bit, but the story itself will remain the same with no major changes.

In the World of Retconcraft, those are quite big words.

[Zandalariprelate]

I was thinking something more like the first meeting between Drogo and Dany. Baine was made an unwilling wife to an overly muscular, hunky centuar khan.

I though you were talking like certain scene of Berserker with a talking horse, oh well maybe we can explore more of the femine side of Baine like knitting, playing with blonde dolls and wishing to be rescued by a prince.

[Syegfryed]

yeah i kinda hope better dialogue with other races, they barely feel there, maybe some named characters instead of Grunt1 2 and 3

My fear still is how they gonna fuck up tons of old lore, many of those changes to make the horde can be the bad guys once again, i totally expect a lot of bullshit retcon with the night elves and grom

[matrix123mko]

They needed the tome from Dalaran for the summoning ritual, and Kel'thuzad was the one who knew what tome to gather. As for why the Legion didn't just invade with their ships, I don't have a good lore answer for you (I'd conjecture they needed some sort of beacon or the like on the world first, but I don't think they ever gave such an explanation).

Their ships weren't as good as Star Wars ones and they need to use portals to get somewhere, like Vindicaar. To fly to Azeroth Gul'dan needed to open portal on Thal'dranath to make the air more suspectible to teleportation.

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more blood elf lore!! I hope see rommath, lorthemar and liadrin

I hope they will get new architecture and more separate unit models.

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yeah i kinda hope better dialogue with other races, they barely feel there, maybe some named characters instead of Grunt1 2 and 3

My fear still is how they gonna fuck up tons of old lore, many of those changes to make the horde can be the bad guys once again, i totally expect a lot of bullshit retcon with the night elves and grom

I think they will retcon Grom to be warned by elves before getting attacked. Later on, they will either retcon Thrall out from protecting Hyjal or they will make him "betray" the night elves in Rexxar campaign.

[Eradicator3]

Personally I expect to see Thrall complaining that orcs have been the misunderstood victims all these years and defiling of Draenor and ravaging of EK were surely everyone elses's fault. Perhaps Grommash will cry and resent about how night elves were hostile towards him because they must have abandoned Ashenvale to the most peaceful and noble race in the world aka orcs who just accidently got into trouble

[Super Dickmann]

Don't expect them to have any empathy for the characters or to try to understand their motivations.

I don't know, I think they have a pretty good grasp of Baine's character. He cared objectively less about his dad's death and his city's takeover than he cared about the brother of his human masters being raised from the dead. After all his reaction to the former was to let the first party responsible go and be the second's defense attorney without even considering how his dad's poor decisions got him there. On the other hand, when it comes to those who dared harm Jaina's anointed bloodline they are killed on the spot.

[Verdugo]

What hopes, with Golden at the helm of the writi- sorry, retconing team, there can be no possible hopes. Only dread.

[SaneOstrich]

I'm sorry, but the amount of butthurt people stuck in the past in this thread is hilarious

That said, I doubt much will change. Just some minor points to clarify things that were left vague back then. That and some minor changes to improve the overall flow of the story.
The story still holds up well and doesn't need much changing.

[Astalnar]

Hopes for Golden's revisionism? That it didn't exist in the first place. If they wanted to just make it better quality graphics, I'd be all for it, but changes to the story rub me the wrong way.

[Feanoro]

I don't know, I think they have a pretty good grasp of Baine's character. He cared objectively less about his dad's death and his city's takeover than he cared about the brother of his human masters being raised from the dead. After all his reaction to the former was to let the first party responsible go and be the second's defense attorney without even considering how his dad's poor decisions got him there. On the other hand, when it comes to those who dared harm Jaina's anointed bloodline they are killed on the spot.

Couple things wrong with this reasoning.

1) Despite all bullshit claims of "We have planned years in advance!", there's more than enough evidence that any such plan is at best a rough sketch. Hell, we've seen them adjust BFA's story to accommodate the backlash, but it's simply the most glaring example. Add in their tendency to completely ignore past lore and characterizations for the story NOW, and Baine shifting positions makes sense. Does it make sense that he defends Garrosh? Not a damn bit, but that assumes consistent writing that considers the past, which again BFA proves simply ain't there.

2) With #1 firmly in mind, i.e. that future stories are always only vaguely connected to past and present, rewind back to Cata. This is where my comment about empathy comes in. Seeing a father die peacefully of old age causes lasting grief in normal cases, now how much more so in the case of a violent death? Asking Baine to simply dismiss his father's death objectively as his own fault (when it wasn't 100%) and simply work with his father's killer as if nothing happened is asking him to be a sociopath, someone who simply does not feel emotions like a healthy person. Complain that it's irrational or illogical for him to blame Garrosh, but you have to realize it's completely understandable for the character. Someone kills his father over a misunderstanding and he's supposed to just shrug and act like nothing happened?

This is one area where WoW really suffers from the idiotic faction war. Any attempt at depth, however poor, is sacrificed in the "Rawr my team good! Their team bad! You do anything but smash their team heads, you bad!" bullshit. Now, since I know the "herp derp you like him cause you bad team" crap is coming (hilarious how it continually proves my point about any nuance smashed to shit over tribalism), I don't like or dislike him. He's not a character I particularly care about at all, other than a case study in Blizz writing.

[Super Dickmann]

This is one area where WoW really suffers from the idiotic faction war. Any attempt at depth, however poor, is sacrificed in the "Rawr my team good! Their team bad! You do anything but smash their team heads, you bad!" bullshit. Now, since I know the "herp derp you like him cause you bad team" crap is coming (hilarious how it continually proves my point about any nuance smashed to shit over tribalism), I don't like or dislike him. He's not a character I particularly care about at all, other than a case study in Blizz writing.

To clarify my point, I actually don't have an issue with the Shattering or the Baine as defense attorney stint. They are the closest Baine has come to being a tolerable character. Still shit of course, but his dad got the worst of it in Shattering. While I agree that he's a case study of the problems of their hamhanded long-form narrative, the problem I see is different.

In isolation, Baine being angry at Garrosh and not trusting him to assist because of his father's death is rational. Him not calling upon Sylvanas or the blood elves because they're on the other end of the planet also makes sense. The problem isn't even that he then builds closer ties with Jaina than he does with the Horde. Rather, the problem is when the conflict that would arise from Jaina then staging an invasion of tauren lands is never tackled at all except for him to go through the stuff we've already discussed a million times, exiling my own people, natch. In isolation, it's a character beat that makes sense. In total, it's another symptom of how weak and hypocritical this character we're meant to like is and how immunized he is against all consequence because everyone will bend over backwards to ignore the circumstances of his actions.

Incidentally, that's also why he's at his most tolerable in War Crimes. Not only is him being the one to defend Garrosh his only pro-Horde action, but more importantly it's the only instance where his principles require him to do something he dislikes and also the only instance where his constant treachery is actually focused on when Tyrande brings up that he tipped Theramore off and the Horde actually does judge Baine for it and consider it a mistake. This is the one case where Baine "My life for the God-King" Bloodhoof has to bear personal cost, both internally by defending the man who killed his father and externally, by becoming the target of those around him for having defended Garrosh and for his own treason, for his actions. In all other cases, his supposed moral righteousness involves having those he's aligned with or responsible for suffer and die so he can feel good about his human friends liking him, all the while being treated by the narrative as a Saint who represents 'all that is best in the Horde'.

But that's just in that one book. His portrayal as a whole is a human footstool. The expansion where Peacechief Baine is killed by a tentacle trash mob so Gallywix can be Warchief and we can learn what it really means to be Horde can't come soon enough.

[SaneOstrich]

This is one area where WoW really suffers from the idiotic faction war. Any attempt at depth, however poor, is sacrificed in the "Rawr my team good! Their team bad! You do anything but smash their team heads, you bad!" bullshit. Now, since I know the "herp derp you like him cause you bad team" crap is coming (hilarious how it continually proves my point about any nuance smashed to shit over tribalism), I don't like or dislike him. He's not a character I particularly care about at all, other than a case study in Blizz writing.

This, in my eyes, is the biggest problem. The story was forced into an all out war, because of reasons. And it was up to the lore team to somehow let that make sense while the story wasn't set up for it -at all-. They try to make due, but no matter how hard you try it will always come off as convoluted.

[Syegfryed]

I think they will retcon Grom to be warned by elves before getting attacked. Later on, they will either retcon Thrall out from protecting Hyjal or they will make him "betray" the night elves in Rexxar campaign.

exactly what im expecting or worse.

Like Grom going in a killing rampage before anything after They "totally warned and talk to then"

And this is just the bottom, totally can see how "it was just Garithos who dislike the elves not alliance fault"

[Mehrunes]

Don't expect them to have any empathy for the characters or to try to understand their motivations.

Which part of the following post:

In a duel in accordance with Horde law. Issued by Cairne. Over bullshit. With Baine knowing Garrosh was played by Magatha even before he left Orgrimmar to see Thunder Bluff overrun by the Grimtotem.

was too complicated, exactly?

And even then, @Briselody's remark doesn't actually address Baine's refusal to approach the non-Garrosh leaders of the Horde even though he already knew some don't like him. So your amazing remark is a hit and miss on all fronts. As per usual.

[Feanoro]

Which part of the following post:


was too complicated, exactly?

And even then, @Briselody's remark doesn't actually address Baine's refusal to approach the non-Garrosh leaders of the Horde even though he already knew some don't like him. So your amazing remark is a hit and miss on all fronts. As per usual.

Go read what I wrote to Super Dickmann, if you're remotely interested in anything but thinly veiled personal attacks and "winning" arguments.

[Mehrunes]

With #1 firmly in mind, i.e. that future stories are always only vaguely connected to past and present, rewind back to Cata. This is where my comment about empathy comes in. Seeing a father die peacefully of old age causes lasting grief in normal cases, now how much more so in the case of a violent death? Asking Baine to simply dismiss his father's death objectively as his own fault (when it wasn't 100%) and simply work with his father's killer as if nothing happened is asking him to be a sociopath, someone who simply does not feel emotions like a healthy person. Complain that it's irrational or illogical for him to blame Garrosh, but you have to realize it's completely understandable for the character. Someone kills his father over a misunderstanding and he's supposed to just shrug and act like nothing happened?

This is one area where WoW really suffers from the idiotic faction war. Any attempt at depth, however poor, is sacrificed in the "Rawr my team good! Their team bad! You do anything but smash their team heads, you bad!" bullshit. Now, since I know the "herp derp you like him cause you bad team" crap is coming (hilarious how it continually proves my point about any nuance smashed to shit over tribalism), I don't like or dislike him. He's not a character I particularly care about at all, other than a case study in Blizz writing.

If you weren't too busy writing enlightened messages like "herp, derp" and instead devoted your time to the arduous task of following context, you'd have realized that in the post in regards to which your comment about empathy comes in Baine wasn't actually asked to "simply work with his father's killer as if nothing happened". He was asked, or more specifically criticized for not doing so, to work with the Horde leaders. Horde leaders, that as per the bit of the Shattering that was the subject, didn't even include Garrosh at all. Meaning that your comment about empathy comes in nowhere, because you have no clue about what you're talking about. Some "attempt at depth" that's totally not you making pointless jabs because of your own tribalism (because you're obviously devoid of that) that you got here.


Infracted.

[Feanoro]

If you weren't too busy writing enlightened messages like "herp, derp" and instead devoted your time to the arduous task of following context, you'd have realized that in the post in regards to which your comment about empathy comes in Baine wasn't actually asked to "simply work with his father's killer as if nothing happened". He was asked, or more specifically criticized for not doing so, to work with the Horde leaders. Horde leaders, that as per the bit of the Shattering that was the subject, didn't even include Garrosh at all. Meaning that your comment about empathy comes in nowhere, because you have no clue about what you're talking about. Some "attempt at depth" that's totally not you making pointless jabs because of your own tribalism (because you're obviously devoid of that) that you got here.

Considering I wasn't even talking to you, before you whine about context, you might try reading the posts I responded to. But since you've proved again you're only interested in flaming and baiting, back on ignore you go.

Infracted.

[Leodric]

I hope they leave it as it is and not change anything but maybe show us more details in specific scenarios. Doubt they will change huge parts, wouldn't see a reason to do so

[Mehrunes]

In isolation, Baine being angry at Garrosh and not trusting him to assist because of his father's death is rational. Him not calling upon Sylvanas or the blood elves because they're on the other end of the planet also makes sense. The problem isn't even that he then builds closer ties with Jaina than he does with the Horde. Rather, the problem is when the conflict that would arise from Jaina then staging an invasion of tauren lands is never tackled at all except for him to go through the stuff we've already discussed a million times, exiling my own people, natch. In isolation, it's a character beat that makes sense. In total, it's another symptom of how weak and hypocritical this character we're meant to like is and how immunized he is against all consequence because everyone will bend over backwards to ignore the circumstances of his actions.

The thing is, he didn't dismiss the idea of asking Sylvanas for help because of the distance. That's the Blood Elves. Which immediately begs the question why is the distance such a problem in regards to Blood Elves when it's not mentioned for the Forsaken. Sure, Forsaken are a bit closer to Kalimdor than the Blood Elves, but it's not a colossal difference. The reason he dismissed the Forsaken was that they were under Kor'kron observation. Except that only applied to Undercity and in other parts of their kingdom the Forsaken for the most part did what they pleased as always.

And the whole issue of distance and pretty much any other pitiful excuse Baine had in order to justify crawling to the Alliance instead of asking his actual allies evaporates the moment the help he accepted from Jaina ended up being money. Blood Elves could have simply teleported him the money, transporting a bunch of chests with coins wouldn't have been complicated. Same applies to any other race. The Forsaken sure as shit could have kept such chests away from Kor'kron's view and then teleported them to him too.