Page 2 of 13 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
12
... LastLast
  1. #21
    Windfury totem p00nage

    but I think Blessing Salvation is better for raid.
    threat is big deal in Classic

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by stevepelle91 View Post
    Alliance for PVE, Horde for PVP. As a poster mentioned above, Alliance is mathematically superior because of pally salv buffs. Horde does have 20% threat from tranquil air, but shamans are almost always going to use windfury totems. To do maximum dps in late game raids, it's all about threat management.

    In practice, a strong/dedicated guild is going to succeed as either faction.
    You could have both Tranquil and windfurry totem buff at a same time with proper totem dancing. Just saying.

  3. #23
    Alliance racials are better for PvE.
    i7-6700K @ 4.6GHz | ASRock Fatal1ty Z170 Gaming K6+ | 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4-3000/CL15 @ 3200/CL14 | MSI GTX 1070 Gaming X | 256GB Samsung EVO 850 PRO | 2TB WD2003FZEX | 2TB WD20EFRX | Creative Sound Blaster Z | Thermalright Silver Arrow IB-E Extreme | Corsair RM650x | Cooler Master HAF X | Logitech G400s | Tt eSPORTS POSSEIDON | Kingston HyperX Cloud II | BenQ XL2411T + LG 24MK430

  4. #24
    Fear Ward carried my terrible ass through raiding in Classic, lol.
    "It's 2013 and I still view the internet on a 560x192 resolution monitor!"

  5. #25
    The Insane FelPlague's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Ontario,Canada
    Posts
    19,329
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    You could have both Tranquil and windfurry totem buff at a same time with proper totem dancing. Just saying.
    and then you run outta mana in only a few secodns until boom your outta mana and useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  6. #26
    Legendary! Raugnaut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Frogspoison#1419 Battletag
    Posts
    6,468
    Fear Ward is there because otherwise Alliance would be FAR behind Horde, who can nullify fears with Tremor Totem. Otherwise, you just had to prey that your tank didn't get crit too much during one of the many, MANY fears around in Vanilla raids.
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    and then you run outta mana in only a few secodns until boom your outta mana and useless.
    Totem dancing was a thing. Just not for resto shamans. While I don't have mana cost table in front of me, I believe keeping both windfurry and grace of air was more mana intensive but was still utilized.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Villentretenmerth View Post
    BoS and BoK > Horde
    And fear ward. Tremor totems were unreliable at best.

  9. #29
    The Insane FelPlague's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Ontario,Canada
    Posts
    19,329
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    Totem dancing was a thing. Just not for resto shamans. While I don't have mana cost table in front of me, I believe keeping both windfurry and grace of air was more mana intensive but was still utilized.
    it was not possible really until wotlk when you were actually able to find mail Mp5 gear.
    vanilal didnt really have that so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    it was not possible really until wotlk when you were actually able to find mail Mp5 gear.
    vanilal didnt really have that so.
    Ofc it is possible. It doesnt overcome Alliance advantage though.
    i7-6700K @ 4.6GHz | ASRock Fatal1ty Z170 Gaming K6+ | 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4-3000/CL15 @ 3200/CL14 | MSI GTX 1070 Gaming X | 256GB Samsung EVO 850 PRO | 2TB WD2003FZEX | 2TB WD20EFRX | Creative Sound Blaster Z | Thermalright Silver Arrow IB-E Extreme | Corsair RM650x | Cooler Master HAF X | Logitech G400s | Tt eSPORTS POSSEIDON | Kingston HyperX Cloud II | BenQ XL2411T + LG 24MK430

  11. #31
    The Insane FelPlague's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Ontario,Canada
    Posts
    19,329
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    Ofc it is possible. It doesnt overcome Alliance advantage though.
    would need to stack mp5 cloth gear and do nothing but totem twist but i ugess...
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  12. #32
    I am Murloc! Cairhiin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Finland/Holland
    Posts
    5,703
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Fear Ward is there because otherwise Alliance would be FAR behind Horde, who can nullify fears with Tremor Totem. Otherwise, you just had to prey that your tank didn't get crit too much during one of the many, MANY fears around in Vanilla raids.
    Tremor does not prevent the tank from getting feared. It is not a safe way to tank. Better off speccing into Death Wish.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrihm View Post
    It's almost like Paladins and Fear Ward push them above any horde racial.

    I wish people who never actually played back then would stop acting like they know anything. It's really cringe.
    And even people who actually played vanilla have been saying it: Paladins + Fear ward are just too good for PvE making alliance the better pve faction, especially in AQ & Naxx when casters are getting better gear aswell and start competing on damage - horde has no buffs for them. However horde has the better pvp classes and racials - orc stun resist + windfury that can just "onehit" + undead will of the forsaken

    It's all going to come down on what your main focus will be on, PvP? Go horde! PvE? Go Alliance

  14. #34
    Herald of the Titans Alex86el's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Greece-EU
    Posts
    2,589
    Alliance better racials???? WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF XD

    Minmaxer raiders will go alliance because of paladins (BoS)

    But i'm pretty sure on pvp servers the horde will massively outnumber the alliance.
    Their racials cant even compare to the alliance ones, it's crazy.
    Plus, everyone wants to join the cool kids bandwagon.

    For dedicated PvPers it's a tie imo.
    On alliance side you will have much shorter queues, paladins, and a much easier time getting to rank 14.
    But on horde side you will have OP racials and half a dozen exploits in WSG.

    Tough to choose.

    Except for streamers of course.
    They need to join the more marketable/popular faction and shout furduhuuuurrrdd 24/7.

  15. #35
    Scarab Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Nova Scotia
    Posts
    4,222
    It's mostly because paladins can buff an entire raid while shamans can't. I believe you get every major blessing with just 4 paladins (might, wisdom, salvation, kings), while horde would need a shaman in every group.

    Let's just assume that threat doesn't exist (it does).

    For melee DPS it's 185 AP from might and 10% to strength/agility. King's isn't super massive, and while I'm omitting other gear slots, all 9 pieces of Bonescythe give 114 strength and 154 agility. This is mostly because Vanilla doesn't tack on an absurd amount of primary stats between tiers, primary does on average incrementally increase, but most of the budget generally goes towards swapping primary stats out for things like crit and hit percentages. Also some pieces of gear just have primary stats aside from stamina, and just have pure attack power or spell power.

    For casters on alliance side they get the benefit of kings and wisdom.

    For melee DPS on horde you get 77 strength from SoE and the choice between 77 agility from GoA, or windfury totem.

    For casters on horde you get mana spring totem, which is the horde variant of wisdom, yet a little bit worse.

    The above is highly simplified because there are numerous problems with how shamans work as opposed to paladins. To get maximum benefit of shaman you need them in every single group and totems only have a 30 yard range. Paladin buffs work regardless of what group they sit in, and aren't restricted to range. For the "most" part, the range really isn't a huge deal in PvE as most encounters don't require massive amount of movement (a lot of encounters are mostly stationary). An additional problem with shaman totems however is that they only have 2 minute duration, where greater blessings will absolutely last any fight length in Vanilla WoW.

    Throwing threat back into the picture and all the disadvantages that totems bring (in addition to Alliance having more freedom to have mostly whatever healing composition they want), casters easily win on alliance compared to their horde counterpart. Mana spring is worse than wisdom, tranquil air is worse than salvation, and there is nothing that compares to BoK for horde casters.

    Horde side for melee actually gets quite a bit more interesting because the above limitations aren't exactly as I laid them out to be. In TBC it was pretty well known, especially once Sunwell hit, and with enhancement shaman actually being a desirable spec, that you could effectively have both windfury totem and grace of air down at the same time. You would lose slight uptime on GoA (not really noticeable), but due to how windfury totem actually worked, you could actually twist totems, dancing between the two every 10 seconds to keep both of them up. This effectively removed the limitation of one air totem, and allowed horde DPS to actually have both totems.

    If you're talking fully min/maxed raids using every buff and consumable known, fight times are pretty short, and any shaman could effectively spend a couple GCDs twisting totems even in Vanilla, while still healing somewhat effectively. In this scenario, WF/GoA/SoE is superior to might and kings that alliance enjoy (keep in mind, alliance rogues/warriors can use sharpening stones or poisons too). The problem however is again, threat. While this isn't nearly as big of a deal for rogues, it's a pretty big limitation for warriors and warriors as most know are generally the best DPS in the last tiers of raiding. You could twist WF and tranquil air totems instead of GoA (and for warriors, this is probably still superior to what alliance get), but at the end of the day tranquil air is still worse than salvation.

    I didn't really math this out but I think on paper, where threat isn't a thing, a Horde raid group would have higher theoretical DPS. Totem twisting shaman in a world where threat doesn't exist is pretty strong. That said, I don't think it's super massive advantage either way, but if you're talking about min/maxing, Alliance is the way to go for raiding.

    The bane of horde raiding compared to alliance in vanilla was simply salvation. Tranquil air was a response late in vanilla to shaman and horde complaints for well over a year until Blizzard finally caved. Threat while always an issue, wasn't as much of an issue in the earlier raiding tiers because warriors were still gearing up, and because people were generally bad at the game, you generally didn't have a billion DPS warriors (most of them were ghetto tanks, in the event that your primary tanks died). Once the general raiding population saw the potential of warrior DPS (both through gearing, and the lack of a need for a shit load of tanks), people started realizing that threat was actually a pretty real problem (at least horde groups noticed this). Seriously, if you could take a time machine back to 2004-2006, it was just filled with "totems have baby dick range" and "blessing of salvation is way too good".

  16. #36
    Well the Alliance has Paladins and dwarf priests that have Fear Ward, so in PVE they should be the better faction. Also afaik gnome casters do have a somewhat important dps gain too.

    In PVP, the Horde will be the stronger faction, as always. Paladins are amazing in PVP, but so are shamans as well and the Horde simply has way better racials that are also easy to use and applicable in any situation.

  17. #37
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Metachronopolis
    Posts
    28,912
    Quote Originally Posted by Dekkers View Post
    threat is big deal in Classic
    True. One reason why optimal DPS is less important than people think. Often enough you have to ramp back a bit because of threat. It's something that needs to be managed.
    To contact global moderators with moderation issues please PM any of the following:
    Tziva ■ Radux ■ Simca ■ Elysia ■ Zaelsino ■ xskarma ■ Arlee ■ Venara
    When people tell you something’s wrong or doesn’t work for them, they are almost always right. When they tell you exactly what they think is wrong and how to fix it, they are almost always wrong.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Cairhiin View Post
    Tremor does not prevent the tank from getting feared. It is not a safe way to tank. Better off speccing into Death Wish.
    O just play Undead

  19. #39
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    World of Wisconsin
    Posts
    31,321
    Seeing a lot of folks talking about going Horde. I think that ultimately what you played on Retail is what you'll play on Classic.

    Plus I believe Method is already comitted to Horde soooooo yeah.
    WoW: Wyrmrest Accord - Alliance
    Classic: Bloodsail Buccaneers - Alliance
    FFXIV: Crystal Datacenter (Balmung & Mateus servers)
    "In the spirit of education, the first thing I would like to impress upon you is one of the most surprising lessons I learned: Public speculation is always wrong. Always." - John Staats, The WoW Diary

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrasherr View Post
    I don’t know where people are getting alliance racial are better in classic? Must be alliance bias but horde racials are far superior in classic.
    In the era when threat actually meant your dps had to hold back being able to have paladins to put salvation your dps was huge. In the era when a feared tank lost all aggro and bosses went wild being able to have a dward priest with fear ward was huge. Those two things, among others.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •