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  1. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticcrono View Post
    theyve already pruned many things... and imo it made the game worse for it.

    if they dont want to add new things fair enough i just wish theyd stop removing things and put back what was removed...

    Maybe give us the option to play classes as they were during each expansion and let us choose each one. would add a lot more variety to the game.
    Check out my 9.0 Dynamic Talent. It might interest you as it was one of the major consideration of my proposition.

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo12 View Post
    Something similar to heritage armor.
    Basically, but smaller and spread out through the leveling process instead of only at or near max.

    The ideal system in my opinion would be each class getting class themed cosmetic rewards between power rewards. These can be titles, pets, armor/weapons, and maybe even a mount. At the same time, you've got an "account level" similar to honor level that adds up all of the levels you've earned on your b.net account. Boosted levels grant no progress and lower levels grant less progress (so you can't game the system). Rewards for your account level are generic (not class themed) and would come quickly at first, getting regular rewards through the process of leveling 13 characters to max (one of every class, assuming we get a new class soon). After that, the rewards become much more sparse and are really only there for people that like to level crazy amounts of characters.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by seleri View Post
    It would only solve "empty levels" as you put it. It doesn't solve the lack of rewards.

    Like I said, the only benefit would be the optics for new players. I can understand the argument that a new player coming in may be intimidated by 120+ levels (though I've yet to actually meet one that is).

    A current player will realize that even if there's only 60 levels, it will still take the same amount of time to get a reward as it does with 120 levels (without a significant exp squish). That is the issue. I don't know how to explain it any simpler than that, maybe it's a language barrier thing.

    A level squish without an exp squish is pointless because the current rewards (abilities and talents) still take the same amount of time to earn.
    A level squish with an exp squish without proper compensation invalidates weeks/months of time investment.

    Cosmetic rewards are the only rewards that can be added in the long term because they never need to be pruned or squished.
    If they squish the levels, they have to restructure gear rewards, talents at least to some extent, everything.
    Leveling is fairly fast nowadays, I don't think anyone would hang up on how often they get rewards - not on a micro level, like someone starts to count quests between rewards... rewards just need to be better than the ones they got before, and well structured, so you don't get 3 pairs of gloves one after another with a slightly better ilevel and stat, but you get a pair of gloves first, then belt, then boots etc.

    Adjusting how much time it takes to level from 1 to max is another thing, they could slightly nerf it, because if I remember correctly we didn't have a leveling xp nerf from WoD to BfA as of yet. Those still should/could be tweaked with the level squish.
    But if they do it right, I believe it will have more pros than cons. Or neutral outcomes.
    Yeah the questing experience is boring, but that has nothing to do with playerlevels, and if you ask 5 person about what they think is fun you will get 6 different, contradicting answers.

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    And how would this work with balancing?

    Would players who chose to play DK as it was in Wrath get a massive DPS legup over everyone else, especially in PvP?
    If you make it weaker compared to how it was, then you only get more whiners complaining on how their pet spec is not being looked after properly.

    There is also the problem of the Talent revamp in MoP. Would the classes have completely different talent setups?
    Or would they have custom stats on gear? Would my MM suddenly get Multistrike on gear if i wanted to play it like it was in WoD?
    dunno how it would work with balancing, not really concerned with balancing

    IMO if it was pre cata it would have the old talent trees and if it was after it would have the new ones.

    Though stats wise it would probably not work right since stats are completely different now

    if they cant be exactly like they were in the past id like teh option to have the playstyle they had in the past (ie spells and rotations and specs). if they did that they could balance them using current stats.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    The ones I was talking about happened for every class, you found a couple but they are few and far between, like paladin appears to have NONE of these style of things, neither does warlock, so apparently mage (and maybe another one or two) are just special.

    They need to turn this into an entire system for everyone and it would help a lot with leveling feeling dull.
    In fact, i am going to shoot down this argument right now.

    Retribution has spell ranks for both Crusader strike and Judgment.
    Holy additionally has it for Blessing of Sacrifice.
    Protection has a spell rank on Divine shield.

    What is next, are you going to argue that you meant every spec had at least 4? That every spell had a spell rank?

  6. #346
    Level squish isn't a tool to simplify the game for casuals. It's a tool to make the leveling experience feel more meaningful. The current system is designed to rush you through levels 1 to 110 as fast as possible so you can get to the current content. Most of the time you gain a level the only change is a minor increase to base stats. You may need to gain 10 to 20 levels to even feel a difference in your characters power. If they were to squish the max level from 120 down to 40 each level would roughly feel 3x stronger than it does currently. Imagine if 120 was swished down to 20 and then the new expansion brought characters up to 25. That 1 to 20 experience could feel much more impactful than the current 1 to 120 experience. I'd use level 1 to 2 as a tutorial and then send players to the zone of their choice (from vanilla to BfA) to level 2-20 before hitting the new stuff at 25.

  7. #347
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    He's not wrong... and they don't need to add abilities every level, or even every other level. They had a good thing the started with WoD with the traits that they ditched immediately that could have helped then a lot with leveling feeling more rewarding.

    Like when you get Avenger's shield it only hits 3 targets and then you get a trait that lets it hit 5. Things like that could spice up leveling a LOT.
    Not to bring it up again but a lot of skills in XIV do a similar thing. Where at Rank 1 it'll have a 2 second cast and do damage, then Rank 2 it gains some kind of extra effect, then Rank 3 it becomes instant cast...
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  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    Not to bring it up again but a lot of skills in XIV do a similar thing. Where at Rank 1 it'll have a 2 second cast and do damage, then Rank 2 it gains some kind of extra effect, then Rank 3 it becomes instant cast...
    As i pointed out above, this is already in game. Not for every spell. But from what i have seen so far, every class has at least a few abilities like this.
    Suppose it just goes to show how little the forums actually know about the thing they are supposedly so intimately familiar with.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadzooks View Post
    I know this is a loot based game, but I don't think loot, or talents (or the lack of them) is the problem that a level squish is addressing.

    I think they're seeing allied races not performing like they'd hoped. Survey says: "I ain't leveling from level 20 AGAIN, F DAT." Leveling has been an issue for a while, and Chilton and Hazzacostas ignoring it for so long has made it an almost-crisis.

    But they won't nut up and do what's really needed - remove large chunks of old content. So, they make the level cap 60 again - there's still 15 years of content to slog through.
    Imagine you wanted to watch the last season of Lost again. But you had to start from season 1, and watch every season, until Netflix unlocks the final season. Yeah. You can imagine the reaction. The same one that's getting pretty common with WoW players - "OMG ZANDALAR....I have to WHAT?"

    Like a lot of their fixes, a level squish is an illusion of a fix, because the mountain of content is still there. Because they don't do real fixes, The World Of Hazzcostascraft is all about illusions of solutions. A level fix is the easiest one. It's just numbers. God knows the WoW teams have always taken the path of least resistance.

    The hard fix is making hard choices, like taking everything from vanilla through Wrath, and throwing that on Classic servers, and starting players at what was level 80. Or getting rid of player levels, because they're meaningless now, gear level is the only one that really matters. Paragon is a system that works - hey, they've copied Diablo III extensively already, why not paragons? Isn't reputation pretty much a Paragon system anyway?

    But no, they need the illusion that WoW is populated and healthy at all 120 levels, even though most people know anything before 120 is to be gotten through as fast as possible, and it's not like the devs don't like the income from selling boosts, either. So a level squish won't really accomplish much, other than confuse players even more than they are now, when they leave the current patch content. Because in the end, that's the only content the devs seem to care about these days. They've spent 15 years dropping old content immediately, and it's come back to bite them on the ass, hard.

    They could make the hardest choice of all, and admit WoW is so big now, so bloated, it's unworkable, and it's time for a fresh start. But I wouldn't hold your breath on that one.

    So this is what you get. Meaningless "squishes", that don't address the core problems. Level squishes will be the same as the others they've done - confusing, and then so common, nobody pays attention, and the problems they were meant to address are still there. But hey, they care, they tried, right? Illusion.

    And, I just saw that an Ex CM is implying on Twitter that this survey wasn't even generated by the devs, so...could be all bullshit, anyway. Which means I just wrote all that for nothing...and if anything describes my MMO-C career better, I haven't seen it.

    Now I'm depressed. I need coffee. Bah. GET OUT OF MAH BRAIN WOW. Why can't I quit you?
    They can't exactly whip out a whole new world (I mean Azeroth) in 1-2 years. Of course we are heading to the point where the old world has to reborn or something, but if the old world reborns, wouldn't that involve a level squish? i know for sure paragon levels are not for me, that would mean the end of wow for me. If anything, THAT is illusion of progression. You still would have an arbitary number after your player level, because others and you too have to distinguish a paragon level 12 player from a paragon level 122 player. I'm so tired of rental progression systems that are illusions of real, tangible systems.

    Edit: remaking the old world has it's own problems. Creating a new world with new rules is easy, players usually accept it. redoing something players love and have been loving for a decade on the other hand? Just look at cataclysm. How many more players can they afford/willing to lose for "idiotic" reasons like how barrens looks like after deathwing vs. before? So losing players that are not flexible at all when it comes to Azeroth. Azeroth is Azeroth is Azeroth. Period. :/ Even if they present the best leveling experience (which would require something new to questing, yeah, good luck with that), with the most beautiful graphics, they would probably still get backlash. it's basically setting themselves up to failure.
    Last edited by Lei; 2019-06-14 at 09:30 PM.

  10. #350
    I don't know how I feel about a level squish. On one I think the levels are getting out of hand but then again it's not really something that affects gameplay so why bother with it? Let it go to 200 or 300 who cares? Although I would like the idea of having a max level of 100 and then anything above that would be like a prestige level and it would have some sort of indication on your character portrait and tooltip showing you and other people which prestige level you are.

    As for that survey I've never seen anything on the Blizzard launcher or any email saying they're going to send surveys or anything regarding them.

  11. #351
    Not gonna get my hopes up, but I'm cautiously looking forward to this. Having a fun leveling experience would be wonderful.

  12. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by seleri View Post
    Basically, but smaller and spread out through the leveling process instead of only at or near max.

    The ideal system in my opinion would be each class getting class themed cosmetic rewards between power rewards. These can be titles, pets, armor/weapons, and maybe even a mount. At the same time, you've got an "account level" similar to honor level that adds up all of the levels you've earned on your b.net account. Boosted levels grant no progress and lower levels grant less progress (so you can't game the system). Rewards for your account level are generic (not class themed) and would come quickly at first, getting regular rewards through the process of leveling 13 characters to max (one of every class, assuming we get a new class soon). After that, the rewards become much more sparse and are really only there for people that like to level crazy amounts of characters.
    I have something like that as suggestion but I'll be saving it for my next post.

    Clue it has something to do with modifying UI.
    Pointers, frames, action bars.

    Expansion themed pointers for finishing expansion type contents.
    Scaling UI frames similar to how warfront armors are.
    Last edited by vertigo12; 2019-06-14 at 09:29 PM.

  13. #353
    if you guys think 120 is a lot of levels you should play disgaea... max level is 9999

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticcrono View Post
    youll have to explain that... those would support significantly reduced xp needed to level not the outright remove of levels already earned...
    My thinking is that giving out a free 110 and heirlooms are an acknowledgment that the old content is less relevant so they are giving players a way to skip or reduce time spent there. These systems affirm the idea there are really only two effective character levels in game: max level and non max level. In one sense, the only meaningful distinction in power levels of characters come from gear rather than level.

  15. #355
    Scarab Lord Maxrokur's Avatar
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    I hope the leveling is reduced to 1-60 and take less time to reach max level than the current 120
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  16. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    If they need it I imagine all levels will be like 5 per expansion
    So 60+5+5+5+5+5+5+5=95
    They could also cut the original cap to like 30 but they already have to deal with a balancing nightmare this way
    I say give us a choice.

    1-30 EK and Kalim
    30-55 Any zone.
    55-60 BFA

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Octoberfest99 View Post
    My thinking is that giving out a free 110 and heirlooms are an acknowledgment that the old content is less relevant so they are giving players a way to skip or reduce time spent there. These systems affirm the idea there are really only two effective character levels in game: max level and non max level. In one sense, the only meaningful distinction in power levels of characters come from gear rather than level.
    youre right... so instead of a level squish they should just remove levels outright

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    In fact, i am going to shoot down this argument right now.

    Retribution has spell ranks for both Crusader strike and Judgment.
    Holy additionally has it for Blessing of Sacrifice.
    Protection has a spell rank on Divine shield.

    What is next, are you going to argue that you meant every spec had at least 4? That every spell had a spell rank?
    The only one that even matches up is blessing of sacrifice, Crusader gets holy power for ret because that's its damn resource.... and I just looked at divine shield on my 110 pally, its the exact same as the base spell.

    And yes, I am arguing that they should be more prevalent, they could take a lot of the boringness out of leveling.

  19. #359
    I wonder if the hypothetical level squish happened and we went down to say 60, what happens to legacy raids? You will have over 25 tiers of raids spaced out over base game and 8 expansions once the new one with the squish releases.

    How do you space that out where people can still farm old raids? does molten core become a level 10 raid? Bfa level 50? etc etc
    Then there is the gearing side of it, think to vanilla where things like level 49 blackstone ring were actually great at level 60 you could potentially have bis items being from raids that theoretically you should be able to solo now, either the ilvl difference is going to have to be all sorts of crazy to make it not work that way, the items have a max usable level like legiondaries or the raids are just so low level so that they are trivial loot wise. Imagine a level 55 dragonwrath or fangs of the father would probably beat out a good few lvl 60 weapons without measures taken.
    There is just too much old content to squeeze into a small level unless they just made every expansion to be the exact same level at say 15-50 with the scaling then the next expansion with the squish was 50-60.
    But then you have the issues of old expansions being way less streamlined and linear than the newer ones so absolutely no one would do say TBC,WotLK or Cata vs the streamlined quest hubs of say WoD, Legion and BfA outside of their own personal choice to because its just so much less efficient.
    Would making the raids be 5 man dungeons be a thing?

    It's a massive clusterfuck that i cannot see them actually doing, on the upside if it were to happen we would have a massive pool of dungeons to spam through during leveling

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Octoberfest99 View Post
    Level squish isn't a tool to simplify the game for casuals. It's a tool to make the leveling experience feel more meaningful. The current system is designed to rush you through levels 1 to 110 as fast as possible so you can get to the current content. Most of the time you gain a level the only change is a minor increase to base stats. You may need to gain 10 to 20 levels to even feel a difference in your characters power. If they were to squish the max level from 120 down to 40 each level would roughly feel 3x stronger than it does currently. Imagine if 120 was swished down to 20 and then the new expansion brought characters up to 25. That 1 to 20 experience could feel much more impactful than the current 1 to 120 experience. I'd use level 1 to 2 as a tutorial and then send players to the zone of their choice (from vanilla to BfA) to level 2-20 before hitting the new stuff at 25.
    This won't change anything. You will level even slower and half the abilities you get anyways are pretty shitty. There are far more bigger problems with the game and leveling right now than the big number (which doesnt even matter, its basically cosmetic.)

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