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  1. #241
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    But in vanilla you didn't even have enough quests to get around. Do you want to go back to that? You can't just praise the vanilla leveling stats without taking everything else into account.
    The second part is unsolvable imo. You have 15 years of quests to distribute into a leveling experience that shouldn't be the whole 15 years of questing. You will skip zones, it is just what it is.
    I mean you did (at least after they gave Horde more quests, which they did by 1.12) it was just a matter of you had to go seek out those quests. The game didn't hand you a breadcrumb every third quest saying "okay go up the road now for your next quest." Heck sometimes the game expected you to just... go seek out a new zone entirely to level in. Rather than having each neighboring zone be a precise 5 level jump.

    And besides, you can go back to some of it without going back to all of it. We're talking 9.0 in this thread, not 1.13.
    WoW: Wyrmrest Accord - Alliance
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  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    I mean you did (at least after they gave Horde more quests, which they did by 1.12) it was just a matter of you had to go seek out those quests. The game didn't hand you a breadcrumb every third quest saying "okay go up the road now for your next quest." Heck sometimes the game expected you to just... go seek out a new zone entirely to level in. Rather than having each neighboring zone be a precise 5 level jump.

    And besides, you can go back to some of it without going back to all of it. We're talking 9.0 in this thread, not 1.13.
    How do you go back to some of it tho? When they put in the level scaling system, they "accidentally" raised the leveling time by approx. 20%+. People were NOT happy. I wasn't.
    In vanilla you didn't have this many quests. Simple as that. Leveling doesn't only exist in "hours required to finish" aspect. We have thousands of quests now.

    Blizzard started to nerf the xp required to level in 2.3, while they added some quests into some zones. Just another thing to think about.

    So you have 122 zones (as someone mentioned), and only 60(?) levels to distribute that - after the squish. I believe there are thousands of quests by now. Either you accept that people will skip a lot of zones, or do something hideous to make people to visit most of the zones, and do most of the quests. I haven't leveled a single character after the scaling system, but I'd imagine people skip a lot of zones, just like before the scaling. This is how I meant unsolvable.
    Last edited by Lei; 2019-06-14 at 07:50 AM.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    you wont be going backwards though, literally nothing but the number will change.
    Except for the feeling of progression over 14 years.

  4. #244
    Guess its just a number squish. You will still need the same amount of experience to get to max lvl as now. Also, it will take the same amount of time. You will just not get lvls so fast.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    How do you go back to some of it tho? When they put in the level scaling system, they "accidentally" raised the leveling time by approx. 20%+. People were NOT happy. I wasn't.
    In vanilla you didn't have this many quests. Simple as that. Leveling doesn't only exist in "hours required to finish" aspect. We have thousands of quests now.

    Blizzard started to nerf the xp required to level in 2.3, while they added some quests into some zones. Just another thing to think about.

    So you have 122 zones (as someone mentioned), and only 60(?) levels to distribute that - after the squish. I believe there are thousands of quests by now. Either you accept that people will skip a lot of zones, or do something hideous to make people to visit most of the zones, and do most of the quests. I haven't leveled a single character after the scaling system, but I'd imagine people skip a lot of zones, just like before the scaling. This is how I meant unsolvable.
    The problem isn't having to level. The problem is that the current leveling system is boring as hell because of how the systems have been set up. You can already see it in the Nixxiom comparison from Classic to BFA leveling experience of 1 hour.

    In BFA when you level and new equipment you get from quests doesn't really matter as you already are overpowered from the get go and you're able to fight several enemies at once. You also automatically get new abilities and passives without even noticing that you have them. There is no real sense of discovery or accomplishment during the leveling phase of BFA. In Classic you literally start as some no name trash adventurer. You have nothing. Every piece of equip helps you to actually survive longer especially if you are a melee. Every new reward and every big enemy you killed give you a sense of "I've done something!"

    Did vanilla have problems? Sure, but they were of a different nature and I think the current problems are worse than what vanilla had.

    Also let me just give a quick overview of how many zones I visited the last time I leveled a character from 1-110.
    1-60 => three vanilla zones
    60-80 => two WotLK zones
    80-90 => one Cataclysm zone
    90-100 => 1,5 WoD zones
    10-110 => 2 Legion zones (I think)

    So overall I completed the quest content of 7,5 zones until I reached level 100. Do you think by cutting the numbers in half in terms of the amount of levels it would change all that much? Btw. with that character I visited each dungeon only once to complete the quests.

    Anyway the leveling has already been reduced to an absolute minimum in what you have to do and where you have to go. Just changing the numbers is not fixing the core problem.

  6. #246
    I'm all for a level squish just makes sense at this point especially for new interested players. It doesn't affect any of us veterans so i dont see the issue.

  7. #247
    Zero reason to do it. All they going to do is take away skills you have now and make you relearn them again..

  8. #248
    Stood in the Fire Bethanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane-Thunder-God View Post
    I'm all for a level squish just makes sense at this point especially for new interested players. It doesn't affect any of us veterans so i dont see the issue.
    New players already get a level 110 boost, so a leveling squish is of no benefit to them. The level squish only affects veteran players that want to level alts.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by nodlimax View Post
    The problem isn't having to level. The problem is that the current leveling system is boring as hell because of how the systems have been set up. You can already see it in the Nixxiom comparison from Classic to BFA leveling experience of 1 hour.

    In BFA when you level and new equipment you get from quests doesn't really matter as you already are overpowered from the get go and you're able to fight several enemies at once. You also automatically get new abilities and passives without even noticing that you have them. There is no real sense of discovery or accomplishment during the leveling phase of BFA. In Classic you literally start as some no name trash adventurer. You have nothing. Every piece of equip helps you to actually survive longer especially if you are a melee. Every new reward and every big enemy you killed give you a sense of "I've done something!"

    Did vanilla have problems? Sure, but they were of a different nature and I think the current problems are worse than what vanilla had.

    Also let me just give a quick overview of how many zones I visited the last time I leveled a character from 1-110.
    1-60 => three vanilla zones
    60-80 => two WotLK zones
    80-90 => one Cataclysm zone
    90-100 => 1,5 WoD zones
    10-110 => 2 Legion zones (I think)

    So overall I completed the quest content of 7,5 zones until I reached level 100. Do you think by cutting the numbers in half in terms of the amount of levels it would change all that much? Btw. with that character I visited each dungeon only once to complete the quests.

    Anyway the leveling has already been reduced to an absolute minimum in what you have to do and where you have to go. Just changing the numbers is not fixing the core problem.
    You can cut the levels by half and still add the xp required to level together. So
    atm:
    level 1 to level 2 = 400 XP (let's say, too lazy to look up the exact numbers)
    level 2 to level 3 = 600 xp

    after the squish:
    level 1 to level 2 = 1000 xp. Or 800 if you want a slight nerf. See?

    After the squish they could actually add meaningful rewards, because the itemlevels have to climb much less/player level. I'm intentionally ignoring the elephant in the room which is the idiotic gear hike on max level.

    But whatever you do, you can not put THOUSANDS of quests from vanilla to BfA on the players shoulders as mandatory to reach max level. It would never work. Inevitably, they have to let us skip stuff.
    They could revamp the zones again and actually cut the zone's story to half of what it's been, JUST to make players to go into most zones, but would that be good? So 15-20 quests / zone. I don't think so.

    Nixxiom is my least favorite (disliked even) wow youtuber. Can't watch his stuff, irritates me and I don't value what he says, seeing his past tendencies...
    Last edited by Lei; 2019-06-14 at 09:40 AM.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    Interesting idea

    I would kill to have more tw raids or just scaling raids
    GIVE ME MoP!!!!

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yeah by the end of the expansion we will be maybe around t16 numbers possibly t17

    That's just because blizzard can't handle the power creep caused by their need to constantly give players huge number buffs each tier

    - - - Updated - - -



    They could give players a magic hat that gives them their perfect gaming experience and ppl would still complain about the color of the hat

    LOL i almost spit my coffee out
    Member:BFA Alpha, Member since 2/7/2018

  11. #251
    So they are basically too lazy and cheap to put effort into fixing leveling and making it a fun and rewarding experience. Great.

  12. #252
    The real problem here is also that there's going to be absolutely no possible way to condense the story progression into a reasonable leveling process.

    I've been thinking about this all day at work. Even if you took TBC and WotLK out of the loop by making it optional timewalking or something, you'd still have the normal post-cata leveling zones of 1-60 worth of story, which could be blended straight into level-capped zones of cata(Hyjall, Vashj'ir, Deepholme, uldum, etc). Then in order to keep the story consistent, a player would have to go to MoP to learn why Garrosh went through the dark Portal into WoD, which leads into Legion and the aftermath of Sargeras stabbing Azeroth....causing the events of BfA.

    Trying to start a new player at any other point carries its own problems.

    MoP: Starting a new player with Pandaria is going to set an odd tone for the rest of the World of Warcraft experience.
    WoD: Starting with assaulting the Dark Portal and instantly becoming a commander with a garrison makes almost no sense.
    Legion: Other than the odd reason why a brand new character gets handed an artifact, this starting point has some potential.
    BfA: Same issue as Legion. Why is this new character getting the Heart of Azeroth.

    Basically Blizzard almost has to completely overhaul the entire progression and flow of the story, with hundreds of quests being changed to fall in line, in order to make the process of going from level 1 to 120(or whatever number it's crunched to) actually make sense to a new player. And they have to do it in such a way so that it doesn't take 100+ hours to progress through the story just to get to the current content.

    It's a bunch of mutually exclusive goals that I don't see any good way to reconcile outside of letting the player choose their starting point in the story, giving a short scenario or cutscene to explain why their character is a super-champion of the Horde/Alliance, and go from there.
    Sylvanas has left the Guild.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I've been thinking about this all day at work.
    At least someone is using their time at work in a productive manner.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazlofski View Post
    So they are basically too lazy and cheap to put effort into fixing leveling and making it a fun and rewarding experience. Great.
    They work fulltime with this game. I'm sure they've already thought of whatever mindblowing idea you have and came to the conclusion that a level squish would solve more problems than any other kneejerk band-aid fix

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Rathwirt View Post
    Yeah I should have gotten a screenshot, but I'm sure other people got that survey (I got mine about half an hour ago) so hopefully somebody else that got the survey can confirm too.
    Where did you get it from - I wan't to make my voice heard

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    The real problem here is also that there's going to be absolutely no possible way to condense the story progression into a reasonable leveling process.
    But you don't need to do anything about it.

    Ignoring the fact that every single piece of leveling is done through outdated lore, you don't get to experience how we get from point A to point B when you are leveling, you jump straight from A to B with the game assuming that your character was there, saved the world, killed the bad guys...

    You don't go to MoP to learn about Garrosh, actually Garrosh has nothing to do with MoP leveling.
    Just as WoD leveling is about the iron horde not about Gul'dan and the legion.
    And Legion's leveling is about collecting certain relics to close a portal, not about using that same portal to go to their homeland and eventually imprision Sargeras just before he stabs the planet.

    The current 1-60 azeroth zones already work as a good introduction to the game, specially some of the zones from 1 to 20 because they have a heavy focus on the race history. Let all the leveling up to the last expansion be done in those zones and make old expansion optional content aviable at some point between level 10-20.
    "Mastery Haste will fix it."

  17. #257
    As long as they rework talents to go with a squish, I can't be happier.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    The real problem here is also that there's going to be absolutely no possible way to condense the story progression into a reasonable leveling process.

    I've been thinking about this all day at work. Even if you took TBC and WotLK out of the loop by making it optional timewalking or something, you'd still have the normal post-cata leveling zones of 1-60 worth of story, which could be blended straight into level-capped zones of cata(Hyjall, Vashj'ir, Deepholme, uldum, etc). Then in order to keep the story consistent, a player would have to go to MoP to learn why Garrosh went through the dark Portal into WoD, which leads into Legion and the aftermath of Sargeras stabbing Azeroth....causing the events of BfA.

    Trying to start a new player at any other point carries its own problems.

    MoP: Starting a new player with Pandaria is going to set an odd tone for the rest of the World of Warcraft experience.
    WoD: Starting with assaulting the Dark Portal and instantly becoming a commander with a garrison makes almost no sense.
    Legion: Other than the odd reason why a brand new character gets handed an artifact, this starting point has some potential.
    BfA: Same issue as Legion. Why is this new character getting the Heart of Azeroth.

    Basically Blizzard almost has to completely overhaul the entire progression and flow of the story, with hundreds of quests being changed to fall in line, in order to make the process of going from level 1 to 120(or whatever number it's crunched to) actually make sense to a new player. And they have to do it in such a way so that it doesn't take 100+ hours to progress through the story just to get to the current content.

    It's a bunch of mutually exclusive goals that I don't see any good way to reconcile outside of letting the player choose their starting point in the story, giving a short scenario or cutscene to explain why their character is a super-champion of the Horde/Alliance, and go from there.
    Theyve already wholesale broken "cohesive story." You can go 1-60 then do BC to 80 and never experience Wrath. Wrath has alot of throwback references and plots in later stages of the game especially Legion. Vice versa with BC just being skipped. Then you get to skip Cata or Pandaria AGAIN with references that would just make no sense.

    The outdoor world story is dead, it no longer matters atleast not to Blizzard.

  19. #259
    The Lightbringer
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    No idea why people are so fixated on WoW having to tell a consistent story with a specific chronological order and so on. We haven't had that for a very long time and it was of limited value. Even FFXIV only does that to a limited degree and only on your first playthrough. So long as each zone has a story, that's all you need, really.

    I've read some interesting options for how it could be done, like doing 1-60 as normal then just picking an expansion to do 1 to 70 with a level cap at 70, and all zones either scaled 1 to 60 ot 60 to 70. At 70 you could have a legacy mode to let you make the 60 to 70 content trivial for non-current expansions.

    Or you could develop a story, perhaps class or race based, that took you through selected zones. But I think you need to allow for dungeon and PvP based leveling. So you need something with some flexibility.

    Anyway this seems to me to be a case of go big or go home, and if they do it, they should do something dramatic. I might even propose permanently capping the max level like DAoC but it might be too shocking.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Geckoo View Post
    But you don't need to do anything about it.

    Ignoring the fact that every single piece of leveling is done through outdated lore, you don't get to experience how we get from point A to point B when you are leveling, you jump straight from A to B with the game assuming that your character was there, saved the world, killed the bad guys...

    You don't go to MoP to learn about Garrosh, actually Garrosh has nothing to do with MoP leveling.
    Just as WoD leveling is about the iron horde not about Gul'dan and the legion.
    And Legion's leveling is about collecting certain relics to close a portal, not about using that same portal to go to their homeland and eventually imprision Sargeras just before he stabs the planet.

    The current 1-60 azeroth zones already work as a good introduction to the game, specially some of the zones from 1 to 20 because they have a heavy focus on the race history. Let all the leveling up to the last expansion be done in those zones and make old expansion optional content aviable at some point between level 10-20.
    You basically just described everything wrong with the leveling process, and how utterly and completely disjointed it is.

    Garrosh is the entire reason we go to WoD in the first place. He caused the Iron Horde. His actions lead directly to AU Gul'dan bringing the Legion back to Azeroth. Which in turn leads to Sargeras plunging his sword into the planet.....which leads to why our characters have the HoA.

    You can't just cut one piece of that story out and have it still make any kind of sense. As I described in the rest of post you quoted, dropping a player in at any point after cata, but without context, is just as bad of a situation as the current leveling "story". And the speed of leveling is almost mutually exclusive to telling that story in a way that makes sense; the faster you level, the more disjointed it gets.

    I'll be REALLY interested to see how Blizzard resolves it with a level crunch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isilarya View Post
    Theyve already wholesale broken "cohesive story." .
    Yes, they have. Take a look at this ridiuclous situation from Reddit, where they describe just how badly broken the situation is: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...rofessor_whom/

    But as long as they're going to do things like mess around with level scaling and level crunch, they might as well go all the way and completely overhaul and redesign the leveling experience. If all they're going to do is just leave things as it is and smash 120 levels down to 60, they might as well not bother.
    Sylvanas has left the Guild.

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