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  1. #61
    Most likely Horde to be honest

  2. #62
    Shamans makes some later fights a lot easier and paladins make other fights easier (mostly in early raids). So i think horde will dominate the raiding scene.

  3. #63
    Mechagnome Storfan's Avatar
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    Alliance racials and paladin buffs make alliance better at PvE
    Horde racials make horde better at PvP.

    Quote Originally Posted by collax View Post
    Ultra hardcore raider can get more from horde in raiding (more dps potential), but alliance is alot easier pve wise.
    On Horde side Fury warriors and fire mages (rolling ignites) will be threatcapped in many fights in AQ40/Naxx. This wont be an issue for alliance due to salvation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Annelie View Post
    Shamans makes some later fights a lot easier and paladins make other fights easier (mostly in early raids). So i think horde will dominate the raiding scene.
    I can only think of one example where Shamans make a big difference in difficulty: Viscidus. For all other content, Paladins reign supreme.
    Last edited by Storfan; 2019-06-17 at 09:45 AM.
    “Listen... Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.” – Dennis

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathasil View Post
    Shadowmeld was a PvP-waylay ability in Classic. No in-combat use at all. It became a "vanish" in WotLK.


    What i meant by the paragraph you quoted is rather simple: Is it theoretically possible that 2 or 3 guilds decide to "prove to the world that Horde can do it" and no-life through MC to claim Worldfirst? Yes. It is totally possible, because especially in the beginning when rogues are still stronger than fury-warriors Salvation is far less of a factor and logistics are by FAR the most deciding factor in who kills what first. Salvation will become more important much later in the phases.

    But does a single-digit number of Horde guilds that try and go for worldfirst "mean" anything when almost everybody will play Alliance? You can look at the actual numbers in classic 14 years ago or at the current numbers: The Horde is dead without Blood Elves. And today male models actually have faces instead of ugly flesh-wounds. I see no way in hell for the Horde to be the more played faction in classic. It simply is too ugly for the majority of players. And with logistics being so important for 40man raiding this automatically means that the chances for the Horde to end up as the more active raiding faction are very, very slim.

    Right now at this very moment there are 12 Alliance guilds that cleared mythic Crucible while the Horde HoF filled up last night. Do these 12 Alliance guilds "mean" something? They prove that Alliance is capable of clearing the content....but if you actually want to PLAY the content right now then those numbers simply say "Go Horde, dude"
    Okay I'll spell it out for you:

    The are no world firsts. The last world first of vanilla was 07/09 2006. It was Kel'thuzad by Nihilum.

    Just like a new server doesn't mean there's a new contest for world first on live servers.


    You can read more here https://www.method.gg/raid-history

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    O just play Undead
    Undead tank is definitely OP. Timing berzrage and wotf correctly you can counter pretty much any fear. Wotf counters MC's as well which can simplify a few fights.
    "Those who dance appear insane to those who can't hear the music." ~~ George Carlin


  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by HavokHeart View Post
    Undead tank is definitely OP.
    Gonna want that axe skill from Orcs imo. Edges out the HP from Tauren and WotF for those fights that it is useful for. 5 Axe skill is effectively 3% hit rating vs bosses due to the change in roll table. Unless that was all a myth.
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    Oh, and stop being a "didn't do that in vanilla"-police. If we're doing something now that we didnt do back then, it's not because we had some sorta unwritten moral code back then, it's because we hadn't thought of it yet.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Gonna want that axe skill from Orcs imo. Edges out the HP from Tauren and WotF for those fights that it is useful for. 5 Axe skill is effectively 3% hit rating vs bosses due to the change in roll table. Unless that was all a myth.
    People really underestimate troll tanks. Troll tanks are one of the best tanks in the game(IMO) thanks to how aggro generation scales with attack speed. 10% of attack speed is no joke and if you get 20-25% of attack speed, it's really godly.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    People really underestimate troll tanks. Troll tanks are one of the best tanks in the game(IMO) thanks to how aggro generation scales with attack speed. 10% of attack speed is no joke and if you get 20-25% of attack speed, it's really godly.
    It also causes more tank damage thanks to faster attacks that can be parried and counterattacked.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    People really underestimate troll tanks. Troll tanks are one of the best tanks in the game(IMO) thanks to how aggro generation scales with attack speed. 10% of attack speed is no joke and if you get 20-25% of attack speed, it's really godly.
    Fair enough. The only troll warriors I ever encountered were hunting High Warlord but I'll be the first to admit my experiences are very limited. We had tauren and undead tanks in our guild and all of us (I was one of the Tauren) regretted not rolling Orc for the threat. But (un)fortunately we were all "new" to pirate servers and "vanilla" systems so we were learning from each other and maybe we were all wrong

    Also we were playing at a content level where getting hit capped was very tough while staying near def cap, so that may have given us bias.
    Last edited by AeneasBK; 2019-06-17 at 01:58 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    Oh, and stop being a "didn't do that in vanilla"-police. If we're doing something now that we didnt do back then, it's not because we had some sorta unwritten moral code back then, it's because we hadn't thought of it yet.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Annelie View Post
    It also causes more tank damage thanks to faster attacks that can be parried and counterattacked.
    Yea, tradeoff. If healers can keep tank up, they can completely negate this issue, while DPS still can push out more damage.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Annelie View Post
    It also causes more tank damage thanks to faster attacks that can be parried and counterattacked.
    More tank damage = more rage = more threat = win/win. If healers can't keep you alive they suck, bloody healers. Bet it was the priests.
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    Oh, and stop being a "didn't do that in vanilla"-police. If we're doing something now that we didnt do back then, it's not because we had some sorta unwritten moral code back then, it's because we hadn't thought of it yet.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    More tank damage = more rage = more threat = win/win. If healers can't keep you alive they suck, bloody healers. Bet it was the priests.
    Tanks dont have rage problems on raidbosses.

  13. #73
    I hope everybody understands that regardless of what class/race/spec raids will still be cleared quickly and easily so min/max is going to pretty pointless.

    Its like people are being over dramatic about how difficult classic is going to be after spending several years playing the game...

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Annelie View Post
    Tanks dont have rage problems on raidbosses.
    In my experience that's only true on Vael; but that may well be simply me not having enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    Oh, and stop being a "didn't do that in vanilla"-police. If we're doing something now that we didnt do back then, it's not because we had some sorta unwritten moral code back then, it's because we hadn't thought of it yet.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrasherr View Post
    I don’t know where people are getting alliance racial are better in classic? Must be alliance bias but horde racials are far superior in classic.
    Honeslty for all the agonizing people do about racials they barely matter in PvE. Only the weapon specializations really help in PvE content. Alliance however get Pallys ,who buffs are magnitudes better then Shammys and have Divine Intervention (used to cheese many encounters) and Dwarf Priest who get Fear Ward (used to chease many encounters)

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Gonna want that axe skill from Orcs imo. Edges out the HP from Tauren and WotF for those fights that it is useful for. 5 Axe skill is effectively 3% hit rating vs bosses due to the change in roll table. Unless that was all a myth.
    You won't be using an axe as a tank for very long so axe skill is borderline worthless overall. When you're using an axe sure it will be great for that short period but for the vast majority of the game you will be using a sword.
    It's like considering troll as the best dps race only because of beast slaying that gives you a 5% dmg buff vs beasts.
    Hell i am sure tanks were actually using daggers if they weren't using swords in most cases.

    For main tanking in guilds to optimize you either want to be undead or troll.
    Undeads can preemptively immune fears which would cause them to drop agro until they broke it with berserker rage, require less stance dancing so less rage lost which is more tps.
    Troll berserking will increase your tps, especially if you manage to hit it when you are low health to gain the full 25% attack speed which is ridiculous tps with a thunderfury.

    Orcs and Taurens are vastly overrated as the go to tanks, orc warrior is one of the most common race class combos which naturally made them more likely than any other race to be main tank, they weren't main tanks for any other reason other than the natural majority of horde warriors were orcs, the only real strengths an orc tank has over the others is stun resist which is really only applicable in dungeon tanking.
    Taurens increased 5% hp is so overrated as well, it can be likened to troll regeneration, sounds great on paper until you actually do the math and realise that the final number is absolutely trivial. It's like just over 400 hp by the time you're fully buffed in naxx gear.


    For alliance it's simply Human because sword spec.
    Last edited by Yes but actually no; 2019-06-17 at 03:32 PM.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    You could have both Tranquil and windfurry totem buff at a same time with proper totem dancing. Just saying.
    unless you have an enhancement shaman which is unlikely, Resto shamans are not going to be wasting 2 GCD's to totem dance on boss fights

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bhanzai View Post
    I hope everybody understands that regardless of what class/race/spec raids will still be cleared quickly and easily so min/max is going to pretty pointless.

    Its like people are being over dramatic about how difficult classic is going to be after spending several years playing the game...

    the bottom 50% of guilds will still struggle in vanilla raids lol.

    Blackwing lair will be a challenge for an average guild

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Yes but actually no View Post
    It's like considering troll as the best dps race only because of beast slaying that gives you a 5% dmg buff vs beasts.

    Undeads can preemptively immune fears which would cause they to drop agro before they broke it with berserker rage, require less stance dancing so less rage lost which is more tps.
    I'm not gonna say you are wrong at all in what you're saying because I don't have enough experience but I think someone pointed out earlier in the thread that only about 5 bosses use a fear (not sure how true that is) so I find it weird that you'd use the beastslaying example as not-useful-in-enough-circumstances and then use basically the same argument to say undead is worthy. Apart from on Vael I didn't find it hard to have low enough rage that stance dancing wasn't a rage loss at all just a loss of "defiance" buff for a global. I can't imagine that global is enough time for the threat loss to make up for the lack of hit throughout the rest of the encounter and all the other encounters.

    That said, I had understood that making the difference in weapon skill and mob defense 10 or less meant that a different hit table was used and that resulted in game with a 3% less chance to miss bosses. I would have thought that alone would make most axes superior to most other available weapons for TPS tanking, outweighing other benefits like ideal weapon speed or even strong procs. The only exceptions being maybe Ironfoe and obviously Thunderfury. An Orc using Deathbringer in phase 1 is going to make more threat than a troll using something more ideally tanky, despite it being slow as hell.

    Again; this is just what I had understood from a few years ago when I was doing it on pirate servers. Agree with you about the Tauren HP. Hadn't even considered trolls just due to never having seen them as tanks. BUt yeah, think you're overstating the usefulness of WotF.

    And boy am I looking forward to rolling a human tank this time :P
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    Oh, and stop being a "didn't do that in vanilla"-police. If we're doing something now that we didnt do back then, it's not because we had some sorta unwritten moral code back then, it's because we hadn't thought of it yet.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    I'm not gonna say you are wrong at all in what you're saying because I don't have enough experience but I think someone pointed out earlier in the thread that only about 5 bosses use a fear (not sure how true that is) so I find it weird that you'd use the beastslaying example as not-useful-in-enough-circumstances and then use basically the same argument to say undead is worthy. Apart from on Vael I didn't find it hard to have low enough rage that stance dancing wasn't a rage loss at all just a loss of "defiance" buff for a global. I can't imagine that global is enough time for the threat loss to make up for the lack of hit throughout the rest of the encounter and all the other encounters.

    That said, I had understood that making the difference in weapon skill and mob defense 10 or less meant that a different hit table was used and that resulted in game with a 3% less chance to miss bosses. I would have thought that alone would make most axes superior to most other available weapons for TPS tanking, outweighing other benefits like ideal weapon speed or even strong procs. The only exceptions being maybe Ironfoe and obviously Thunderfury. An Orc using Deathbringer in phase 1 is going to make more threat than a troll using something more ideally tanky, despite it being slow as hell.

    Again; this is just what I had understood from a few years ago when I was doing it on pirate servers. Agree with you about the Tauren HP. Hadn't even considered trolls just due to never having seen them as tanks. BUt yeah, think you're overstating the usefulness of WotF.

    And boy am I looking forward to rolling a human tank this time :P
    The difference is because there are MANDATORY bosses where the fear does matter as a fight mechanic and they will cast it a fair amount of times, so being able to remove it multiple times over the course of a fight while never dropping agro in those fights is an excellent boon to have (the same reason why fear ward is so mandatory on the alliance side).
    Where as there are no mandatory times you will ever need to tank with an axe (there is one pretty high end exclusion actually to be fair but it's not really strictly related to the main tank or axes).
    So likening axe spec to beast slaying is the same, they are nice bonuses to have for occasions you face a beast or use an axe but they are not make or break in the fight.
    Where as in the fights where fear is a mechanic, your tank being feared and unable to break it, is an issue because all your undead non tank friends have popped their wotf and are now being one shot by the boss as they are valid targets on the bosses agro list while you are not (when feared). This is not including that there are some sleep and charm mechanics as well, it is not purely a fear issue, while they are limited as well they add up especially when you include the fact that it is not always just bosses, we are talking about trash mobs as well, i am sure AQ trash for example had stuff that i used wotf regularly on.

    In a perfect world where you will never waste your wotf or zerk rage by miss clicks or whatever and can be assured fears will never be an issue for you then trolls are by far the best horde main tanks in vanilla, which for every non fear/sleep/charm mechanic boss they are. However this is vanilla and if you're the main tank you are expected to be THE main tank, no swapping main tanks around on the regular, no race changing etc so even though you may not use wotf in every fight, there are fights you will use it where as a troll will never be able to use it, that is where the troll vs undead debate comes in.

    Axe spec on a dps is a completely different story however and is a great benefit if you're using axes, particularly in the cases of the aforementioned high end exclusion. There are some niche scenarios where you can have a tank not actually be a tank to increase your raid dps by a fair margin, essentially you slap a fury warrior on the boss that will be dual wielding (possibly axes) that goes absolute ham on the boss. This allows your raid dps who do not have agro dumps the ability to not worry about over agro on the tank and can continually pump in dps resulting in faster clears.
    Last edited by Yes but actually no; 2019-06-17 at 04:13 PM.

  20. #80
    I'd be glad if Alliance dominates Classic, I mean they have no chance in Retail. Just look how quickly "Famed slayer of..." gets closed on Horde side, compared to Alliance side. I don't think Blizzard can ever balance the factions, might as well toss Alliance a bloody bone for once.

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