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  1. #181
    It is beneficial to the herd to have much offspring.

  2. #182
    This is no different than anything else people disagree about and argue over. People feel strongly about something and struggle to comprehend that someone else might feel differently. I have no intention of ever having kids and have already had a vasectomy. Plenty of people have told me the usual crap about regretting it or not knowing you wanted them until you have them and all that. I personally think a lot of people who love their kids feel guilty admitting they would have rather not had them. You can love your kids but still acknowledge that you would have preferred never having any without it being personal. Anyway it makes no difference to me if they call me selfish or whatever. They can find other parents and talk about how nothing else matters but children if my choice offends them that much.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Mistame View Post
    The "democratic process" is based on the idea that law-abiding citizens are treated equally and have the same rights. Taking away the rights of those who don't have/want children is literally, objectively and factually undemocratic. Your analogy is nonsense. You have no argument other than, "I disagree with people who don't have/want kids, so I think they shouldn't be able to vote", which is vapid and meaningless.
    That's not at all what the democratic process is based on, it's solely an apparatus meant to digest and represent the interests and wishes of the populace via (most cases) voting, everything else is just a cultural addon or cultural take on this form of democracy.

    Democracy has existed without global suffrage, with global suffrage and with varying forms of voting privileges inbetween, all these systems are democratic.
    Last edited by OriginalName; 2019-06-15 at 08:31 PM.

  4. #184
    Over 9000! Mistame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalName View Post
    That's not at all what the democratic process is based on, it's solely an apparatus meant to digest and represent the interests and wishes of the populace via (most cases) voting, everything else is just a cultural addon or cultural take on this form of democracy.

    Democracy has existed without global suffrage, with global suffrage and with varying forms of voting privileges inbetween, all these systems are democratic.
    Any system that doesn't represent equality on the behalf of its respective citizenry is inherently undemocratic.

  5. #185
    Dreadlord Miseration's Avatar
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    Good question bud. I've always wanted kids. and my daughter actually just turned 4. it sinks in afterwards that you are responsible for another life and upbringing of said little one. kinda changes perspectives.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Mistame View Post
    Any system that doesn't represent equality on the behalf of its respective citizenry is inherently undemocratic.
    Quite literally incorrect, rights are not universal and not even within democracy are they all shared.

    Democracy isnt about equality its about representation.

  7. #187
    Over 9000! Mistame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalName View Post
    Quite literally incorrect, rights are not universal and not even within democracy are they all shared.

    Democracy isnt about equality its about representation.
    It's about equality in representation. Any system that excludes citizens, without just cause, is undemocratic, period.

    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/democratic

    pertaining to or characterized by the principle of political or social equality for all

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Mistame View Post
    It's about equality in representation. Any system that excludes citizens, without just cause, is undemocratic, period.

    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/democratic
    That's a bad definition from the outset, because people arent equal and equality is impossible. Even if it's a honorable pursuit, it's lofty and irrelevant to the discussion, because you can have unequal democratic systems; USA pre 1920 female suffrage despite 51% (general figure) of the population being ineligible to vote, the country, was still a democracy.

    You're not afforded the same objective rights regardless in the USA and it's still a democracy, example; reproductive rights are objectively not equal, because women have bodily autonomy. Now I know, that men can't have children, but it's the spirit of the law and rights that matter here.

    Democracy isn't equality, equality can be a policy which a democratic nation may attempt to achieve.

    Either way, this discussion point can be pretty easily solved with the advent of tiers of citizenship, wherein childless people belong to a tier which does not have the privilege of holding office or voting on long term policy.
    Last edited by OriginalName; 2019-06-15 at 10:04 PM.

  9. #189
    Legendary! sam86's Avatar
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    they don't want to feel sh8t, that simple
    they don't want to acknowledge that u are better than them, they want u to be as disgusting piece of sh8t as horrible as them, they can't live their lives know that u are literally better than them not a horny a88 who f8cks for f8cks
    seriously we are overpopulating earth, if anything we should have less children, but the mass uneducated f8ck like rabbits
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalName View Post
    Either way, this discussion point can be pretty easily solved with the advent of tiers of citizenship, wherein childless people belong to a tier which does not have the privilege of holding office or voting on long term policy.
    You can't give some people special voting privileges in a democracy and some people not, that opens a Pandora's Box of bullshit as I pointed out earlier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    they don't want to feel sh8t, that simple
    they don't want to acknowledge that u are better than them, they want u to be as disgusting piece of sh8t as horrible as them, they can't live their lives know that u are literally better than them not a horny a88 who f8cks for f8cks
    seriously we are overpopulating earth, if anything we should have less children, but the mass uneducated f8ck like rabbits
    Yeah low IQ types are the ones who are more likely to breed which is problematic. The continued lack of critical thinking skills evidenced by some of the posts here is evidence enough of it...

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    You can't give some people special voting privileges in a democracy and some people not, that opens a Pandora's Box of bullshit as I pointed out earlier.
    Like, I see what you mean and I agree that you simply can't say "this is how it is now", you have to gradually update the existing system and improve on it with reforms.

    That said, i've been arguing that that only parents should be given franchise due to their inherent loyalty to the system and desire to see it function after they are gone and that the praxis for giving and removing the franchise exists and, it's very possible to do so and that it's not at all undemocratic.

  12. #192
    The Lightbringer Razorice's Avatar
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    Well... to be fair, having kids now that our little planet is getting fucked in the ass by pollution is kind off irresponsible since your offspring are the ones who most likely will suffer.
    That is the reason why I don't want any children.

  13. #193
    Over 9000! Mistame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalName View Post
    That's a bad definition from the outset, because people arent equal and equality is impossible.
    You're blatantly ignoring context to demonstrate a nonexistent point. In the context of representation, discounting felons, everyone is and should be equal. That is what makes it truly democratic. Your opinions to the contrary are irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalName View Post
    USA pre 1920 female suffrage despite 51% (general figure) of the population being ineligible to vote, the country, was still a democracy.
    The US has never been a democracy. Additionally, pre-women's suffrage and civil rights, the system was undemocratic.

    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalName View Post
    example; reproductive rights are objectively not equal, because women have bodily autonomy. Now I know, that men can't have children, but it's the spirit of the law and rights that matter here.
    This is a blatant misrepresentation of reproductive/women's rights and bodily autonomy. Women having certain extended rights do not make them unequal. In fact, those extensions exist to make them equal. A woman has no more or less bodily autonomy than a man does. And frankly, your comment sounds like some MRA/incel nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalName View Post
    Democracy isn't equality, equality can be a policy which a democratic nation may attempt to achieve.
    The term democracy is irrelevant, in the context you're using it. Any system that unfairly or unjustly excludes those it represents is inherently undemocratic. This is an objective fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalName View Post
    Either way, this discussion point can be pretty easily solved with the advent of tiers of citizenship, wherein childless people belong to a tier which does not have the privilege of holding office or voting on long term policy.
    Sounds like some deranged variation of political/social eugenics. Those who have children are in no way superior to those who choose not to. And when one considers the ratio of unplanned pregnancies, it could be argued that a large portion of those with children are too incompetent to vote. Regardless, your "suggestion" is idiotic and reeks of collectivist drivel with a dash of troll dung.
    Last edited by Mistame; 2019-06-15 at 11:14 PM.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathknightish View Post
    Someone says that he/she does not want any children, and immediately the parental defence brigade arrives. "You'll mature someday and know better!", "Children are the best thing the world has to offer!", "WHY DO YOU HATE CHILDREN?!?" and "I thought I used to be happpy, but when I got my child I realise I was a miserable mess!" are things I've heard.

    Why is it difficult for some parents to understand that some people simply don't want any children?
    I want a relationship, but no children, and I'm getting sick and tired on having to defend myself from angry parents who seem to have lost all ability to see things from other's point of view the moment their little poop monster popped out.
    Because some people think they know buy they dont really know themselves or change over time.

    I had a buddy who hates kids ever since I knew him. Attitude did not change until he was urged to have one, and when he did it changed him completely. From the guy who wanted to punch babies to the guy who shares every baby pic on facebook.

    People dont truly know themselves until they challenge themselves with change. This isnt to say it automatically applies to you, but if you wonder why it happens well its because people think they do but sometimes they dont.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2019-06-15 at 11:18 PM.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Mistame View Post
    You're blatantly ignoring context to demonstrate a nonexistent point. In the context of representation, discounting felons, everyone is and should be equal. That is what makes it truly democratic. Your opinions to the contrary are irrelevant.



    The US has never been a democracy. Additionally, pre-women's suffrage and civil rights, the system was undemocratic.



    This is a blatant misrepresentation of reproductive/women's rights and bodily autonomy. Women having certain extended rights do not make them unequal. In fact, those extensions exist to make them equal. A woman has no more or less bodily autonomy than a man does. And frankly, your comment sounds like some MRA/incel nonsense.



    The term democracy is irrelevant, in the context you're using it. Any system that unfairly or unjustly excludes those it represents is inherently undemocratic. This is an objective fact.



    Sounds like some deranged variation of political/social eugenics. Those who have children are in no way superior to those who choose not to. And when one considers the ratio of unplanned pregnancies, it could be argued that a large portion of those with children are too incompetent to vote. Regardless, your "suggestion" is idiotic and reeks of collectivist drivel with a dash of troll dung.
    Just quote me en large or pack them together because it's really hard to respond to these posts without turning it into a quote mess, also i'll not be responding to any of your ad hominem.

    You consistently misunderstand the "equality" clause in the modern definition of democracy, which pertains to equality under the law, which I don't qualify the franchise to be, we do make distinctions for voting rights already as you aptly point out, felons, foreigners, underage children, people with severe mental deficiencies can have their franchise rescinded or awarded to a guardian. It's to this that I refer to, when I say there is praxis for both giving and removing the voting franchise.

    My opinions is what we're discussing here, you keep trying to dismiss them but this is a forum and I approached this thread with an opinion, you're arguing against it, I don't know why you keep repeating yourself here.

    Regardless, i'm not going to unpack the whole "everyone is equal under the law", wether that means the spirit of the law, jurisprudence or consequence of the law it's a huge topic and not relevant to this, so i'll end it by saying; (largely) everyone is equal in the spirit of the law already.

    US has always been a representative democracy with addendums, the latter part something it shares with every democracy that ever was and ever will be.

    It's not a misrepresentation of reproductive rights and it is quite ironic you label it WOMEN'S RIGHTS when that alone indicate the lack of equality in the rights given anyway, because men and women have different functions and are thus NECESSARILY unequal in the law and in rights, i'm not passing judgement here, i'm giving you a very easy example to showcase how we have unequality yet democracy.

    I can concede that rescinding the franchise may appear undemocratic to someone who only admire democracy akin to someone who admires a piece of clothing from a shopping magazine but honestly it's a non issue, because the tenets of democracy arent universal as i've explained earlier.

    I've put no judgement into superiority or inferiority, I don't think people without children are inferior, I think they are less able to make productive political decisions than those who have children.

  16. #196
    Nobody has ever done that to me and I certainly don't do it to others. Having children this day and age is a choice, thank God! (really fucking hate that expression but there doesn't seem to be a better one).

    I'm just gonna leave a couple of ideas floating around here, sorry if they have been said.

    1. You cannot be "anti-breeder", yet expect society to keep functioning when you get old. Without children today, there will be no surgeons to operate on you or garbage ppl to pick up your trash when you're 75.

    2. Children give you a huge sense of fulfillment. Yeah, they're a pain in the ass most of the time, but when you do stuff together and click with them, there isn't another feeling in the world that matches that level of satisfaction.

    I'm hesitant to add 3. They will visit you when you're old. It's not something that's guaranteed, and I certainly don't expect it from mine. It will be nice when it happens though.
    "The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness."
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  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Because some people think they know buy they dont really know themselves or change over time.
    My youngest sister was one of those people. She always said "I'm never getting married, never having kids, blahblahblah", and 100% meant it at the time. I would point out "Yeah, everyone always says that at your age." A few years later, she's married, with a child, and a home.

    I've never really heard anyone say "You have to get kids!", only insomuch as "Oh, you'd make a cute couple and have beautiful babies."

    It's also nice when people share life lessons to you ahead of time, so you can plan for your own possible change of heart later down the road. You may enjoy staying out all night drinking and partying, but when someone mentions "Hey, how do you plan on taking care of yourself when your parents aren't around to support you ?" That helps get you to plan towards a different sort of future.

  18. #198
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    I find the only people as obnoxious as the "I'm a parent so I'm special" crowd are the "I'm childfree so I'm special" crowd. Both ends have their annoying members.

    You have kids? Good for you, move along.

    You don't have kids? Good for you, move along.
    I have a friend now who just became pregnant and certainly, she is obnoxious about it now. But she was always an attention whore. Her Instagram is just legions of "#Glowing" "#FeelLikeaGoddess" "#Blessed".

    I'll say it is true, some chicks get pregnant and act like haughty cunts. But also true, the Childfree and especially the "Wine Aunt" thing is equally bad.
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  19. #199
    Well, it's assumed you wanna pay it forward. Having and raising children is the biggest sacrifice someone can make and it's part of being "thankful" for existing by paying it "forward". I'm so grateful to my dad and mom, I can never repay them. The horror of raising me and worrying about all besides the financial burden is something I can never repay them for but I can repay "forward" it by raising my own children.

  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by spanishninja View Post
    By that logic, I shouldn't have to pay taxes if I don't want to, because there are millions of other taxpayers out there who will do that anyway. What if everybody was as selfish as you?

    But if you still want to go with the selfish mindset, not having children just increases the chances that nobody will give a fuck about you when you get old, especially in the West, where children already are less likely to take care of their elders. enjoy spending the couple of decades of your life alone and miserable, I guess.
    This is probably the most retarded analogy I have ever heard.

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