About the depth of talent trees

[Fred Skinner]

Well, WoWs character customization and options are really low. If i remember right, they removed the complex talent system because they argued with the availability of cookie cutter builds, which would make options none existing.

If you think about it, even with the small number of options there still are cookie cutter builds.

Which means, that in consequence the level of complexity has nothing to do with the fact many people will just copy paste a talent build from their favourite web page.

Which means, that blizzard could also add a way more complex system to give character depth and a possibility to make characters more unique outside of the idea to make it perform most.

And in general, blizzard should think about the idea to disencourage performance as the only means of valid talent builds. Which could be achieved by a degree of horizontal progression, based on giving rewards that help you on your own subjective playstyle. As like having special gear and talents for dungeons, as like having special gear and talents for pvp, for damage dealing, for healing which would allow a myriad of combinations instead of just .. 7.. based on the spec.

Blizzards argument to reduce the number of talents has proven void, so the consequence should be to add a talent system 3.0, the removal of specs and the free choice of skills you could use for your very own playstyle.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I’ll pass on any removal of specs. Keep talents as they are Mabye add in a second tree like the artifact for people who want the rush of a +1.

[Shaqthefat]

This would be a really great idea for killing off the remaining player base.

People don't want their characters to be unique, they want their specs to be unique. Less options =/= Bad design


There is no way to discourage performance as the way people build talents. They can try all they like and they will only just make the game worse and people will stop playing. They've tried to limit how much raiders are able to play and gear their characters with the implementation of things like boss attempt limits and the removal of things like master loot. The players have always found a way around. If people want to play at peak performance they are going too and if they can't they will stop playing.

People need to stop thinking that the desire to be better as a bad thing, because it's only going to kill off the game. The play style of these people is optimizing their play so they are able to perform at maximum efficiency.

[vertigo12]

Plus the fact that same talents vs other players has variance and gradient. Not all talents are of the same caliber or that person has invested enough interest in focusing on that talent thus a dynamic talent system.

[PenguinChan]

With the way WoW is built, the better option to making more unique builds and classes would be to redesign how mobs work and the way you interact with them. Currently, it's very straight forward and you just DPS, Heal, or tank very linearly in almost all content. If they instead made it so you had to use more than just your basic rotation, they could provide a better variance in your talent choices and also the way specializations work. Removing specs is a bad idea, considering the flavors are rather nice even if they aren't that different. It's better to reinforce the specs we have and redo other things that wouldn't directly interfere with a player as badly.

[Sethus]

they removed the complex talent system

WoW never had a complex talent system. If we're going to discuss talents let's start by not lying to ourselves.

If you think about it, even with the small number of options there still are cookie cutter builds.

There will always be cookie cutter builds. 10 or 500 talents is irrelevant, simulators will break it down to pieces and formulate the best talent build for each situation.

Which means, that in consequence the level of complexity has nothing to do with the fact many people will just copy paste a talent build from their favourite web page.

Again, this has always been and always will be the case. Except maybe in the earliest days when there were no guides available online and WoW was still brand new and undiscovered.

Blizzards argument to reduce the number of talents has proven void.

False. We used to have ~15 talents per spec, now we have 30.

[Big Thanks]

WoW never had a complex talent system. If we're going to discuss talents let's start by not lying to ourselves.


There will always be cookie cutter builds. 10 or 500 talents is irrelevant, simulators will break it down to pieces and formulate the best talent build for each situation.


Again, this has always been and always will be the case. Except maybe in the earliest days when there were no guides available online and WoW was still brand new and undiscovered.


False. We used to have ~15 talents per spec, now we have 30.

There will never be a cookie cutter build for all situations of PvP. NEVER

There will never be a cookie cutter build for all situations in World content. NEVER

There is only cookie cutter for raiding, single target, aoe.

[Pandragon]

Well, WoWs character customization and options are really low. If i remember right, they removed the complex talent system because they argued with the availability of cookie cutter builds, which would make options none existing.

If you think about it, even with the small number of options there still are cookie cutter builds.

It wasn't to necessarily "remove cookie cutter builds", anyone with a basic understanding of math knows there will always be a best choice, it was to remove the 800 fluff talents. 1% to damage here, or 1% to defense there. They were completely useless talents that created an illusion of choice. Basically it was to make you feel good for leveling up by giving you something to put a point into every level.

Any type of talent tree that has any kind of offensive or defensive traits will create cookie cutter builds. For Blizzard to create actual customization the trees need to be split into rows that benefit one kind of fight style, and then balance them between that.

Like for Windwalker, having 1 row for single target that say, causes Tiger palm to strike the target with lightning, then one talent that causes Tiger Palm to dash you and strike with a furry of hits, and one talent that causes Tiger Palm to generate an extra chi, or always trigger blackout strike or something. Then balance these 3 so they are even with each other letting you pick the one you want.

[huth]

There will never be a cookie cutter build for all situations of PvP. NEVER

There will never be a cookie cutter build for all situations in World content. NEVER

There is only cookie cutter for raiding, single target, aoe.

Not for all situations, sure. But for every situation. PvP is probably the least susceptible because you aren't in full control of the encounter variables, so there's no way for you to ensure you have the correct build for the encounter.
@Pandragon that wouldn't work because one talent is always going to be objectively best, so all you'd achieve is two talents per row that nobody uses, outside of utility rows.

[Clbull]

Three words: Path of Exile

If Grinding Gear Games can add a complex talent tree system to their ARPG without compromising on build diversity, then it's further evidence that the Great Dumbing Down of Talent Trees in Mists was a big mistake. Blizzard's "less is more" philosophy has been slowly destroying the game, which is why private servers surged in popularity and why competitors like Final Fantasy XIV are seeing higher subscriber counts.

Regardless of whether you give players 51 talent points over 60 levels or 7 talent points over 120, the result will still be the same. Theorycrafters will strive to min-max the fuck out of their character and will mathematically figure out what the best build is. And with that information widely available in the form of spreadsheets and class guides, people will be playing the exact same cookie cutter specs.

[huth]

Three words: Path of Exile

If Grinding Gear Games can add a complex talent tree system to their ARPG without compromising on build diversity, then it's further evidence that the Great Dumbing Down of Talent Trees in Mists was a big mistake. Blizzard's "less is more" philosophy has been slowly destroying the game, which is why [...] competitors like Final Fantasy XIV are seeing higher subscriber counts.

You mean the FFXIV that doesn't have talents at all? I very much doubt that is the reason.

I'd question how much you can transfer from PoE to WoW, as well.

[Nerovar]

This would be a really great idea for killing off the remaining player base.

People don't want their characters to be unique, they want their specs to be unique. Less options =/= Bad design


There is no way to discourage performance as the way people build talents. They can try all they like and they will only just make the game worse and people will stop playing. They've tried to limit how much raiders are able to play and gear their characters with the implementation of things like boss attempt limits and the removal of things like master loot. The players have always found a way around. If people want to play at peak performance they are going too and if they can't they will stop playing.

People need to stop thinking that the desire to be better as a bad thing, because it's only going to kill off the game. The play style of these people is optimizing their play so they are able to perform at maximum efficiency.

"The tried system that was in place during the peak of the game would kill the game because people don't want it."

[huth]

"The tried system that was in place during the peak of the game would kill the game because people don't want it."

It was also in place when the game started to decline. Which makes it likely it didn't have much to do with either.

[Nerovar]

It was also in place when the game started to decline. Which makes it likely it didn't have much to do with either.

I'm not the guy who's making ludicrously strong claims.
Don't you think it's unlikely for players to leave in droves because of a system they used to have no problem with?

[Drusin]

Which means, that in consequence the level of complexity has nothing to do with the fact many people will just copy paste a talent build from their favourite web page.

Yep, I always tell people to just go to WarcraftLogs Rankings and look at their spec. It'll show you all the most frequently used talents https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/ra...d&spec=Balance

People need to stop thinking that the desire to be better as a bad thing

I think people hate it because of groups with high standards relative to the content they are doing. Only inviting meta specs for M0, requiring AOTC the first couple months for normal, etc.

WoW never had a complex talent system. If we're going to discuss talents let's start by not lying to ourselves.

Probably meant more complex than now.

False. We used to have ~15 talents per spec, now we have 30.

explain plz

There will never be a cookie cutter build for all situations of PvP. NEVER

There will never be a cookie cutter build for all situations in World content. NEVER

There is only cookie cutter for raiding, single target, aoe.

How do you define cookie cutter? If someone were to say to me "let's go do +5 MSNBC" and I went to go lookup what spec everyone uses for MSNBC that to me is the cookie cutter build for MSNBC. If Blizz made a raid with 20 bosses and each fight took a vastly (as vast as can be with the # of talents lol) different build but everyone used the same build then that's 20 cookie cutter builds. Cookie cutter to me just means you're going with the popular consensus for the content you're doing, not that there exists ONE BUILD TO RULE THEM ALL! lol

[Azalar]

I'd honestly rather have a linear streamline of enhancements and talents I know I'm gonna need as I level up rather than a wall of situational choices.

[jack1995]

that is less work for them

[sam86]

or return back to the old system that ppl really love?

[Big Thanks]

How do you define cookie cutter? If someone were to say to me "let's go do +5 MSNBC" and I went to go lookup what spec everyone uses for MSNBC that to me is the cookie cutter build for MSNBC. If Blizz made a raid with 20 bosses and each fight took a vastly (as vast as can be with the # of talents lol) different build but everyone used the same build then that's 20 cookie cutter builds. Cookie cutter to me just means you're going with the popular consensus for the content you're doing, not that there exists ONE BUILD TO RULE THEM ALL! lol

PvP is as fluid as water.
It doesnt fall to the same category that is a scripted event like raiding (it doesnt fall to the cookie cutter problem)

Examples:
Glass cannon build
Survival Build
Utility Build
A mix of survival and damage

There are endless possibilities for PvP...it doesnt fall in the cookie cutter situation.

[sam86]

How do you define cookie cutter?

there was never cookie cutter builds in first place, ppl have memory of fish, blizz had nightmare time to balance talents every patch, check any patch note prior to MoP change, and u'll find every single patch with loads of talent balance/change, something that rare to none now
there was popular builds that ppl follow, and even then i remember shaman specially (since my best friend irl was playing main shaman) never had a cookie cutter build for entire wrath, no one until end of wrath was sure what was best talent for even single target dps, talent changes with how much haste and stats u have etc

Still new build or old one, i think everyone agree that not introduce any new talent at all in BFA is bullsh8t, even WoD gave us new talents