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  1. #21
    From David Frum: "If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy."

    Quote Originally Posted by Saucexorzski View Post
    So the left is a human with a stick and the right is a bear in a cage, the left pokes the right gets piss, and justifies that the bear is dangrous, evil and needs to stay locked away. Then they laugh at the silly angry bear in the cage.
    The victim complex is strong with this one.
    "As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
    -H.L. Mencken, 1920

  2. #22
    Let's use Alabama and their abortion issue which is currently in the news.

    If Alabama voters want to ban abortions, should we force them to allow abortions?

    What good is democracy if the voters in a large state like Alabama can't use the power of the ballot box to shape the laws in the way they see fit?

    And they don't even want to ban abortion 100%, they just want to restrict it. Keep in mind that nearly every state in the union restricts abortion in some way.

    Let Alabama democracy do what the voters want to do.

    And don't bring up "what if they want to allow slavery?" On the scale of things the national government should get involved in, slavery is a 10, abortion isn't even a 1. 10 being something the fed should definitely get involved in.
    .

    "This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."

    -- Capt. Copeland

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by freefolk View Post
    Let's use Alabama and their abortion issue which is currently in the news.

    If Alabama voters want to ban abortions, should we force them to allow abortions?

    What good is democracy if the voters in a large state like Alabama can't use the power of the ballot box to shape the laws in the way they see fit?

    And they don't even want to ban abortion 100%, they just want to restrict it. Keep in mind that nearly every state in the union restricts abortion in some way.

    Let Alabama democracy do what the voters want to do.

    And don't bring up "what if they want to allow slavery?" On the scale of things the national government should get involved in, slavery is a 10, abortion isn't even a 1. 10 being something the fed should definitely get involved in.
    I think activists on either side of the issue would completely disagree with you on that.

    And why do you get to decide that it "isn't even a 1?"
    "As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
    -H.L. Mencken, 1920

  4. #24
    It is a interesting thought... there seems to be more effort to censor political opponents then find common ground. Both sides believe in destructive extremes it certainly seems like we have a powder keg on our hands.

    That said I can't see the concept of democracy dying. Being maimed perhaps but not dying.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by freefolk View Post
    Let's use Alabama and their abortion issue which is currently in the news.

    If Alabama voters want to ban abortions, should we force them to allow abortions?

    What good is democracy if the voters in a large state like Alabama can't use the power of the ballot box to shape the laws in the way they see fit?

    And they don't even want to ban abortion 100%, they just want to restrict it. Keep in mind that nearly every state in the union restricts abortion in some way.

    Let Alabama democracy do what the voters want to do.

    And don't bring up "what if they want to allow slavery?" On the scale of things the national government should get involved in, slavery is a 10, abortion isn't even a 1. 10 being something the fed should definitely get involved in.
    Do you know even know how a constitutional republic works?

    "If Alabama wanted to make slavery legal, should we force them to ban slavery?"

    Yes, that is how bad your argument is.

    Alabama put a complete ban on abortion, even for rape and incest.

    Luckily, the Supreme Court disagrees with you, as abortion is protected under the 14th Amendment,m just like slavery banned under the 13th Amendment. So, on a scale of 1-27, the slavery argument would be a 13, and the abortion one would be a 14.

    It's astounding that you don't even have any idea how a constitutional republic actually works. Seriously, you don't have a clue.

    https://www.npr.org/2019/05/14/72331...s-abortion-ban
    Last edited by Machismo; 2019-06-15 at 09:23 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  6. #26
    Truly spoken from a racist trash.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avskildhet View Post
    Liberalism needs to go away.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by ipaq View Post
    Truly spoken from a racist trash.
    Wanting liberalism gone isn't racist. Anyone that's not rich should want it gone.

  8. #28
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freefolk View Post
    Let's use Alabama and their abortion issue which is currently in the news.

    If Alabama voters want to ban abortions, should we force them to allow abortions?
    Given that banning abortions is an attack on women's basic human rights, yes.

    What good is democracy if the voters in a large state like Alabama can't use the power of the ballot box to shape the laws in the way they see fit?
    They do.

    What we're discussing is the difference between State and Federal scopes. And at the Federal level, Alabama doesn't get to overrule everyone else and mistreat their citizens.

    And they don't even want to ban abortion 100%, they just want to restrict it. Keep in mind that nearly every state in the union restricts abortion in some way.
    Hey, look, false equivalencies.

    Let Alabama democracy do what the voters want to do.
    If that's really what you want, secede first.

    Until that happens, they're only a State, and have to abide by Federal law.

    And don't bring up "what if they want to allow slavery?" On the scale of things the national government should get involved in, slavery is a 10, abortion isn't even a 1. 10 being something the fed should definitely get involved in.
    Given that we're talking about basic human rights, yes, it's absolutely something the federal government will have to step in for if States are attacking their citizens.

  9. #29
    He doesn't cite any evidence for his claims in that article. Like most articles I see in the Atlantic it is written in a way that presupposes that you are in agreement with the conclusion before you read it.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by freefolk View Post
    On the scale of things the national government should get involved in, slavery is a 10, abortion isn't even a 1. 10 being something the fed should definitely get involved in.
    But, what happens if a resident of a state with banned abortion, travels to another state to have a doctor perform it? There are cross state implications, thus requiring federal government.
    Entropy won't yield to you.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    I don’t work here, I only smoke here.

  11. #31
    Scarab Lord Milchshake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    He doesn't cite any evidence for his claims in that article. Like most articles I see in the Atlantic it is written in a way that presupposes that you are in agreement with the conclusion before you read it.
    Awww you're still triggered that Kevin Williamson got booted from the Atlantic. Desperately craving the validation of appearing in such an established magazine.

    I hear the National Review has him write some words. Kinda like pitty welfare for a partisan crank.

    He got like 12 billing on their Anti Socialism super issue this month.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Given that banning abortions is an attack on women's basic human rights, yes.
    It has never been a women's basic right and any women believing that is an utter narcissistic little twit and im pro abortion to an extent

  13. #33
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't an abortion thread, there are already a few of those out there if you want to rehash all this.
    /s

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Given that banning abortions is an attack on women's basic human rights, yes.



    They do.

    What we're discussing is the difference between State and Federal scopes. And at the Federal level, Alabama doesn't get to overrule everyone else and mistreat their citizens.



    Hey, look, false equivalencies.



    If that's really what you want, secede first.

    Until that happens, they're only a State, and have to abide by Federal law.



    Given that we're talking about basic human rights, yes, it's absolutely something the federal government will have to step in for if States are attacking their citizens.

    Who said it's a basic human right? Who decides that? The UN? We didn't decide that.

    If the people in Alabama want to limit abortion, who am I tell them they can't? I don't want them to tell me how to live either.

    I'm tired of the Supreme Court handing down edicts like the kings of old. I like democracy and I like local democracy where groups can decide how they want to live.
    .

    "This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."

    -- Capt. Copeland

  15. #35
    Scarab Lord Milchshake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draynay View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't an abortion thread, there are already a few of those out there if you want to rehash all this.
    That was one of the underlying points of the article.
    The Illiberal Right has nothing to offer but Culture War. They always lose arguments on Governance, Civil Rights, Voter Representation, and Economics.

    So they sound the horns of culture war to distract their base, or to drown out the arguments they cant win.

    Bad Faith 101.

  16. #36
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avskildhet View Post
    Liberalism needs to go away.
    It's either liberalism or fascism or communism. Liberal democracy is the only one that can survive over the long run because it's the only one that can adapt to new circumstances without violence or revolution.
    Last edited by PC2; 2019-06-15 at 11:57 PM.
    -------
    Fun fact of the month. All observations are theory-laden;
    Many theories, same data. Wittgenstein’s duckrabbit. Yanny vs Laurel.

  17. #37
    The Undying Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    I am a liberal in the sense I believe in society and communities holding the key to progress and problem solving. I also believe we are all equal, while not all being the same, I hold that the bee and the flower both have value, and one is not more important than the other.

    I am authoritarian because I believe in the rule of law in that the individual is not allowed more liberty at the expense of another by way of harm, the over all limits are where laws are written for everything, in place of where a humans intellect should guide.

    People otherwise should have the right to live their lives however they choose, even if that leads down a path I wouldn't take.

    I see the environment as being more than just the whether, but the climate, both natural and mankind.


    Lastly rights, should never be a privilege. They should be a social contract and agreed on by everyone, but that probably won't happen for a long time.
    "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker76 View Post
    The Illiberal Right has nothing to offer but Culture War.
    That's not true; they also have oligarchy.
    "As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
    -H.L. Mencken, 1920

  19. #39
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Unpopular opinion, we need to go back to a sort of elitist voting system. But instead of money being what makes you elite, it's your level of understanding of government, education and general knowledge all factor in.

    So to put it differently, people who bother to inform themselves properly get 10 votes, people who get all their news from propaganda channels like Fox news get 1.

  20. #40
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Probably not, since Liberalism is inherently flawed and the Left and Right both will rip its bloated corpse apart before finally duking it out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    сила лунной призмы составляет

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