I'm really struggling here...

[unlockedz]

I no longer play WOW so take what I say with a pinch of salt. Regarding your first comment, it sometimes pays to take a break. You might find that coming back the game will be fresher.

For the rest of your post. The design of WOW doesn't help with the competitiveness of the game. The toxicity of the game happens in part because of how WOW was designed. You were constantly competing with people. There was competition for mining nodes and for loot. Everything about the game had to do with competing. A lot of that has changed now but in a way, that made people selfish. People have become less tolerant of others. They want to do everything as quickly as possible and get annoyed if anyone gets in the way of that goal. You see it with groups and LFR or dungeons. There isn't time to carry a new person. People are still competing to be better then the next person or in a hurry to do something. I am not sure what they are in a hurry for, it's been a long time since I last played.

For me, I just try to have fun in any game. The moment it feels like a job, then it's time for a break.

I imagine they're in a hurry to get it done and leave the game, or play on the next alt.
I'm usually in the first category.

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i have been in maybe 15-20 pugs during bfa, only 2 had people raging, me being one of those but a more general rage like how can we so stupid, not a personal atack.
i have failed many many many keys by myself (pre 15's mostly during uldir)
i have seen people fail 15-19's during bfa with moderate to little ammount of raging from the group.
in m+ i only pug with 2k+ score right now and i've only seen 2 groups that i can remember being very toxic, 1 was the tank towards me (so i'm maybe bias) and on the other it was the group towards a hunter. they kicked him right before we completed the key. the rest were melow or usually just left when the key was burned.

i remember farming like a retard on lfr legion and rarely had bad experiences, mostly it was just chat like hur dur lfr.
i assume this mostly happens in HC pugs, the game got harder and with all the inflated ilvl people go there and fail, they get shit on and don't really enjoy that.
i fail to see the wow you're seeing as we are playing different games it seems.
most of this shit behaviour takes places at the "starting" point of endgame...like normal/hc/+7_+13. after that people from what i've seen are more chill, focused on their game and aware that fuckups happen.
as most people do not get over that start point for some reason they are always engaging with idiots thus seeing the whole game as toxic, far from it.
this raid at least from my view has many death on fail mechanics that your casual weekly players has a higher chance of failing, that's why i said the game is harder. i tried pugging opulence a few times and out of 10 pugs i killed it maybe with 3 on HC.
i view the game same as you even though my experiences lately are different, i'm mostly stuck with my draenor experience when i was at the starting part. alot of hc pugging, group breaks and what not until i got tired of it and started playing in guilds. never looked back, i would simply delete the game if i didn't have enough time to guild raid.
so if you only want normal/hc/7+_+13 by pugging in this game, well i expect you'll have a short stay unless you simply don't give a shit, in which case more power to ya.
that's how i view it.

[justandulas]

The game is garbage, when the game is garbage people get pissed at the game and the developers.

TL;DR stop telling people how to feel.

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The gamers of the 90s and 00s, myself included, weren't too exposed to the internet, and those who were didn't have the numerious resources available on the internet today. 4chan, reddit, most gaming forums just weren't there at all and what was around had a very limited social base. Long story short people were still assholes.

Comparing games that have literally 1/50th of WoWs playerbase is a very skewed comparison, just saying. That's like using a high school who's graduating senior class had 150 students to one that had 800+ students to compare bully rates.

Except that wow had more players during its early years with that generation of gamers. They were nicer and better people because they simply just were, and because the game was designed around it. Assholes tended to get black listed which would halt their progression on that server flat

We need that kind of accountability back in wow

[Doffen]

Assholes tended to get black listed which would halt their progression on that server flat

I always wonder why people always bring up the blacklisting part. It is used a lot, but there were very few players who actually got blacklisted so much that they had to change server/name. Most of them didn't really bother, because most of those so called a-holes were usually the best players and who played in guilds that was way better than the average pug/guild. The elitist players who tought they were better than others. It is the same today, of every single scrub that sucks that are toxic, there are 9 good players that are toxic.

Back in classic/tbc etc blacklisting only did so much. People wanted those good players in anyway because they were actually good. It's almost like people tolerated that stuff more than they do today, and it's not really surprising when we see how the world has changed the last 3-4 years. And it is true, people generally had better tolerance of shit before, and now people get upset for everything.

[Swnem]

Tell you what dude.

Are you afraid to break your sub in hopes of getting other goodies? How much money did you give to blizzard before you got the statue? What use is the statue to you now?

So, you have 2 choices here. Either you keep the sub going and don't play the game and go play something else, but you will still have your record.
Or you go: screw it and stop the sub until you feel like playing again. The money you save from it, you can put aside and buy yourself a little present instead. The reverse statue.

AKA i don't think it's healthy for people to force themselves to do things they don't enjoy, without at least getting payed for it.

[Doffen]

So based on your points blacklisting will be prevalent in classic because "now people get upset for everything"

Maybe not, but good point.

The only people I could see got blacklisted were 2 people who ninjaed over the three servers I played on, over 2 expansions. I don't think people being asshats did that much to people, hence my point with people being more tolerant before. Seeing how people think that WoW and other games are much more toxic now than before. So perhaps it will happen more. Didn't some streamers also want to "blacklist" people if they were mean to them or were ganking them?

It might even be a problem that we won't be sharded in Classic if that's the attitude. I'll guess we will see.

[justandulas]

I always wonder why people always bring up the blacklisting part. It is used a lot, but there were very few players who actually got blacklisted so much that they had to change server/name. Most of them didn't really bother, because most of those so called a-holes were usually the best players and who played in guilds that was way better than the average pug/guild. The elitist players who tought they were better than others. It is the same today, of every single scrub that sucks that are toxic, there are 9 good players that are toxic.

Back in classic/tbc etc blacklisting only did so much. People wanted those good players in anyway because they were actually good. It's almost like people tolerated that stuff more than they do today, and it's not really surprising when we see how the world has changed the last 3-4 years. And it is true, people generally had better tolerance of shit before, and now people get upset for everything.

On my old pvp server, on horde side, we had a public list of near 10 names that every time they talked or asked for a group they’d be bombarded with “he’s a ninja. Don’t let him in etc”

They were halted on their progression dead flat, and even tried to come back in tbc only to have their names and infamous legacy live on and they be halted from joining groups.

They used to cry foul and how it wasn’t fair that they were blacklisted and had to reroll etc

It wasn’t perfect but there were definitely servers out there where ninja looting or being a total asshole would get you blacklisted outright and you’d be stuck

[Zyky]

Except that wow had more players during its early years with that generation of gamers. They were nicer and better people because they simply just were, and because the game was designed around it. Assholes tended to get black listed which would halt their progression on that server flat

We need that kind of accountability back in wow

There have always been assholes in WoW, since the beginning. Vanilla was the only point where blacklisting was a thing, and post Vanilla it disappeared. "Accountability" isn't going to fix the game from terrible design philosophies, it'll only make the game even smaller than it is now via alienation.

[anon5123]

"muh toxic! muh toxicity!"

Oh boy, another one of these posts.

WoW is declining further and further because the game is awful, not because "MUH TOXIC!!!!!!"

[Doffen]

On my old pvp server, on horde side, we had a public list of near 10 names that every time they talked or asked for a group they’d be bombarded with “he’s a ninja. Don’t let him in etc”

They were halted on their progression dead flat, and even tried to come back in tbc only to have their names and infamous legacy live on and they be halted from joining groups.

They used to cry foul and how it wasn’t fair that they were blacklisted and had to reroll etc

It wasn’t perfect but there were definitely servers out there where ninja looting or being a total asshole would get you blacklisted outright and you’d be stuck

Okay, could be server/region based too I guess , maybe some servers, like yours, were more systematic than the servers I played on, no doubt about that. Was wondering, because it was never a big thing were I played. Maybe my experience is only an anecdotal one and not universally true at all, nice to hear different views and experiences about it either way.

How do you think it will be in Classic?

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

Stfu. All it is is insecure people getting a dopamine rush from being passive/aggressive. People who act the worst behind the keyboard are the ones who don't stand up for themselves irl. So they let loose online.

nope, i just like being this way. no one tosses me shit irl either, my biggest struggle is getting my boss to let me know when we are having a sale on the internet so i can properly order boxes lol. my first comment was me trolling. i got banned for it.

i was super bummed when i couldn't respond to the "what metallica songs do you listen to while playing" thread

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Man you need a firing squad.

"You talk shit on the internet so I WILL KILL YOU!" lol

[justandulas]

Okay, could be server/region based too I guess , maybe some servers, like yours, were more systematic than the servers I played on, no doubt about that. Was wondering, because it was never a big thing were I played. Maybe my experience is only an anecdotal one and not universally true at all, nice to hear different views and experiences about it either way.

How do you think it will be in Classic?

Likewise. My experience and server certainly wasn’t universal but I have heard stories similar to both of our experiences

As for how it will be in classic, I totally expect a lot of that to return just because of how competitive the gearing can be in vanilla. In fact, even tho we had addons back then, the addon scene is infinitely more prolific and skilled too so there may even be a blacklist addon for classic where enough people can earmark bad experiences and document it for others. I’d be shocked if that didn’t pop up tbh

[Spotnick]

The day they started to open cross-realm stuff instead of merging realms together is the day that started to happen.

Before that, you were accountable for your actions, we got people kicked from guilds for ninja-looting in pugs because those guys had a reputation to keep up.

Sadly now, if you queue for stuff it's very likely you'll never see those people again, so you can pretty much do whatever you want, you won't be accountable for your actions. This is where the community part of WOW died, of course unless you play only with your guild or friends, then it's still amazing to play.

Guess what I do... only guild and friends

[arkanon]

They certainly weren't the rule when I began playing in TBC, so it's been the exception for over 10 years now.

its ALWAYS been the exception. Its an absolute lie that the community was "better" in any way in vanilla vs now. Nothing has changed, and nothing will change. Played Counter Strike since Beta in the 90s, game was full of assholes then, its full of assholes now. Same goes for any "community" and fanbase.

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The day they started to open cross-realm stuff instead of merging realms together is the day that started to happen.

Before that, you were accountable for your actions, we got people kicked from guilds for ninja-looting in pugs because those guys had a reputation to keep up.

Sadly now, if you queue for stuff it's very likely you'll never see those people again, so you can pretty much do whatever you want, you won't be accountable for your actions. This is where the community part of WOW died, of course unless you play only with your guild or friends, then it's still amazing to play.

Guess what I do... only guild and friends

Absolute garbage - why do you people keep forcing this lie so hard? You compare random LFR ppl with Ninja looting and getting kicked from guilds. And lets talk about the ninja looting thing for a second - To ninja loot, you need to be master looter. To be master looter, you need to be either the raid leader, or, assigned by the raid leader. Anyone in the group can check the loot system at any stage, and the loot system cannot be changed during combat. For them to "get away" with ninja looting, they would need to invite the required number of players, all who are so stupid they dont check the loot rules, and dont question it once. Now, master looter was the standard in my experience, and every single person who joined the raid would ask "loot rules?" to which the RL had a macro, which was usually "Nothing locked MS > OS" or, possibly, "[item] locked all else MS > OS". Now a screenshot of that sent to blizz with the RL taking the loot for themselves was typically acted on i believe, so i really dont think any kind of self regulation by the "community" happened, and i certainly dont think it was effective.

What i did see is an awful lot of people crying "zomg Bob ninja looted!" only to find out that this person joined the pug half way through, didnt check loot rules, and was not aware that Bob had made it very clear that [item] was locked. I believe if you join a pug, it is your responsibility to confirm loot rules before starting, and it is your responsibility to report the player if they choice to break the rules.

The system worked. The only examples of true ninja looting i ever experienced was at the hands of GUILDS. Nothing locked, run going great, a weapon that the RL needs, or, even worse, the RL GF needs, rolls are done, pug wins, item is given to RL GF instead - that is ninja looting. High end guilds were and are notorious for their loot shenanigans - nothing here has changed.

"The community was so strong a guy once ninja looted some pixels and we stalked him so badly across various guilds, servers, and even into other games that eventually he killed himself and his whole family, we are such heroes the community is so strong"

You lot remind me of little kids playing policemen running around yelling "WEEEEOOOOO WEEEOOOO WEEOOOO WEEEOOO STOP NINJA, THIS IS THE POWICE!!!"

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"muh toxic! muh toxicity!"

Oh boy, another one of these posts.

WoW is declining further and further because the game is awful, not because "MUH TOXIC!!!!!!"

Its the one part of classic i think is going to catch people off guard. Either they played in vanilla and have forgotten / rose tinted glasses, or, they didnt play during vanilla and are just going off the tainted 15 year old memories ppl have. Either way, they are in for a hell of a shock when they realise, shock horror, that the community was the same then as it is now.

[oathy]

its gone nastier, Owing to my disability i play wow via a special mouse and basically owing using 3 fingers.
made me a slow player but always knew what to do etc. the past 7 months the amount of times someone
has just been downright abusive in LFR "why you so slow C***"

Main reason I wont join a guild because I dont want to explain the situation when there's no need.
if i was suddenly playing bad i would just stop, but you see it with other players also if the item level isnt high enough
people start a vote to kick in LFR!!.

New players ask a basic question and they get destroyed can truly see why people just dont bother using chat.
That's what struck me about Classic people were being friendly and helpful was really lovely seeing it

[arkanon]

its gone nastier, Owing to my disability i play wow via a special mouse and basically owing using 3 fingers.
made me a slow player but always knew what to do etc. the past 7 months the amount of times someone
has just been downright abusive in LFR "why you so slow C***"

Main reason I wont join a guild because I dont want to explain the situation when there's no need.

So you dont want to explain the situation where there is no need, and yet you explain it here. Interesting. The idea that something special has happened in the last 7 months is a bit silly - the community is the same now as it was 10 years ago, 10 months ago, and it will still be the same in 10 weeks - just smaller. I agree that in a pug you have absolutely no need to explain anything to anyone, so long as you are pulling your weight and now slowing the group down, everyone should mind their own business.

In a perfect Disney world, the group would notice you are slower than everyone else and ask "hey there little buddy, you new to the game? do you require any help? would it be easier for you if the 24 of us slowed down to your pace? would that be nice?" but as i am sure you are well aware, this just isnt a reality in game, or in life.

[Nebron]

Well, that's a serioues utopia you talk about. WoW community is getting more toxic, and so the communities in other online games. It's not the problem of WoW alone.
You can clearly observe this phenomenon with kids and teenagers, since Twitch streamers became somewhat of new authorities. These teens became degraded to some kind of half-wits. And interestigly, most toxicity comes from them.

Good manners and healthy behaviour simplify the reality. And so, a simple conclusion: whenever something is hard, you need a healthy (in terms of behaviour) community to be able to solve these problems. But the game is already oversimplified- so you don't really need good manners, since you don't need to interact with community to overcome the prolems that would occur normally.

You don't need guilds to interact with, because most of the content is simple enough to do it with random pugs. And because you can make these things with pugs, they do not really care about healthy relations. And that problem reinforces when you don't need a fixed group for other activities, and so on...

Conclusion: this game is way too easy for a healthy society to occur.

[Will]

its gone nastier, Owing to my disability i play wow via a special mouse and basically owing using 3 fingers.
made me a slow player but always knew what to do etc. the past 7 months the amount of times someone
has just been downright abusive in LFR "why you so slow C***"

Main reason I wont join a guild because I dont want to explain the situation when there's no need.
if i was suddenly playing bad i would just stop, but you see it with other players also if the item level isnt high enough
people start a vote to kick in LFR!!.

New players ask a basic question and they get destroyed can truly see why people just dont bother using chat.
That's what struck me about Classic people were being friendly and helpful was really lovely seeing it

I also play EU and generally I am not seeing what you're seeing. I occasionally see new players ask "noob questions" in general or trade and barring one or two idiots who might come up with a sarcastic, unhelpful answer, there's generally a fair few people actually give helpful answers, maybe one or two might even provide tips or advice.

I've also done LFR, fucked up in LFR and I've seen slow, slow people in LFR and I've not seen them be abused because of it. Not like you say. Being called a slow c**t just... I'm not saying you're lying, but I wonder if we know the full story either? It can happen, but extreme reactions like that are, in my experience at least, very rare.

Main reason I wont join a guild because I dont want to explain the situation when there's no need.

A huge advantage of a guild is that people know you, your abilities, and what you're like as a person. A guild is, in point of fact, the best place for a disabled player because they'll be surrounded by people who are understanding of them. We have a raider in our guild with chronic fatigue syndrome who is slow, but we understand and accept this aspect of them. Outside the guild people may assume they are slacking, but we know better.

I think that, also, if you do choose to join a guild, you should explain your disability if you believe it'll impact your ability to play. It's only fair. Good guilds are based on mutual understanding and cooperation.

Pugs on the other hand are dog-eat-dog and can't be bothered to understand you.

I wouldn't say the community has gotten worse per se, I'd just say that the impersonal nature of LFR and LFD is that fostering meaningful relationships is so utterly pointless that people tend to show their more callous sides towards others.

[oathy]

I also play EU and generally I am not seeing what you're seeing. I occasionally see new players ask "noob questions" in general or trade and barring one or two idiots who might come up with a sarcastic, unhelpful answer, there's generally a fair few people actually give helpful answers, maybe one or two might even provide tips or advice.

I've also done LFR, fucked up in LFR and I've seen slow, slow people in LFR and I've not seen them be abused because of it. Not like you say.

Not sure if its possible to access the old forums on the WOW EU site but one incident was so nasty I posted on the frostmane section about it.
did just have a look but noticed since the revamp it seems very limited

[arkanon]

I also play EU and generally I am not seeing what you're seeing. I occasionally see new players ask "noob questions" in general or trade and barring one or two idiots who might come up with a sarcastic, unhelpful answer, there's generally a fair few people actually give helpful answers, maybe one or two might even provide tips or advice.

I've also done LFR, fucked up in LFR and I've seen slow, slow people in LFR and I've not seen them be abused because of it. Not like you say. Being called a slow c**t just... I'm not saying you're lying, but I wonder if we know the full story either? It can happen, but extreme reactions like that are, in my experience at least, very rare.


I think this is your problem. The whole advantage of a guild is that people know you, your abilities, and what you're like as a person. A guild is, in point of fact, the best place for a disabled player because they'll be surrounded by people who are understanding of them. We have a raider in our guild with chronic fatigue syndrome who is slow, but we understand and accept this aspect of them.

I think that, also, if you do choose to join a guild, you should explain your disability if you believe it'll impact your ability to play. It's only fair. Good guilds are based on mutual understanding and cooperation.

I think what adds to the issue, is someone asks "what on earth is "server time"?" and what ppl see is 2-3 ppl reply in trade or general with a smart ass answer, what they DONT see is the 2-3 ppl who PM the player saying "hey mate, mouse over the time on your minimap, it should have local time and realm / server time".

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Not sure if its possible to access the old forums on the WOW EU site but one incident was so nasty I posted on the frostmane section about it.
did just have a look but noticed since the revamp it seems very limited

If you have an issue in game, you should be reporting the incident - in game. Going to the forums wont help at all but just cause more drama. If you are having issues with someone on the forums, there is a system in place to address those concerns there as well, and again, it doesnt require a thread about it. You have two options - ignore it, or take action by using the systems put in place to address concerns like these.

[Sylvaeres]

This OP got absolutely butchered for this nonsensical post