Page 1 of 5
1
2
3
... LastLast
  1. #1
    Scarab Lord Milchshake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Publicly Shaming a Fascist
    Posts
    4,694

    Can Democracy Survive The Tantrum from the Illiberal Right?

    A really brilliant essay about the decline of some prominent Never Trumpers. They would throw democracy under the bus to hold onto the Forever Culture War. The people most willing to abandon the idea of liberal democracy are the ones least likely to face direct consequences for it.


    The Illiberal Right Throws a Tantrum
    Ahmari’s demands here outline the United States that illiberals would like to see: one that resembles Orbán’s Hungary, where rigged electoral systems ensure that political competition is minimal, the press is tightly controlled by an alliance between corporations and the state on behalf of the ruling party, national identity is defined in religious and ethnic terms, and cultural expressions are closely policed by the state to ensure compliance with that identity. It is no surprise that the vast majority of black and Latino Christians see a secular but pluralist left as more trustworthy allies than conservatives who rail against “poisonous and censorious multiculturalism,” and darkly warn of a plot to “displace American citizens.”

    […]

    The question of whether the Republican Party would abandon liberal democracy for sectarian ethno-nationalism was decided in the 2016 primary, and all French and Ahmari are doing is arguing about it after the fact. The commercial and social incentives for conservative writers to succumb to Trumpism are vast. Some, like French, have had the integrity to stick to their stated principles. Others, like Ahmari, have already fallen. Today’s skirmishes among conservatives resemble the irregulars in 1865 shooting at one another because they had not yet heard of Robert E. Lee’s surrender at Appomattox. And the support Ahmari has drawn suggests that the conservative intelligentsia will offer less resistance to authoritarianism than it did in 2015 and 2016.


    If you can read this paragraph and not shiver, you’re made of sterner stuff than me.
    • Black Americans did not abandon liberal democracy because of slavery, Jim Crow, and the systematic destruction of whatever wealth they managed to accumulate; instead they took up arms in two world wars to defend it.
    • Japanese Americans did not reject liberal democracy because of internment or the racist humiliation of Asian exclusion; they risked life and limb to preserve it.
    • Latinos did not abandon liberal democracy because of “Operation Wetback,” or Proposition 187, or because of a man who won a presidential election on the strength of his hostility toward Latino immigrants.
    • Gay, lesbian, and trans Americans did not abandon liberal democracy over decades of discrimination and abandonment in the face of an epidemic. This is, in part, because doing so would be tantamount to giving the state permission to destroy them, a thought so foreign to these defenders of the supposedly endangered religious right that the possibility has not even occurred to them.
    But it is also because of a peculiar irony of American history: The American creed has no more devoted adherents than those who have been historically denied its promises, and no more fair-weather friends than those who have taken them for granted.


    Declaring war on liberalism because…drag queens were doing readings at a public library could drive discussion on the right that would last for weeks.

    Serwer's fianl paragraph:

    Undetectable in the dispute on the right is any acknowledgment of the criticisms of liberal democracy by those who have been fighting for their fundamental rights in battles that are measured in decades and even centuries; that the social contract implicitly excluded them from the very rights white Christian men have been able to assert from the beginning. Perhaps to do so would be to acknowledge the fundamental immaturity underlying the American Orbánists’ critique: that what they describe as a crisis of liberal democracy is really just them not getting exactly what they want when they want it.

  2. #2
    Pandaren Monk Avskildhet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,762
    Declaring war on liberalism because…
    Liberalism needs to go away.

  3. #3
    So the left is a human with a stick and the right is a bear in a cage, the left pokes the right gets piss, and justifies that the bear is dangrous, evil and needs to stay locked away. Then they laugh at the silly angry bear in the cage.
    "It doesn't matter if you believe me or not but common sense doesn't really work here. You're mad, I'm mad. We're all MAD here."

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Avskildhet View Post
    Liberalism needs to go away.
    Why do you hate individual liberty?
    Your problem is that you’re more concerned about being precisely, factually, and semantically correct than about being morally right.

  5. #5
    Scarab Lord Milchshake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Publicly Shaming a Fascist
    Posts
    4,694
    Quote Originally Posted by Avskildhet View Post
    Liberalism needs to go away.
    How does one explain to a Stalinist that;

    Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty, consent of the governed, and equality before the law. Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support limited government, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), capitalism (free markets), democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion.

  6. #6
    Over 9000! Grimbold21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Azores, Portugal
    Posts
    9,392
    Is this another pointless label just for the sake of generating more online hit-pieces?

    If those are the criteria by which the group is defined, then call them what they are: authoritarians or fascists.

    People have seemingly grown an affection to come up with needless buzzwords.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker76 View Post
    How does one explain to a Stalinist that;

    Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty, consent of the governed, and equality before the law. Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support limited government, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), capitalism (free markets), democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion.
    Which has been adapted into status quo center-right politics which defends the accumulation of the means of production in the hands of the few.
    There are many definitions for the word, but the one used the most nowadays is for people like Obama or Hillary Clinton.

  8. #8
    Anung un Rama Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    58,627
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsonsion View Post
    Which has been adapted into status quo center-right politics which defends the accumulation of the means of production in the hands of the few.
    There are many definitions for the word, but the one used the most nowadays is for people like Obama or Hillary Clinton.
    Basically, there are two "classes" of liberalist thinking.

    The first is modern liberalism, where the focus is on individual, social liberties and freedoms. Civil rights and freedoms, equity between social groups, etc.

    The second is classical liberalism, more similar to its origins in the late 18th/early 19th Century, where the focus is stripped away from those social measures to focus almost exclusively on economic freedoms. "Companies should be able to rape and pillage whatever they want as long as they make a profit".

    The problem is that the two viewpoints are almost directly antithetical, but both share the label of "liberalism". The former is broadly left-wing, the latter is sharply and narrowly right-wing libertarian.

    Which is the default consideration for "liberal" is regional; in the EU, it's generally the latter, in North America, the former.
    Last edited by Endus; 2019-06-15 at 05:28 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Basically, there are two "classes" of liberalist thinking.

    The first is modern liberalism, where the focus is on individual, social liberties and freedoms. Civil rights and freedoms, equity between social groups, etc.

    The second is classical liberalism, more similar to its origins in the late 18th/early 19th Century, where the focus is stripped away from those social measures to focus almost exclusively on economic freedoms. "Companies should be able to rape and pillage whatever they want as long as they make a profit".

    The problem is that the two viewpoints are almost directly antithetical, but both share the label of "liberalism".
    Where are you getting that classical liberal definition from the late 18th century early 19th century? Like who said that? Like you would at least stick to the script and say the early 1930s and gaining prominence in the 80s with Reagan and Thatcher.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dsonsion View Post
    Which has been adapted into status quo center-right politics which defends the accumulation of the means of production in the hands of the few.
    There are many definitions for the word, but the one used the most nowadays is for people like Obama or Hillary Clinton.
    IDK dude, I like having civil rights and not have an angry mob protesting that their kids are being indoctrinated by the gay agenda just because they are going to learn other sexualities exist.

    cough cough con mis hijos no the metas cough cough
    Your problem is that you’re more concerned about being precisely, factually, and semantically correct than about being morally right.

  10. #10
    Pandaren Monk Avskildhet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,762
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbow Capitalist View Post
    Why do you hate individual liberty?
    Liberals are all about sucking companies and rich peoples dicks and fucking us over. Not implementing policies that are good for the people.
    Last edited by Avskildhet; 2019-06-15 at 05:51 PM.

  11. #11
    Anung un Rama Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    58,627
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbow Capitalist View Post
    Where are you getting that classical liberal definition from the late 18th century early 19th century? Like who said that? Like you would at least stick to the script and say the early 1930s and gaining prominence in the 80s with Reagan and Thatcher.
    Pretty much any source of history.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

    It's rooted in the works of Hobbes and Locke and Smith, and was the core political philosophy in the UK and the USA throughout the 19th Century.

    I really couldn't care what "script" you think I'm operating from, I'm going by the actual facts.

  12. #12
    Pandaren Monk Avskildhet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,762
    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker76 View Post
    How does one explain to a Stalinist that;

    Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty, consent of the governed, and equality before the law. Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support limited government, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), capitalism (free markets), democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion.
    Social democrats introduced universal right to vote for everyone. Poor people couldn't vote under the liberals rule, men had to have done military service, had to own lands/property, can't have committed crime.

    To this day, they're trying to dismantle our welfare state. No universal healthcare. To this day they're trying to erode worker protections. To this day, they're trying to make it close to impossible to live if you're not rich.

    I'm also not a stalinist.
    Last edited by Avskildhet; 2019-06-15 at 06:03 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Pretty much any source of history.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

    It's rooted in the works of Hobbes and Locke and Smith, and was the core political philosophy in the UK and the USA throughout the 19th Century.

    I really couldn't care what "script" you think I'm operating from, I'm going by the actual facts.
    John Locke literally defended the idea that workers owned the things they produced and put heavy emphasis on the consent of individuals. Like, what actual facts dude?
    Your problem is that you’re more concerned about being precisely, factually, and semantically correct than about being morally right.

  14. #14
    Anung un Rama Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    58,627
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbow Capitalist View Post
    John Locke literally defended the idea that workers owned the things they produced and put heavy emphasis on the consent of individuals. Like, what actual facts dude?
    Did you even bother reading the link?

  15. #15
    Elemental Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Behind You
    Posts
    8,641
    illiberal right......is this the new buzzword?
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    illiberal right......is this the new buzzword?
    it's a typo, they meant Nazis.
    "It doesn't matter if you believe me or not but common sense doesn't really work here. You're mad, I'm mad. We're all MAD here."

  17. #17
    Herald of the Titans Zaydin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    FL, USA
    Posts
    2,574
    Quote Originally Posted by Avskildhet View Post
    Liberals are all about sucking companies and rich peoples dicks and fucking us over. Not implementing policies that are good for the people.
    That's conservatives.
    "If you are ever asking yourself 'Is Trump lying or is he stupid?', the answer is most likely C: All of the Above" - Seth Meyers

  18. #18
    Pandaren Monk Avskildhet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,762
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydin View Post
    That's conservatives.
    And liberals.

    The conservatives also want to restrict abortion, LGBTQ rights and so on in addition.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Avskildhet View Post
    Liberals are all about sucking companies and rich peoples dicks and fucking us over. Not implementing policies that are good for the people.
    that would be republicans
    I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters.
    -Donald J Trump.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydin View Post
    That's conservatives.
    They're right. But not how you think. In Europe Liberal =/= USA way of saying Liberal. Liberal in Europe pretty much is Conservatives without the "Fuck women, LGBT and their like."

    As Avskildhet is Swedish they'll have the European view of the term.

    The push for rights comes from Social Democracy movements which would be closer to US Liberalism.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •