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  1. #1

    How to fix leveling in WoW and turn it into a fun solo experience

    Fun comes from class gameplay as well as difficulty/challenge and rich story-based interesting content. WoW does not need to be only end-game focused. Challenge and fun activities in end-game comes from group activity in most cases. Questing and leveling is the only part that can be done solo, for the most part. Why not make it more fun and challenging/rewarding? As it is now, people hate it and just want to zoom through it so they can finally play the game.

    Examples:
    1- Mini bosses every 5 levels that would give more/better rewards if solo'ed
    2- Achievements in the form of titles and cosmetic rewards from completing difficult and long quest chains BEFORE level cap
    3-"Mistry" type quests to solve that require exploration and encourage group play (not everything needs to be soloable while leveling!)
    4- PvP based quests before max level (this would work well in previous max level expansion areas)
    5- Story rich quest lines for appropriate zones similar to Suramar's in Legion. Speaking of which, why not make Legion content be a 40-60 leveling zone? 1-40 classic continents with scaling...etc Re-playability in those older expansions would be awesome for story lines.

    What other leveling content ideas do you have?


    Edit: I deleted this post below from another thread where it did not seem to "fit in" and added it to this one with more ideas. Apologies if some are repeated elsewhere.

    1- Make the game permanently stop at level 70, with the latest expansion content set to 60-70, effectively resetting the player's level back to 60 every time a new expansion comes out, or a similar, but better way to do this.
    2- Set all previous expansion content back to level 60, with the ability to selectively turn on/off scaling to level 70 on previous expansion dungeons/raids/zones, but only after the player has cleared the latest content and reached level 70. Legion mage tower solo challenges can forever be replayable if player chooses to do so with scaling on at 70, with the same level of challenge and difficulty and same rewards.
    3- Retail classic, TBC, Wrath zones fully remastered, classic areas limited to 1-40 zones, 40-60 would be player's choice of anywhere in older expansions. More fun to level alts that way.
    4- Make mob fights more fun/interesting/challenging by enabling AI (where it makes sense) and making the game take longer, but without doing so in the most boring way possible (i.e no gating, no increased XP required per level)
    5- Remove flying achiev requirements and instead, simply let players get it after they cleared new zones. Flying is a core element and should not be locked behind such mindless grindy chores.
    6- Bring back talent trees with the ability to choose hybrid specs from more than 1 tree (without useless or OP combination talents).
    7- The above are for retail, however for classic: give players 2 kinds of servers, one with the ability to turn on/off remastered graphics and one with classic-only graphics.

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    The above would basically make retail be a decent wow "2.0" and classic servers as the original wow. This would also make it so Blizz would not have to create servers for any expansions beyond Vanilla since scaling older expansions to make them replay-able and always relevant, and a class rework that takes the best of both worlds would take care of that. I know I wrote "solo" in the title, but I still see it as a choice of solo hard content that is fun and engaging and at the same time encourages group play, especially for weaker classes that cannot solo content.

    Edit: (Other ideas)
    - Making older raids relevant by adding some sort of a progression path where raids HAVE to be cleared in a certain order. Players love this kind of progression, as it feels like having achieved things and gives incentive/reason to enjoy all the quality work that went into those previous expansion raids.
    Last edited by RemasteredClassic; 2019-06-16 at 08:02 AM.

  2. #2
    The clear idea got it from this

  3. #3
    None of these address the core issue, which is that WoW is a game centered around max-level content - and for good reason, given that you can, well, outlevel all the other stuff. Why would you pump content into something that by its very nature is transient? Spend that time and effort on max-level things that you don't immediately rush past.

    That's not to say that WoW's leveling experience couldn't do with a few tweaks, of course. Some content brackets are in a dire need of an overhaul; Outland comes to mind, for example.

    I've also always been in favor of allowing "twinking" of alts via heirlooms much more so than is currently the case. Used to be you could make some investments into your heirloom enchants and it was felt - strongly. Arcanums, spellthreads, all that sort of thing. Then they removed most of them and made enhancements scale with level, so now they're a tiny benefit at best. My guess is that PvP is to blame, as always. And rather than disabling heirlooms or enchants in BGs or whatever they just gutted it completely instead.

    Anyway.

    You don't need sweeping changes. And you don't need huge incentives. Getting to max level is the incentive. Artificially prolonging low-level content with quest chains or whatever is counterproductive. Adding super hard mobs will result in people either cheesing them with higher level characters' help, or ignoring them because they're not worth it. Why? Because - once again - this is transient content, and you can't just rely on finding 3 other people who want to do them the same moment you do. It's like the various Ring of Blood events right now: complete hit and miss, sometimes you happen to find two people ready to do them, sometimes there's nobody around and rather than wait 30 minutes you're better off just doing something else.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    None of these address the core issue, which is that WoW is a game centered around max-level content - and for good reason, given that you can, well, outlevel all the other stuff. Why would you pump content into something that by its very nature is transient? Spend that time and effort on max-level things that you don't immediately rush past.

    That's not to say that WoW's leveling experience couldn't do with a few tweaks, of course. Some content brackets are in a dire need of an overhaul; Outland comes to mind, for example.

    I've also always been in favor of allowing "twinking" of alts via heirlooms much more so than is currently the case. Used to be you could make some investments into your heirloom enchants and it was felt - strongly. Arcanums, spellthreads, all that sort of thing. Then they removed most of them and made enhancements scale with level, so now they're a tiny benefit at best. My guess is that PvP is to blame, as always. And rather than disabling heirlooms or enchants in BGs or whatever they just gutted it completely instead.

    Anyway.

    You don't need sweeping changes. And you don't need huge incentives. Getting to max level is the incentive. Artificially prolonging low-level content with quest chains or whatever is counterproductive. Adding super hard mobs will result in people either cheesing them with higher level characters' help, or ignoring them because they're not worth it. Why? Because - once again - this is transient content, and you can't just rely on finding 3 other people who want to do them the same moment you do. It's like the various Ring of Blood events right now: complete hit and miss, sometimes you happen to find two people ready to do them, sometimes there's nobody around and rather than wait 30 minutes you're better off just doing something else.

    Leveling being treated as transient content is part of the problem. Make it boring and people will have enough and leave, make it harder/more fun and people will enjoy it once and might actually spend money on boosts as opposed to quitting the game if they enjoy the content, they would throw money at the maker, that's what excited people do: SPEND.

    People nowadays have lots of choice and they quickly hate the game and the company that makes it if they feel like they are being forced to spend money, feel like the game is a chore..etc.

    Ultimately, people want to be entertained. Boring leveling combined with boring class playability are some of the main reasons why WoW has sunk down to the levels it's at now. Difficult content also encourages community and player cooperation from the very beginning. People come to WoW not to get more depressed, but to try and get some excitement. I respectfully disagree with your leveling being transient idea.

    And none of the above are sweeping changes. Just tweaking what already exists, mostly.

    EDIT: I reread your reply and see that you agree the game being centered around max-level content is the core issue. Well, the whole point of my post is to make the game less centered around max-level content...

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    Quote Originally Posted by magiskapk View Post
    The clear idea got it from this
    huh?.......
    Last edited by RemasteredClassic; 2019-06-15 at 08:54 AM.

  5. #5
    In a world where titles like Witcher 3, the good Dragon Age games or Fallout New Vegas exist, a satisfying RPG solo experience for me would require a helluva lot more than some minibosses and additional cutscenes.

    WoW's questing has always been mediocre at its best (parts of vanilla like Darrowshire, Storm Peaks, Suramar...) and really terrible at its worst. That was true back then and it's true now. I see why Blizzard focuses on the endgame, it's what makes players tick and is WoW's unique selling point.

    They certainly could make questing better. But In my eyes they could never make it actually good without making this, well, not an MMO.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    In a world where titles like Witcher 3, the good Dragon Age games or Fallout New Vegas exist, a satisfying RPG solo experience for me would require a helluva lot more than some minibosses and additional cutscenes.

    WoW's questing has always been mediocre at its best (parts of vanilla like Darrowshire, Storm Peaks, Suramar...) and really terrible at its worst. That was true back then and it's true now. I see why Blizzard focuses on the endgame, it's what makes players tick and is WoW's unique selling point.

    They certainly could make questing better. But In my eyes they could never make it actually good without making this, well, not an MMO.
    This ^^^

    Personally, I don't think there's anything the devs can do to make levelling feel better. WoW tells a very linear and quite simple story, there's no branching in the story, and thus no replayability. It's a one-time experience, you feel somewhat immersed during your first walkthrough, but beyond that it becomes a chore because you're doing the same quests, you're making the same "choices", and so on.

    Pretty much nothing from your list will make levelling feel better for me.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ls- View Post
    This ^^^

    Personally, I don't think there's anything the devs can do to make levelling feel better. WoW tells a very linear and quite simple story, there's no branching in the story, and thus no replayability. It's a one-time experience, you feel somewhat immersed during your first walkthrough, but beyond that it becomes a chore because you're doing the same quests, you're making the same "choices", and so on.

    Pretty much nothing from your list will make levelling feel better for me.
    And what would make it feel better for you? At least fun class gameplay, I guess? We don't even have that anymore...

  8. #8
    Titan Aggrophobic's Avatar
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    Leveling has never and will most likely never be fun in WoW. The game is and should be about the end game.
    Blizzard does the end game well and they really don't need to change the core idea behind the game.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by RemasteredClassic View Post
    And what would make it feel better for you? At least fun class gameplay, I guess? We don't even have that anymore...
    I mean, questing is fine and sometimes even fun during the first run, when I level my first char in a new xpack, after that it becomes a bore.

    And, as I said, I honestly don't think there's anything Blizz can do as long as WoW is an MMO, MMORPGs have always suffered from this issue. Even games w/ a far more superior story and questing experience, for instance, ESO, suffer from it.

    Even when it comes to singleplayer RPGs, I only replay them if there's meaningful branching and multiple endings, otherwise, there's no replay value whatsoever.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ls- View Post
    I mean, questing is fine and sometimes even fun during the first run, when I level my first char in a new xpack, after that it becomes a bore.

    And, as I said, I honestly don't think there's anything Blizz can do as long as WoW is an MMO, MMORPGs have always suffered from this issue. Even games w/ a far more superior story and questing experience, for instance, ESO, suffer from it.

    Even when it comes to singleplayer RPGs, I only replay them if there's meaningful branching and multiple endings, otherwise, there's no replay value whatsoever.
    fair enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RemasteredClassic View Post
    fair enough.
    Actually, If WoW had ffxiv's story telling style while leveling but with WoW's engine, animations and Wrath classes, it would be the ultimate best of both worlds, for me anyways.

  11. #11
    OP should be legally sentenced to play his "fun" solo leveling experience (esp. the PvP-Quests) 3,5h daily for the rest of his miserable life.

  12. #12
    +1


    i liked the 5 levels bosses

  13. #13
    Stood in the Fire EntertainmentNihilist's Avatar
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    Ignore the haters in this thread OP. I would do three things:

    1. Make everything (at least vanilla-WoD) scale to any level. That way you can do what zones you want in whatever order you want.

    2. Add something vaguely like the old talent system in addition to the new (MoP+) talent system. To make sure the player gets choices and minor upgrades every level. Right now, most levels are just one number going up and a bar resetting.

    3. Make Legion and BFA world quests available from the beginning of leveling through that content. I've done all three Kul'Tiras zones leveling my alliance shaman and two of the Zandalar zones leveling my horde mage, once I do Nazmir on my next horde alt I will have no choice but to repeat the same zones I've already done. Personally, I despise that idea and would much rather be able to level up a character by doing world quests. Kinda like how in Diablo 3 you can level up a character in adventure mode by doing bounties and rifts now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    In a world where titles like Witcher 3, the good Dragon Age games or Fallout New Vegas exist, a satisfying RPG solo experience for me would require a helluva lot more than some minibosses and additional cutscenes.

    WoW's questing has always been mediocre at its best (parts of vanilla like Darrowshire, Storm Peaks, Suramar...) and really terrible at its worst. That was true back then and it's true now. I see why Blizzard focuses on the endgame, it's what makes players tick and is WoW's unique selling point.

    They certainly could make questing better. But In my eyes they could never make it actually good without making this, well, not an MMO.
    I completely disagree, between the lore, art-style, the history of warcraft 3, the characters, etc. I don't find any game world nearly as compelling as the Warcraft world. That's why I play WoW, i'm sure lots of games have gameplay I would enjoy more. But I haven't seen a single game world that grabs me like Warcraft.

    And I like WoW's story telling. Where each zone is a mostly linear story, but most zones are also self-contained, leaving open a large number of linear stories to choose from. I'm not a fan of how a lot of modern, open-world games just have your character wandering around doing one-off missions, very few of which connect to each-other.

  14. #14
    Legendary! Schattenlied's Avatar
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    make the moment to moment gameplay, the combat, actually fun on it's own.

    No amount of story rich quests, achievements, and minibosses will matter if it has no replay value due to WoW's extraordinarily shallow combat.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    make the moment to moment gameplay, the combat, actually fun on it's own.

    No amount of story rich quests, achievements, and minibosses will matter if it has no replay value due to WoW's extraordinarily shallow combat.
    what? and what would a extraordinarily deep combat system be?

  16. #16
    Legendary! Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultima ratio View Post
    what? and what would a extraordinarily deep combat system be?
    Definitely not one where most classes have a 4 button rotation at max level.

    And it doesn't need to be extraordinarily deep, it just needs to have literally any depth at all.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Definitely not one where most classes have a 4 button rotation at max level.

    And it doesn't need to be extraordinarily deep, it just needs to have literally any depth at all.
    That wouldn't fix anything about leveling, even if combat system was godlike.

    Back to topic. Game engine is too old for leveling (and questing in general) to be any fun. It lacks voice acting, animations, voice for your alts etc.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    That wouldn't fix anything about leveling, even if combat system was godlike.

    Back to topic. Game engine is too old for leveling (and questing in general) to be any fun. It lacks voice acting, animations, voice for your alts etc.

    Not all the awesome things need to happen at the same time. Voice acting animations..etc are nice to have but, the core needs fixing first. A good start would be to bring back Wrath talent trees, and class gameplay, make glyphs be meaningful by having them be closer to what today's talent system looks like. They could even make it so BfA talents are acquired after max level via an alternate progression path.

    I know there are and will always be cookie cutter builds, but the ability to pick one tree and choose talents from any of the remaining two trees is what makes it interesting. And I do not like having to first fully choose a tree, i wanna be able to mess around just for fun, otherwise what's the point of "hybrid". That's what playing a class feels like, not the spec-centric game wow has become today.
    Last edited by RemasteredClassic; 2019-06-16 at 02:20 AM.

  19. #19
    Leveling wont be fun because you are used to being max level. When you create a toon you are saying "I want to play this class at max level" and therefore the time you spend not a max level is a pain. Leveling in this game is fine. Its just that you need to change your perception of it.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by LedZeppelin View Post
    Leveling wont be fun because you are used to being max level. When you create a toon you are saying "I want to play this class at max level" and therefore the time you spend not a max level is a pain. Leveling in this game is fine. Its just that you need to change your perception of it.
    Casuals enjoy leveling more than end game and they are the majority. Stuck at end game means rerunning the same dungeons and raids over and over again. Not fun. The world is what makes the game immersive and fun. This can only be enjoyed via the questing and leveling process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EntertainmentNihilist View Post
    Ignore the haters in this thread OP. I would do three things:

    1. Make everything (at least vanilla-WoD) scale to any level. That way you can do what zones you want in whatever order you want.

    2. Add something vaguely like the old talent system in addition to the new (MoP+) talent system. To make sure the player gets choices and minor upgrades every level. Right now, most levels are just one number going up and a bar resetting.

    3. Make Legion and BFA world quests available from the beginning of leveling through that content. I've done all three Kul'Tiras zones leveling my alliance shaman and two of the Zandalar zones leveling my horde mage, once I do Nazmir on my next horde alt I will have no choice but to repeat the same zones I've already done. Personally, I despise that idea and would much rather be able to level up a character by doing world quests. Kinda like how in Diablo 3 you can level up a character in adventure mode by doing bounties and rifts now.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I completely disagree, between the lore, art-style, the history of warcraft 3, the characters, etc. I don't find any game world nearly as compelling as the Warcraft world. That's why I play WoW, i'm sure lots of games have gameplay I would enjoy more. But I haven't seen a single game world that grabs me like Warcraft.

    And I like WoW's story telling. Where each zone is a mostly linear story, but most zones are also self-contained, leaving open a large number of linear stories to choose from. I'm not a fan of how a lot of modern, open-world games just have your character wandering around doing one-off missions, very few of which connect to each-other.
    Really love the idea of world quests being available from, say level 10. I also like the idea of removing level brackets completely, since each zone has its own linear story that is not linked to the rest of the world. Which is nice since you keep getting fresh new mini-stories and lots of variety. It just needs to be replay-able in no specific order, especially when leveling alts, and enjoyable via a decent gameplay / talents system like that of Wrath.

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