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  1. #41
    I agree, at this point they do more harm than good and might as well be removed. Bringing back the original trees or something else that actually improves player choice and character development would be preferred over all, but if it's between these 1 of 3 non-choices, then yeah I wouldn't miss them for a second.

  2. #42
    It's a terrible idea. A big part of any given MMO is customization with regard to aesthetics and character build. Take the talents away and another huge part of what makes MMO's unique is gone.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Jindujun View Post
    More like havent been compelling since they dumbed down the talent system. Bring back the trees and expand them with viable options
    The talent tree's were just a facade. The theorycrafters just figured out the best selections and that's what people took.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    I'd rather they just remove talents and have the classes have a full toolkit rather than all the abilities locked behind a choice of 1/3. I want ALL of the abilities. Why choose when you can have them all?
    That's how I feel about PvP talents. Don't gate stuff that makes your class more fun to play behind a warmode toggle/being inside of a PvP zone. It's shit.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    This is a misrepresentation. It wasn't only the top guilds that required this. Any decent guilt with any measure of concern for an acceptable pace of progress required their players to be properly specced.

    I recall, I believe it was MC, my class leader telling me one of two things (I can't recall which one precisely): You're not getting promoted or you're not getting gear until you respec properly into Holy (Paladin), because at the time I was still raiding with, I dunno. 30 points in ret and 30 in Holy or smth, and the cookie cuter was smth like 40 or 41 in holy and the rest in ret.

    And my guild wasn't cutting-edge by any stretch of the imagination
    Maybe my experience is skewed because guilds I were in were mostly friends just playing together but I have hard times to remember someone would be just "forced" into spec. I was PvP speced enhance and I wasn't their first choice of course, but I was invited quite often for raids. I still believe people are overstating how builds were important for "everyone" - it's just not true, not even close. Most people didn't care about these super efficient pve builds or even about current top tier pve content. Most people didn't play cookie cutter builds. I would bet on that.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Yes you can.

    This is a very old thread that keeps popping up every so often over the years. You CAN escape optimal specs by having bosses randomize their abilities every pull. Maybe one pull its a heavy single target fight. The next pull its a very heavy AoE fight. Maybe the next pull they have resistances. Optimal specs only exist because we get scripted encounters. If the encounters had a random element to them, people would be free to pick from a suite of talents because no spec would be the best.
    Optimal spec would be the one that's most suitable for the most likely scenario. If there are equally likely for any scenario it would be the one that preforms the best in most of them.
    At best you might have players with different specs to cover more ground. That would still mean players are forced into separate spec to complement each other, which means you will most likely end up playing a spec you don't want because you have to.

  7. #47
    We can do the same thing with combat abilities. They keep getting worse, and since there's always a correct button to press, the player is really just given the illusion of choice anyhow.

    /logic

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    You would just pull/wipe the boss until you get the easiest way to kill em.
    You wouldn't know which is the easiest ahead of time tho. The most efficient path would be to just try hard each pull.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Optimal spec would be the one that's most suitable for the most likely scenario. If there are equally likely for any scenario it would be the one that preforms the best in most of them.
    At best you might have players with different specs to cover more ground. That would still mean players are forced into separate spec to complement each other, which means you will most likely end up playing a spec you don't want because you have to.
    I think it might evolve into a situation where you have "AoE raiding guilds" "single target raiding guilds" "melee raiding guilds" "ranged raiding guilds", etc. People would stack one of them to get an occasional boost when the boss rolled a matching set of abilities. But the thing is, there would be no cookie cutter specs. People would pick what they like and then find the appropriate raiding guild.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  9. #49
    If they don't plan on implementing completely cosmetic things via talent, something like murder of crows vs murder of pigs or murder of stampede of animals - where the damage would be identical and they are purely used for cosmetic effect, then yes I would say remove them.

    There is literally no choice involved in choosing something when one of said things is better than the others, well unless you want the ability to make the wrong choice. Same with classic, there was still wrong choices and I never understood people saying you had choices back in classic with talent selection.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    You wouldn't know which is the easiest ahead of time tho. The most efficient path would be to just try hard each pull.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I think it might evolve into a situation where you have "AoE raiding guilds" "single target raiding guilds" "melee raiding guilds" "ranged raiding guilds", etc. People would stack one of them to get an occasional boost when the boss rolled a matching set of abilities. But the thing is, there would be no cookie cutter specs. People would pick what they like and then find the appropriate raiding guild.
    Highly doubt people would just be join a guild wihh only one spec to work with the encounter if they get rng that it becomes the fight they are specced for. You would kill raiding in the process of you have to wipe and wipe and wipe on purpose until you get one try on the actual encounter you can fight.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by styil View Post
    Talents have been around since the inception of WoW, but have really struggled to find a compelling place in the game. What if instead of this archaic system, we were simply given the tools that we need at a baseline level? With some of the existing talent trees simply baked into the class. I think that this would solve multiple problems:

    - classes no longer feeling barebones
    - greater player agency by having the appropriate tools needed to perform
    - less development time wasted attempting to balance 36 specs of talent trees every patch
    - levelling experience improved with more skills unlocked as we level

    The major drawback would be that players would no longer be able to choose their talents, but they never really were choosing talents in the first place as there is always the right choice for every situation.

    What do you think? Should the entire talent system be sceapped for 9.0? With talents baked into classes. Or should the current system remain?
    Thanks for Killing the already dead RPG aspect of World of warcraft MMORPG

    now this game and a freemium mobile gatcha game wont be so different, but even that has more RPG mechanics than Retail of Late.

  12. #52
    I'm just looking forward to a game where creative (silly?) builds are rewarded instead of punished. You know, RPG.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Highly doubt people would just be join a guild wihh only one spec to work with the encounter if they get rng that it becomes the fight they are specced for. You would kill raiding in the process of you have to wipe and wipe and wipe on purpose until you get one try on the actual encounter you can fight.
    It would NOT be tuned where:

    1. If the random boss skillset doesnt match with your guild, fight is impossible.
    2. If the random boss skillset matches with your guild, fight is doable.

    It would be more like:

    1. If the random boss skillset doesnt match with your guild, fight is slightly harder.
    2. If the random boss skillset matches with your guild, fight is slightly easier.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Yes you can.

    This is a very old thread that keeps popping up every so often over the years. You CAN escape optimal specs by having bosses randomize their abilities every pull. Maybe one pull its a heavy single target fight. The next pull its a very heavy AoE fight. Maybe the next pull they have resistances. Optimal specs only exist because we get scripted encounters. If the encounters had a random element to them, people would be free to pick from a suite of talents because no spec would be the best.
    I can't see many people lining up to play a game where their performance may be up or down X% based purely on rng and besides, guilds would just gear/spec for one strat and call an instant wipe/reset when that wasn't what they were confronted with.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    It would NOT be tuned where:

    1. If the random boss skillset doesnt match with your guild, fight is impossible.
    2. If the random boss skillset matches with your guild, fight is doable.

    It would be more like:

    1. If the random boss skillset doesnt match with your guild, fight is slightly harder.
    2. If the random boss skillset matches with your guild, fight is slightly easier.
    Sure, doesn't change the fact that people will calculate and theorize optimal specs to be good at most fights that can occur.

    Also, it was merely poking fun at your idea of raiding guilds ONLY dedicated to certain dps specs.

    And we haven't even talked about developing them would take a fuck load of time. Unless you put the amount of bosses down to their combined states equals to around 8-9...then you just have raid like before except rng after pulls. Not sure people would be happy about that.

  16. #56
    Stood in the Fire Whistl3r's Avatar
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    Much like climate change I think we need more trees.

  17. #57
    How about, instead of Talents that we have today (minor alterations to existing skills, passives, and a few actives), they replace them with multi-class like options that dramatically alter the class's playstyle?

    JUst a thought

  18. #58
    The Lightbringer Darknessvamp's Avatar
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    I mean I wouldn't be opposed to it, it's not like people vary much from the Raiding or Mythic builds unless they're using a single different ability to deal with a single encounter's specific mechanic or something. Rather I've personally felt since MoP that Blizzard could have focused less on talents and have experimented more with players control of their stats through systems like Reforging where they could do more than being used to ensure gear was hitting specific stat break points in order for spells to reach their maximum efficiency and output. Instead they could have tried using the stat manipulation to enable players to augment their classes and specs play styles allowing them to adjust their rotations by using certain stats to favour certain abilities (E.g. Mana Cost, Refresh/CD, Amount of ticks, range, etc.) so that they could essentially define their role themselves. For example, A Destruction Warlock could adjust their stats to make themselves more geared towards single target encounters with some cleave but would severely weaken their AoE potential whereas another similar Des Warlock could do the opposite and wouldn't be able to do any significant single target damage. Frankly if they were to get rid of Talents then looking into this sort of system wouldn't be a bad idea for them.
    Elune: "My sister needed Anima so I let my favoured people die. What is this 'Maw' you speak of?"
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  19. #59
    Need something similar than in path of exile

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darknessvamp View Post
    I mean I wouldn't be opposed to it, it's not like people vary much from the Raiding or Mythic builds unless they're using a single different ability to deal with a single encounter's specific mechanic or something. Rather I've personally felt since MoP that Blizzard could have focused less on talents and have experimented more with players control of their stats through systems like Reforging where they could do more than being used to ensure gear was hitting specific stat break points in order for spells to reach their maximum efficiency and output. Instead they could have tried using the stat manipulation to enable players to augment their classes and specs play styles allowing them to adjust their rotations by using certain stats to favour certain abilities (E.g. Mana Cost, Refresh/CD, Amount of ticks, range, etc.) so that they could essentially define their role themselves. For example, A Destruction Warlock could adjust their stats to make themselves more geared towards single target encounters with some cleave but would severely weaken their AoE potential whereas another similar Des Warlock could do the opposite and wouldn't be able to do any significant single target damage. Frankly if they were to get rid of Talents then looking into this sort of system wouldn't be a bad idea for them.
    Which is exactly the systems I was proposing but just a level up version of talent rows. Do check out my post although I haven't posted my 6 new talents for Warlock and the 81 new customization for their talents.
    Last edited by vertigo12; 2019-06-15 at 09:32 AM.

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