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  1. #121
    If mana management comes back for dps they need to add a mana equivalent bar to melee (stamina?) where eventually they run out mid fight and are left to auto attack only.

  2. #122
    Brewmaster Alkizon's Avatar
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    Argorwal
    If mana management comes back for dps they need to add a mana equivalent bar to melee (stamina?) where eventually they run out mid fight and are left to auto attack only.
    But they always had it, problem isn't in who has what (there're no need in infinite amount of unique personal resources), but how to use it correctly in order not to lose the battle. Yeah, tactics, mfc. I saw, during WotLK, how 78 enhanc defeated 80 ret (those idiots, who teared on pieces even heroic class in 3 buttons at start of expansion) just running around, purging all buffs and not letting him regenerate, and then killed him under own bursts. Here's an example of two melees, one of which used its resource (including CD) correctly, and the other not... and hey, but they had one and the same resource, since they are magic classes, and mana is main and universal magic resource, what says about... that no “colorful” outrage is needed here. All this was alright, don't talk nonsense.

    Rogues has own drying mechanics, warriors has their own, hunters now also has it since they got separate mechanics as focus regeneration (it's at least unique enough to justify its appearance)... but, judging by complaints, problem now isn't so much in drying, but the fact that some specs have all abilities on CD (and no any resource management saves them from it) and there is nothing to actually press (vanilla paladins, yeah), but just beat with auto attacks (melee shamans had it partially, but they had full tatems' functionality for "things to do" (which weren't intended for mindless spam, as most retail abilities, but for situational and common use) and procs, which were taken away (wf is spec passive now, not w-enchant, so could be throw out of head) + set of (half)distant spells, most of which they also lost, etc.), and that exactly looks more like real idiocy.

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    Argorwal
    No, it's not even close to the same.

    Back in vanilla when most mana dps ran out of mana it was gg. You wanded and regen it little by little doing crap dps while the warrior and rogue just kept on plowing away with infinite attacks. They got a free pass for no reason other than "why not its a game who cares"
    I didn't talk about vanilla (but about final version of that mechanics development), in which system was in its infancy. It was good, but not sufficiently tested/sanded, and after some corrections it just turned into what was required, but now it's gone.

    Is this understandable, or needs clarification?
    Argorwal
    A good player outplaying a terribad means nothing in this discussion.
    Ho-ho-ho! At least, it's some kind indicator for "skills and knowledge" of others and own advantages&disadvantages (mechanics). Not just "HERP A DERP, watch me mash da buttunz!"(c) *pointing at javierdsv and Jotunhammer and Aleksej89* (and, by the way, healers/dd/whatever are in the same boat, since resource is resource, and part of your skill is its management)

    Although, if you'd were well versed in old mechanics, you won't have said that. It was enough well-known and "poorly controlled by skill" weakness (but not so hopeless as in vanilla). That is, it was quite useful and ordinary combo breaker, since ret's mana regeneration was talents' partly purgeable buff. He had only chance - to distribute his cd correctly, because shamans were always quite flimsy, but was replayed by tactics. Fair fight. Deserved victory.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2020-08-20 at 07:41 AM.
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  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    But they always had it, problem isn't who has what (there're no need in infinite amount of unique personal resources), but how to use it correctly in order not to lose the battle. Year, tactics, mfc. I saw during WotLK 78 enhanc defeated 80 paladin (those idiots, who teared on pieces even heroic class in 3 buttons at start of expansion) just purjing all buffs and not letting him regenerate, and then killed him under under own bursts. Here's an example of two melees, one of which used its resource correctly, and the other not. All this was alright, don't talk nonsense.
    No, it's not even close to the same.

    Back in vanilla when most mana dps ran out of mana it was gg. You wanded and regen it little by little doing crap dps while the warrior and rogue just kept on plowing away with infinite attacks. They got a free pass for no reason other than "why not its a game who cares"

    A good player outplaying a terribad means nothing in this discussion.

  4. #124
    Let's reintroduce mana for tanks too, I had fun times in Wrath when I wasn't taking enough damage to get my mana back and had to alternate between seal of wisdom and my other seals.
    Joke aside, what purpose would reintroducing mana for dpses serve? As per your post, you want to slow things a bit more. To be fair, I don't get why people want to slow things down. Especially since other people complain their classes feel too slow. I like having big pulls, it's fun. You know what I did NOT find fun? G'huun affix, having to slow down and pull around them. M+ are repeatable and you di hundreds of them, stuff that slows you down is bound to be fun the first few times but in time it gets annoying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Izalla View Post
    It really does feel weird to have a resource bar that does nothing because it's impossible to run out of it. I would rather they make it matter again in some way than to remove it entirely, but I must admit I don't really miss ooming while dpsing.
    What do you mean it does nothing? For example, in Temple of Sethraliss, I heal the end boss and I do run out of mana while doing that. As a dps or tank, you run easily out of mana if you keep spamming your heals. What dps class are you playing where you never run out of mana? Maybe you're actually not using your mana at all?

  5. #125
    The Lightbringer Izalla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    What do you mean it does nothing? For example, in Temple of Sethraliss, I heal the end boss and I do run out of mana while doing that. As a dps or tank, you run easily out of mana if you keep spamming your heals. What dps class are you playing where you never run out of mana? Maybe you're actually not using your mana at all?
    I was talking entirely about dps, because obviously healing uses it and causes it run out. And do any classes except arcane mage even run out anymore? I never even notice I have a mana bar, it's all other resources that matter now. Mana used to matter for actually casting damaging spells, which lorewise it should.
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  6. #126
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpcat View Post
    What I try is being top 3 in my raids or top 2 in M+.

    With your snarky comment you are saying that classes aren't dull as I mentioned
    I didn't say they weren't dull. I was saying your hyperbole of 2-4 buttons on every spec may have been because you simply chose all the passive abilities. Hell even on a Frost DK which I find has the LEAST amount of button input needed, if I wanted to choose talents that weren't passive I easily had more than 4 buttons to press.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    No, it's not even close to the same.

    Back in vanilla when most mana dps ran out of mana it was gg. You wanded and regen it little by little doing crap dps while the warrior and rogue just kept on plowing away with infinite attacks. They got a free pass for no reason other than "why not its a game who cares"

    A good player outplaying a terribad means nothing in this discussion.
    If you run out of mana your mana managment sucked. Problem was you not game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by javierdsv View Post
    It adds frustration, not fun.

    You're supposed to win by skill, not by making your enemy unable to continue. Unless we are talking about healers of course.
    Mana managment is part of skill. Lately it looks like most people when someone suggest to make game harder and more engagong they just start using these words like frustraiting, tedious, boring, time consuming, etc.. You just want faceroll stuff nothing els.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    If you run out of mana your mana managment sucked. Problem was you not game.

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    Mana managment is part of skill. Lately it looks like most people when someone suggest to make game harder and more engagong they just start using these words like frustraiting, tedious, boring, time consuming, etc.. You just want faceroll stuff nothing els.
    I guess than boomkin/ele shaman players just plain suck in vanilla then since they all ran out of mana after 2 min fight.

  9. #129
    Brewmaster Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    I guess than boomkin/ele shaman players just plain suck in vanilla then since they all ran out of mana after 2 min fight.
    Those people... One more time, for all three of you, I didn't speak about vanilla in that example. Read second part of that post (that have answer to all comments that concern vanilla too).
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-06-20 at 08:56 AM.
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  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Those people... One more time, for all three of you, I didn't speak about vanilla in that example. Read second part of that post (that have answer to all comments that concern vanilla too).
    I did not reply to you but since you insist. Mana for dps was a bad idea because you either had enough or not. You either have enough stats or cd or not. It is a flawed system that does not reward skill but time invested to get gear and wow does not follow that philosophy today.

  11. #131
    Brewmaster Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    I did not reply to you but since you insist. Mana for dps was a bad idea because you either had enough or not. You either have enough stats or cd or not. It is a flawed system that does not reward skill but time invested to get gear and wow does not follow that philosophy today.
    No, it was about management, like I said with my example. I don't give a damn about how it's now, because it obviously doesn't work, it only matters to me how it looked when it did

    It wasn't "an idea", it was accepted and famous "borrowed" RPG mechanics.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-06-20 at 09:13 AM.
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  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    I guess than boomkin/ele shaman players just plain suck in vanilla then since they all ran out of mana after 2 min fight.
    Yes actualy they did becouse after 15y of therocrafting people figured out those specs. Balance and ele are viable but it is lot of work. You need proper talents and very specific gear and playstyle.

  13. #133
    Remove the concept of mana totally, im tired of being told "Need mana" when I am dpsing my arse off as my shaman and try to heal with heal worthless as bandages does better sometimes.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Considering that Blizzard basically implemented talents that made mana a non issue for non healers in TBC already, it's one of those "Vanilla only" things.
    Ah, you never played TBC. Start with that so we know we can ignore what you say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    It's actually funny when you think about it, a lot of people look at Wrath or MoP when they talk about expansions with massive paradigm shifts, but a shit ton of mechanics / gameplay systems were already altered in TBC, people just didn't notice it that much because the overall game still had a very Vanilla esque feeling.
    TBC was a shift from Vanilla to WotLK, but mainly toward its end. It did start the ugly concept of "catch-up gear" right from the start, but the massive change in class gameplay were not introduced until 3.0, which was WotLK in all but name.
    So you are somehow right on the overall picture (that TBC was a start of paragdim shift), but you're wrong on which part it was a shift. TBC was a shift on gearing, and zig-zagged the attunements situation, but it was NOT a shift in gameplay unless you count the pre-expansion patch as part of "TBC", and that's a stretch.

    And this especially :
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The problem was that by the time of TBC / Wotlk, basically all mana issues vanished from dps specs.
    Is wrong. It was true in WotLK, quite not in TBC. It was easier than in Vanilla, but it DID require gameplay and management (Hunter had to switch stance to something that did a lot less damage, mages had to manage so that they emptied their mana right when their Evocate went off CD, Enh Shaman had to chose between mana orbs or lightning orbs depending on how far they were from their mana CD and so on).
    So the management was very much here. In fact, it was the best situation, because you had the intricacies of management without the mandatory "wait until mana is restored" that we saw in Vanilla.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Throwme View Post
    Som people actually want to play poker. You don't have to if you don't want to.

    What kind of argument is that?
    A pretty good one ? Some people like to tank, some like to heal, some like to DPS at range, some like to DPS in mêlée. Samely, some like to be support.
    What I loved the most when playing my Enh Shaman in TBC was that I was supporting everyone else. I also tried to do the most DPS as possible, but the fun of that spec for me was to be the one helping everyone else with a whole array of buffs.
    We're talking about the past here and my personal opinion on the past. It wasn't fun being picked just for the utility that happened to be thrown at my main class of choice.
    That's no different than a tank being taken because he can tank and we need one to tank. It makes little sense.
    Last edited by Akka; 2019-06-20 at 09:23 AM.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    No, it was about management, like I said with my example. I don't give a damn about how it's now, because it obviously doesn't work, it only matters to me how it looked when it did

    It wasn't "an idea", it was accepted and famous "borrowed" RPG mechanics.
    You have no older video? It was accepted at the time because they had no known other systems and they did not know better. Like they accepted Vanilla was a great game for its time, while it is not by today standard.

    Like seriously, we are in 2019, and even back in 2005, I still saw the issue with mana finite ressource. Like I saw the issue with only certain class having access to buff and so on.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Jotunhammer View Post
    Remove the concept of mana totally, im tired of being told "Need mana" when I am dpsing my arse off as my shaman and try to heal with heal worthless as bandages does better sometimes.
    Also remove buttons please. Just have one big ass toggle in the middle of the screen, which says "DPS" so I am not confused. Thank you blizzard.

  17. #137
    I'd be happy with that.
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    most of the rioters were racist black people with a personal hatred for white people, and it was those bigots who were in fact the primary force engaged in the anarchistic and lawless behavior in Charlottesville.

  18. #138
    They ARE, in classic!

  19. #139
    Brewmaster Alkizon's Avatar
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    Specialka
    Like seriously, we are in 2019
    Which says nothing at all.
    Akka
    Hunter
    Nothing (except maybe programming difficulties) did prevent them from sharing focus and mana resources. One for magical abilities, other for physical. First is regenerated according to its mechanism, second in its own way for combining them in battle (not as druids, without shape-shifting)
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    also focus wasn't necessary to be displayed on main resource panel, but to be done according to principle of cumulative stack one.
    which, in fact, would in no way violate either class fantasy or RPG mechanics (at least warriors and warlocks always could use their “green bar” for certain manipulations).

    For the same reason, I once suggested using even three mechanics at the same time (just as warm-up for the brain, when we were discussing concepts, not for hunters, for some kind of unconventional "bard" class) in the form of something like: several types of resources/indicators, part of which "visible in character panel" and another in buffs area (read more in the link if interested).

    ps. Looked through this topic and remembered for some reason that I had 2 different (= separate) abilities, one for "rocks", another for "papers"... made me a little sad.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2021-02-08 at 05:32 AM.
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  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Which says nothing at all.
    Nothing (except maybe programming difficulties) did prevent them from sharing focus and mana resources. One for magical abilities, other for physical. First is regenerated according to its mechanism, second in its own way for combining them in battle (not as druids, without shape-shifting), which, in fact, would in no way violate either class fantasy or RPG mechanics (at least warriors and warlocks always could use their “green bar” for certain manipulations).

    For the same reason, I once suggested using even three resources at the same time (just as warm-up for the brain, when we were discussing concepts, not for hunters, for some kind of unconventional "bard" class). Although third is rather a kind of eclipse system, but without rotation restrictions, rather situational and gradual change in combat style - adaptation/imposing.

    ps. Looked through this topic, and remembered for some reason that I had 2 different (= separate) abilities, one for "rocks", another for "papers"... made me sad a little.
    Which says that we are not in 2004 anymore, and we know better now.

    And like lol? Two or three ressource for one class? What a nightmare to balance.

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