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  1. #21
    Banned sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    If the Americans and the British had not systematically destroyed the Germans industrial capabilities after 1943 the soviets would not have won the war. period!
    they would, just with more casualties, probably won't rise as a world power after ww2 (like what happened to UK)
    stalingrad broke the axis army, this battle is credited to be the start of end of ww2, and allies helped absolutely nothing in it

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by bungeebungee View Post
    The Germans operated extensively with u-boats just off the american coast and sunk many merchant vessels within visible distance from the shoreline. The "loose lips sink ships" campaign intended to hamper the Germans from getting an idea of how effective their performance was was so successful it actually erased this war from common history.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.

  3. #23
    Stood in the Fire Dentelan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    If the Americans and the British had not systematically destroyed the Germans industrial capabilities after 1943 the soviets would not have won the war. period!
    We would won without opening second front, and it was clear after Stalingrad Battle, this battle was gamechanger, not second front. US and Allies would helped MUCH if they opened second front earlier as Soviets asked, but they didnt.
    Only reason of opening second front was because of understanding, that as war goes on after Stalingrad, USSR will liberate whole Europe (except UK) and turn it red. Thats it. Let one super power fight with another and both will become weaker, but after it is clear who will be winner, do not let take him too much and choose side. So, in this story you dont have moral high-ground guys.
    Basically US and UK military role in WW2 is a joke. Lend-Lease was a big help, thats true. But talking about real war, more than 80% of all Nazi's losses were on eastern front, it was their best troops artillery etc.
    Last edited by Dentelan; 2019-06-16 at 10:49 AM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    If the Americans and the British had not systematically destroyed the Germans industrial capabilities after 1943 the soviets would not have won the war. period!
    Ending your posts with "period!" doesn't suddenly make what you post in them true.

    Even in a scenario as implausible as yours, Germany would still have been left with major oil shortages severely limiting operational capability.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    they would, just with more casualties, probably won't rise as a world power after ww2 (like what happened to UK)
    stalingrad broke the axis army, this battle is credited to be the start of end of ww2, and allies helped absolutely nothing in it
    Fun facts here. The german army in 1943 was actually stronger then in 1942 and that was after stalinggrad! Whatever advantage the soviets gained in destryong the 6th army in stalinggrad was squanderd in the third battle of karkov where they sufferd a major defeat. The battle that broke the back of the Germans was operation Bagration in 1944.

    And as usual many people do not take in account that supply lines and military equipment are FAR more important then manpower. The soviets had done an engineering miracle by moving their industrial base over the Urals but it also increased their supply lines by a good 500 km. Not a problem if you are fighting near moscow but a very big issue when you reach poland.

    Any battle on European soil would have been a massive advantage for the Germans in terms of equipment and supply lines .Good thing the Americans joined the war.

  6. #26
    Bloodsail Admiral clinophobia's Avatar
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    This guy here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4

    And again did Sabaton a song about some WW2 related stuff


  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    Ending your posts with "period!" doesn't suddenly make what you post in them true.

    Even in a scenario as implausible as yours, Germany would still have been left with major oil shortages severely limiting operational capability.
    And who do you think wrecked the Germans synthetic fuel production? Sure the fuel production was not enough for full scale panzer assaults but more then enough for panzers to remain operational in a defensive war.

  8. #28
    Had the confederacy won the Civil War, it likely alters the outcome of World War I. The USA and CSA might have even entered WWI on opposite sides. Germany may have won WWI or at least been able to broker a better peace. That means Germany never turns to following a far right extremist and WW2 never happens at all.

    Perhaps the key reason the Confederacy lost the Civil War was the fact that France refused to help. That set off a chain of events that led to Germany invading and conquering all of France. So by not helping the Confederacy, France almost ceased to exist.
    Last edited by Kokolums; 2019-06-16 at 11:38 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I want the ruins of K'aresh for 9.0 as I envision it as Netherstorm on steroids. A broken, shattered world. Eco-domes are stuck on various chunks to protect flora & fauna. I imagine a K'aresh ocean & maybe some islands contained in an eco dome or a snow-capped peak with some jungle valleys in another. Flesh version of Ethereals that never got altered. Space platforms as in Starcraft. Just a totally fantastic tileset & theme that I'd be very keen to explore. They could do some wild things.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    The war in the west was basically a sideshow. Consequential, but massively overblown in scope and importance.

    There were single battles on the Eastern Front where more men died than during the whole Italian/Western European campaigns.

    The Pacific war was even smaller in scale. Many more allies died and much more material was used fighting in Europe than in the Pacific.

    So to go back to what the role of the USSR was. They basically fought and won the war, with some help from the Western Allies.
    The Soviet was definitely the biggest fighter in the war in Europe but this is over stating it. With a total disregard for their own soldiers and some help from the weather they turned the tides for sure. It also helped that the Nazis thought of them as lesser humans.


    The "Pacific" was was also a huge operation unless you decide to be geographical in nature and ignore the whole war by the Japanese.

  10. #30
    I wouldn't necessarily say it's a little know fact, but I rarely hear it mentioned and have never seen it mentioned in schooling: Nazy Germany and Iran (formerly Persia) had a pretty involved relationship before, leading up to, and during the war. Simply version is that for a while, Hitler was considered a national hero in Iran, and their long economic history helped foster this relationship into the 1930's to where supposedly German influence had the official designation of Persia change to Iran. Iran means "Land of the Ayrans", and while the concept slightly differs between what Germany and Iran held concerning Aryans (racial versus cultural), it was the concept that tied the countries together while Iran did peddled/embraced the Nazi propaganda. On the surface, Iran was neutral through WW2, but they were likely upset as Russia and Great Britain for meddling in their affairs to the point where they were hoping Germany won the war despite some conflicts they had with Germany concerning policies involving the Jews at the time. Even to this day, quite a bit of the propaganda and ideology of the Nazis is still embraced in Iran, and is the source of concepts like "the Holocaust didn't happen or was vastly exaggerated". In the end, Iran was one of the only countries who didn't treat Germany like an enemy after the war, and post-WW2 the two countries were still quite friendly and involved with each other.

    Just went over that really briefly, but the entire subject is pretty lengthy and just a short entry doesn't do the back-and-forth relationship justice. There's even more discussion to be had concerning the German-Iranian relationship that still goes on to this day in various forms, but we're concentrating on WW2 stuff.
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  11. #31
    Considering US education, a little known fact is that the US didn't join the war until right at the end,and they certainly didn't win it for anyone else.
    RETH

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    And who do you think wrecked the Germans synthetic fuel production? Sure the fuel production was not enough for full scale panzer assaults but more then enough for panzers to remain operational in a defensive war.
    The Germans were never going to win the war with just defensive operations. You don't go from the sort of war of extermination the Germans had fought in the soviet union to anything less than complete capitulation.

    And it wasn't just armour that was suffering from it. A lot of synthetic fuel production made for poor aviation fuel without further costly investment, which in turn hurt the amount of training their fuel budget could afford pilots before seeing combat, as well as the amount of them, and how much the Luftwaffe could operate in general.

  13. #33
    I saw this and wanted to make a joke along the lines of "can't wait for all the alternative facts", but that was already impossible after the first post .

  14. #34
    The Insane PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Had the confederacy won the Civil War, it likely alters the outcome of World War I. The USA and CSA might have even entered WWI on opposite sides. Germany may have won WWI or at least been able to broker a better peace. That means Germany never turns to following a far right extremist and WW2 never happens at all.
    Hmm, bet there's a lot of fan fiction on the internet about that.

    I imagine that trench warfare would've broken out in North America, Canada, and US vs CSA, Mexico being some sort of wild card. It certainly would've ravished the continental US. The US itself would've been less of a financial backer in during WW2, assuming another war broke out. Germany probably would've ended up as a superpower with a lot of political influence in both the US and CSA.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    If the Americans and the British had not systematically destroyed the Germans industrial capabilities after 1943 the soviets would not have won the war. period!
    The allied bombing campaigns had limited affect on German industrial output.

    The obsessesion with hyperspecialized weapons and inability to take major logistical considerations into account in overall operational planning has done more harm to German military production than anything the allies have.

    Military aid in the form trucks and strategic resources to the USSR was a much much more meaningful contribution than the entire bombing campaign.

    By 1943 the Russians basically stabilized the Eastern Front.

    Again, one of the major immediate lessons learned after WW2 was that just how utterly ineffective carpet bombing is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  16. #36
    Over 9000! Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dundebuns View Post
    Considering US education, a little known fact is that the US didn't join the war until right at the end,and they certainly didn't win it for anyone else.
    The war started in 1939 and the US was attacked and entered the war in 1941. The war ended in 1945.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    In the end, Iran was one of the only countries who didn't treat Germany like an enemy after the war, and post-WW2 the two countries were still quite friendly and involved with each other.
    Which Germany were they friendly with, after the war?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angl...an_Oil_Company

    The Anglo-Persian Oil Company (APOC) was a British company founded in 1908 following the discovery of a large oil field in Masjed Soleiman, Iran. It was the first company to extract petroleum from Iran. In 1935 APOC was renamed the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (AIOC) when Reza Shah Pahlavi formally asked foreign countries to refer to Persia by its endonym Iran. In 1954 it was renamed again to the British Petroleum Company (BP), one of the antecedents of the modern BP public limited company, while its assets in Iran were nationalised and taken over by the National Iranian Oil Company. Britain's treasury purchased 51% of the company in 1914.
    Last edited by Felya; 2019-06-16 at 12:00 PM.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    The Germans were never going to win the war with just defensive operations. You don't go from the sort of war of extermination the Germans had fought in the soviet union to anything less than complete capitulation.

    And it wasn't just armour that was suffering from it. A lot of synthetic fuel production made for poor aviation fuel without further costly investment, which in turn hurt the amount of training their fuel budget could afford pilots before seeing combat, as well as the amount of them, and how much the Luftwaffe could operate in general.
    And the red army had its own supply problems. It would turn into a stalemate and sooner or later the Hitler or Stalin would be disposed of . With Hitler being the one that goes first since the Junker aristocracy hated his guts

  19. #39
    The Insane PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dundebuns View Post
    Considering US education, a little known fact is that the US didn't join the war until right at the end,and they certainly didn't win it for anyone else.
    Another known fact is that the US was involved as an in the war, it just didn't have a formal campaign going on. Germany didn't declare war on the US just because the US was fighting Japan, Germany had grown tired and frustrated with the US supplying and financing the Allies while being 'neutral'. The US was lending men but was 'not part of the war'.

    It was WW1 that the US did join until the end...

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    I was reading through the Hitler thread that got closed and really enjoyed reading all the information about the war, especially after I recently just finished watching Band of Brothers the other week.

    For example, I saw a gem from @The Knight who said that Uruguay declared war against the Axis in 1945. That's actually hilarious if true.

    Can we continue the side convos that we're going in in that thread here?

    And let's please respect the mods wishes and not discuss Hitler at all.

    But rather more from strategies used by both sides you found interesting, how the allies coordinated on such unfathomable levels (imagine the logistical nightmare), the USSR's role, and anything else you find interesting.
    Why can we not discuss Hitler I ask.
    Is that how we deal with history when it is unpleasant, pretend it never happened and ban discussing it?
    Im not jabbing at you, but these mods are a joke, if you want to have an off-topic forum, then most topics should be allowed, whats wrong with discussing history.
    Am i also not allowed to discuss Gengis Kahn, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, etc?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Had the confederacy won the Civil War, it likely alters the outcome of World War I. The USA and CSA might have even entered WWI on opposite sides. Germany may have won WWI or at least been able to broker a better peace. That means Germany never turns to following a far right extremist and WW2 never happens at all.

    Perhaps the key reason the Confederacy lost the Civil War was the fact that France refused to help. That set off a chain of events that led to Germany invading and conquering all of France. So by not helping the Confederacy, France almost ceased to exist.
    Pity they didnt cease to exist.

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