[Survey] Level squish IS coming per Blizzard

[Video Games]

I took the survey and i told them i dont like it and they must listen to me.

[Vynestra]

I took the survey and i told them i dont like it and they must listen to me.

It's a shame its more than likely already deep in development, and they're more than likely not going to cancel it unless there was major backlash, which there really hasn't been yet.

[Video Games]

It's a shame its more than likely already deep in development, and they're more than likely not going to cancel it unless there was major backlash, which there really hasn't been yet.

There wont be since they already did 2 stat squishes and 1 ilvl squish. Get ready to do mc-abt at 40 or something.

[Byleth]

I can't vouch for the screenshots, I just copied them off of the reddit thread. If they look weird, idk why they would. However, I did get the actual survey, it was from the normal Blizzard survey email address, it had my name instead of just "Hello , " and it brought me to an actual blizzard site for the survey. So it's real.

You definitely didn't get the Survey then

The Survey was handled through Survey monkey, though the link to it came in an email from Blizzard.

[Coffeh]

If this means they can bring back the old talent system I'm all for it.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

I wonder if theyre going to do a talent overhaul or something to give you something every level - It's unlikely, but I wonder if they'll re-do the system to be a combo of the old boring passives and the new more interesting talents, to give you something -every- level.

I'm doubtful, but I also wonder how low they'd go.

60?

40?

120 is 50 and next xpac is 60?

Talent revamp, old world revamp, "retiring" expansions, SOMETHING has to tie into this. I doubt they'd put that on the survey if it was just "we cut the levels in half and doubled the exp to level for each level."

[Thetruth1400]

I wonder if theyre going to do a talent overhaul or something to give you something every level - It's unlikely, but I wonder if they'll re-do the system to be a combo of the old boring passives and the new more interesting talents, to give you something -every- level.

The old system wasn't that bad, it is how people look at it that's the problem.

Instead of looking at it like, "Oh this talent only gives me 15% more bleed damage" people need to look at it as "Not only does this talent give me 15% extra bleed damage, but will allow me down the line to do even more bleed damage from crits as well as increasing the chance to crit even further down the line."

In other words, look at those "boring" talents as investments into the future, not just a simple "Oh it's just a tiny buff, it's boring."


I guess my big question is; how big is the crunch going to be on a time to level scale more than a what's my final level number. 1-120 today is extremely fast to do. I'd say it easily to level a character up from scratch in 4 days of /played time tops. Back in Vanilla WoW, a 1 - 60 easily took 10+ days of /played.

If they lower the max level down to 60, but it takes as long as a current 120, I'd be okay with that. If they lowered the max level to 60, but it takes just as long as a 1-60 of today, that's just too fast. They trivialize the leveling experience too much and might as well just remove it at that point because a max level character would take about a day of play time to get at that point, not to mention you'd hit maybe a dozen zones total out of a world that has, as of 8.2, 122 zones.

[Saberstrike]

even if it's official, the design-work is very amateurish. the logo dipping into the header and just the general jankiness of it all makes it look like its been thrown together in photoshop in 10 minutes.

We should totes meme it.



On a more serious note though, long overdue. I am one of like 3 people in this game who unironically enjoys leveling, and I feel like for the sake of streamlining everyone into the endgame the leveling was made less and less enjoyable by taking away things such as talents / more situational abilities that made it feel less like 'just a thing you need to do to get to the end'. It was always that, but it didn't -feel- that way until the last few expacs.

I hope it's real and that it's happening, but I am skeptical.

[exochaft]

Talent revamp, old world revamp, "retiring" expansions, SOMETHING has to tie into this. I doubt they'd put that on the survey if it was just "we cut the levels in half and doubled the exp to level for each level."

I'd hope there was an open-ended question concerning comments/suggestions on that survey, as the question of whether one would be favorable or unfavorable to a level squish is extremely subjective.

There's a bunch of models out there (even in their own games) that Blizz could go with, but one thing that's lack is the RPG aspects/feel of WoW. I mentioned in another thread I've been playing various RPGs in between raid days, and by comparison WoW just feels like an MMO with barely any RPG. The current leveling system and values associated with leveling are a symptom of that problem, as lacking of meaningful or impactful progression in a character completely strips the RPG experience from the game.

Perhaps they need to be bold and try something completely different from what WoW has been. Blizz has been trying to play it safe and placate the masses for quite a while, but that generally results in middle-of-the-road, bland experiences. It's been no secret that WoW leveling has a reputation even outside of the game, perhaps changing how leveling works or even what leveling means in relationship to the rest of the game is what we need. As you stated, if you just squished the max level and the exp gains per zone and their level requirements while requiring the same amount of time to level, you've basically changed nothing.

Blizz has tried various systems outside of the leveling process to add character progression, but it's still all been contained within the same mindset of character leveling. For example, the Azerite systems in the past two expansions are pretty much a clone of the leveling process: you gain "xp", you ding levels on your Azerite stuff, goes from super fast to a long grind while most of the levels don't matter, eventually reaching a cap where your progression is done. To expand even further, the benefits/results of the progression are exactly the same for everyone. This would be a great time for them to start expanding what you can do with your class/spec to levels of what other RPGs allow, to where we don't see a spec of a certain class and they're not basically a clone of every other person who is that spec with certain minor differences. Would it be difficult and hard to balance? Certainly, but I feel Blizz has been so afraid of imbalance that they shy away from anything that would cause it despite potentially being healthy and desired for the game.

[Lei]

Not 100% opposed to a Level squish if it’s done right.

Cap the levels at 100, then have a post-100 “growth” system, like artefacts or whatever that make you more powerful and an attunement of sorts to get yourself eligible for running the raid content for that expansion etc. that is not a fleshed out idea just a very basic thought. I’m sure more work put into it that it could and would work. Just needs to be done right. They previously had the path of titans progression system and that would have been a great idea. Something like that would be good. A level cap and path of titans style system

Yeah that is where I would never play wow again.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

I'd hope there was an open-ended question concerning comments/suggestions on that survey, as the question of whether one would be favorable or unfavorable to a level squish is extremely subjective.

There's a bunch of models out there (even in their own games) that Blizz could go with, but one thing that's lack is the RPG aspects/feel of WoW. I mentioned in another thread I've been playing various RPGs in between raid days, and by comparison WoW just feels like an MMO with barely any RPG. The current leveling system and values associated with leveling are a symptom of that problem, as lacking of meaningful or impactful progression in a character completely strips the RPG experience from the game.

Perhaps they need to be bold and try something completely different from what WoW has been. Blizz has been trying to play it safe and placate the masses for quite a while, but that generally results in middle-of-the-road, bland experiences. It's been no secret that WoW leveling has a reputation even outside of the game, perhaps changing how leveling works or even what leveling means in relationship to the rest of the game is what we need. As you stated, if you just squished the max level and the exp gains per zone and their level requirements while requiring the same amount of time to level, you've basically changed nothing.

Blizz has tried various systems outside of the leveling process to add character progression, but it's still all been contained within the same mindset of character leveling. For example, the Azerite systems in the past two expansions are pretty much a clone of the leveling process: you gain "xp", you ding levels on your Azerite stuff, goes from super fast to a long grind while most of the levels don't matter, eventually reaching a cap where your progression is done. To expand even further, the benefits/results of the progression are exactly the same for everyone. This would be a great time for them to start expanding what you can do with your class/spec to levels of what other RPGs allow, to where we don't see a spec of a certain class and they're not basically a clone of every other person who is that spec with certain minor differences. Would it be difficult and hard to balance? Certainly, but I feel Blizz has been so afraid of imbalance that they shy away from anything that would cause it despite potentially being healthy and desired for the game.

Personally I've played three MMOs recently. Retail WoW, Classic WoW (Between BC Private and Classic Stress Tests), and FFXIV. It wasn't honestly clear to me at first but jumping from Retail to Classic made it crystal clear that leveling in retail has a huge problem. And it's not even the RPG aspects, it's the journey aspect. WoW leveling has largely been boiled down into a led by the hand chore. You go to a quest hub, do three quests (usually two kill quests and a collection quest), then get a breadcrumb that leads you just up the road to a tent with two NPCs that has another three quests, then a breadcrumb further up the road to maybe a house...

I rolled a Kul'tiran full of excitement and joy to try a class I hadn't played since Wrath and by the time I finished one zone I was burned out and ready to go back to any game other than WoW. That's unsustainable, that's why people look at the 120 cap and say "I need to do 120 levels of this crap?" Whereas you look at Classic and the journey and the discovery is baked right into the experience (and honesty half the fun), you'll pick up 7 quests from Crossroads and some of them are pointing you north, which then would progress you to Ashenvale, and some are pointing you south where you're staying in the Barrens, and one probably points you all the way to Silverpine. Or you look at XIV, where sure the leveling is still more led by the hand, but the hand is consistent, and the action is broken up more often with hubs filled with side quests and dungeons not used as a "capstone for the leveling experience." Leveling's been broken since the Cata revamp happened, but it's become more and more clear as the content has gotten older and staler.

Honestly talents and RPG aspects are probably a secondary problem here. Squishing the numbers on their own will give you more steady rewards. What Blizz needs to do is either give us less leveling or give us better leveling. The boost shouldn't be an excuse anymore. Heritage Armor took away that excuse. That's why they either need to go in and seriously revamp the Old World (and maybe beyond), or just "retire" (from the leveling process anyway, they can stay around for collecting) old expansions like BC, Wrath, and Cata.

[Lei]

The old system wasn't that bad, it is how people look at it that's the problem.

Instead of looking at it like, "Oh this talent only gives me 15% more bleed damage" people need to look at it as "Not only does this talent give me 15% extra bleed damage, but will allow me down the line to do even more bleed damage from crits as well as increasing the chance to crit even further down the line."

In other words, look at those "boring" talents as investments into the future, not just a simple "Oh it's just a tiny buff, it's boring."


I guess my big question is; how big is the crunch going to be on a time to level scale more than a what's my final level number. 1-120 today is extremely fast to do. I'd say it easily to level a character up from scratch in 4 days of /played time tops. Back in Vanilla WoW, a 1 - 60 easily took 10+ days of /played.

If they lower the max level down to 60, but it takes as long as a current 120, I'd be okay with that. If they lowered the max level to 60, but it takes just as long as a 1-60 of today, that's just too fast. They trivialize the leveling experience too much and might as well just remove it at that point because a max level character would take about a day of play time to get at that point, not to mention you'd hit maybe a dozen zones total out of a world that has, as of 8.2, 122 zones.

But in vanilla you didn't even have enough quests to get around. Do you want to go back to that? You can't just praise the vanilla leveling stats without taking everything else into account.
The second part is unsolvable imo. You have 15 years of quests to distribute into a leveling experience that shouldn't be the whole 15 years of questing. You will skip zones, it is just what it is.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

But in vanilla you didn't even have enough quests to get around. Do you want to go back to that? You can't just praise the vanilla leveling stats without taking everything else into account.
The second part is unsolvable imo. You have 15 years of quests to distribute into a leveling experience that shouldn't be the whole 15 years of questing. You will skip zones, it is just what it is.

I mean you did (at least after they gave Horde more quests, which they did by 1.12) it was just a matter of you had to go seek out those quests. The game didn't hand you a breadcrumb every third quest saying "okay go up the road now for your next quest." Heck sometimes the game expected you to just... go seek out a new zone entirely to level in. Rather than having each neighboring zone be a precise 5 level jump.

And besides, you can go back to some of it without going back to all of it. We're talking 9.0 in this thread, not 1.13.

[Lei]

I mean you did (at least after they gave Horde more quests, which they did by 1.12) it was just a matter of you had to go seek out those quests. The game didn't hand you a breadcrumb every third quest saying "okay go up the road now for your next quest." Heck sometimes the game expected you to just... go seek out a new zone entirely to level in. Rather than having each neighboring zone be a precise 5 level jump.

And besides, you can go back to some of it without going back to all of it. We're talking 9.0 in this thread, not 1.13.

How do you go back to some of it tho? When they put in the level scaling system, they "accidentally" raised the leveling time by approx. 20%+. People were NOT happy. I wasn't.
In vanilla you didn't have this many quests. Simple as that. Leveling doesn't only exist in "hours required to finish" aspect. We have thousands of quests now.

Blizzard started to nerf the xp required to level in 2.3, while they added some quests into some zones. Just another thing to think about.

So you have 122 zones (as someone mentioned), and only 60(?) levels to distribute that - after the squish. I believe there are thousands of quests by now. Either you accept that people will skip a lot of zones, or do something hideous to make people to visit most of the zones, and do most of the quests. I haven't leveled a single character after the scaling system, but I'd imagine people skip a lot of zones, just like before the scaling. This is how I meant unsolvable.

[Super Kami Dende]

you wont be going backwards though, literally nothing but the number will change.

Except for the feeling of progression over 14 years.

[kappalol]

Guess its just a number squish. You will still need the same amount of experience to get to max lvl as now. Also, it will take the same amount of time. You will just not get lvls so fast.

[nodlimax]

How do you go back to some of it tho? When they put in the level scaling system, they "accidentally" raised the leveling time by approx. 20%+. People were NOT happy. I wasn't.
In vanilla you didn't have this many quests. Simple as that. Leveling doesn't only exist in "hours required to finish" aspect. We have thousands of quests now.

Blizzard started to nerf the xp required to level in 2.3, while they added some quests into some zones. Just another thing to think about.

So you have 122 zones (as someone mentioned), and only 60(?) levels to distribute that - after the squish. I believe there are thousands of quests by now. Either you accept that people will skip a lot of zones, or do something hideous to make people to visit most of the zones, and do most of the quests. I haven't leveled a single character after the scaling system, but I'd imagine people skip a lot of zones, just like before the scaling. This is how I meant unsolvable.

The problem isn't having to level. The problem is that the current leveling system is boring as hell because of how the systems have been set up. You can already see it in the Nixxiom comparison from Classic to BFA leveling experience of 1 hour.

In BFA when you level and new equipment you get from quests doesn't really matter as you already are overpowered from the get go and you're able to fight several enemies at once. You also automatically get new abilities and passives without even noticing that you have them. There is no real sense of discovery or accomplishment during the leveling phase of BFA. In Classic you literally start as some no name trash adventurer. You have nothing. Every piece of equip helps you to actually survive longer especially if you are a melee. Every new reward and every big enemy you killed give you a sense of "I've done something!"

Did vanilla have problems? Sure, but they were of a different nature and I think the current problems are worse than what vanilla had.

Also let me just give a quick overview of how many zones I visited the last time I leveled a character from 1-110.
1-60 => three vanilla zones
60-80 => two WotLK zones
80-90 => one Cataclysm zone
90-100 => 1,5 WoD zones
10-110 => 2 Legion zones (I think)

So overall I completed the quest content of 7,5 zones until I reached level 100. Do you think by cutting the numbers in half in terms of the amount of levels it would change all that much? Btw. with that character I visited each dungeon only once to complete the quests.

Anyway the leveling has already been reduced to an absolute minimum in what you have to do and where you have to go. Just changing the numbers is not fixing the core problem.

[Bane-Thunder-God]

I'm all for a level squish just makes sense at this point especially for new interested players. It doesn't affect any of us veterans so i dont see the issue.

[Devilyaki]

Zero reason to do it. All they going to do is take away skills you have now and make you relearn them again..

[Bethanie]

I'm all for a level squish just makes sense at this point especially for new interested players. It doesn't affect any of us veterans so i dont see the issue.

New players already get a level 110 boost, so a leveling squish is of no benefit to them. The level squish only affects veteran players that want to level alts.