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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    I'm sorry, but the exact wording was actually
    And i've specified it later on, so where's the problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Because they were mana battery. That's a support role in itself that is based on the fact that mana management was important, so I don't see how it doesn't count.
    First off, they didn't have to do anything different in their playstyle, it was a backed in thing into their active abilities they would use anyway.

    Second, due to group limitation, the SP was obviously put into the healers group, so the benefactor were generally not dps specs that relied on mana, but the healers.
    The dps themselves had their own tools to that generated Mana just fine, therefore it's not that relevant for the topic of this discussion, which is in fact nonhealer specs caring about mana.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    TBC gave tools to the mana-struggling classes so they COULD keep their mana up by managing it (while Vanilla had the admitedly problematic design that many mana users ended up with having to just wait to be able to do something in long fights).
    The crucial difference is the gameplay.

    Take Balance or Elemental for example, they just threw Dreamstate and Unrelenting Storm, which slapped a huge amount of Mp5 onto your character, boom, problem solved
    Similiar story for Ret, they introduced a talent that gave them mana back whenever they used judgement
    Shadow itself falls into the same category, you always used VT anyway...so you got mana back by default.

    Ignoring factors like reworked Clearcasting, increased Mp5 present on those items, etc., Blessing of Wisdom AND Manaspring at the same time being a thing, etc.
    Which all worked pretty noninteractive.

    Even for a class like Warlock they introduced Soul leech, which generated a good amount of mana automatically (which was in taken in the most popular 0/21/40 shadowbolt spam spec).

    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    That's just good design : mana exists, is a limiting factor to take into account, each class has its own way to manage it and many classes have different resources to deal with.
    And it wasn't for those specs in particular, your talents provided enough passive regeneration for you to not care about mana.

    The idea of mana being a resource falls flat on its face once the resource stops being finite and poses no limitation on the actions you want to take.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth1400 View Post
    Back in the day, if the healer went down I could choose to forgo doing my damage and instead take on the healing role temporarily which resulted in a longer fight, but one we actually stood a chance in not wiping completely.
    Because "back then" your talents had a lesser impact on your performance, which is a natural effect happening due to talent progression.

    In Vanilla, someone could disguise themself easily as healer by wearing the proper healing gear.
    Try the same thing in Wotlk, even with the "proper" equipment, your actual output was abysmal because you lacked all those output increasing talents from the healing tree.

    Look at the Vanilla talent tree and check how many actually increase your performance.
    Then make the comparison with Wotlk, the difference is massive.

    This is why hybrid healing went down, because healers got better at being healers due to more talents that improved healing.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-06-20 at 06:00 PM.

  2. #162
    Dreadlord Vanderez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Throwme View Post
    Yes, but even a crappy shadowpriest brought more managains than no shadowpriest.
    Of course, but then you could extend that argument to any role my point was that you'd always chose a well geared skilled shadown priest over someone who just dinged and had no experience. I believe the post I quoted said "any shadow priest would do" which I certainly don't agree with.

    But yes, if you had to choose between a shadow priest of no shadow priest, fo course you'd take one. But you could say the same for tanks or healers as well

  3. #163
    The accomplishment of having mana issues in the early game, then improve your gear, getting more and more mana and more and more spirit, and can turn from a mice to a healing beast through choosing what's more important: more mana or more output. That's something that is missing on retail: healer now have more healing output, wooooow... but everything else that matters about healing was destroyed.

    Back then i was always made fun off that i completely throw my priest into every spirit-gear i got. But in the end i was then the best healer, because i didn't had any mana issues and also never needed an innervate on me.

    The accomplishment, being a healer that actually cared about the gear and was able to heal through anything was an insane good feeling.

    But: Never again i want to see mp5. Having both spirit and mp5 was stupid. Beside of this i really want to have mana back, maybe even the 5 second rule; BUT: Spirit should have meditation baked in, always giving mana inside the 5 second rule and gaining a boost outside of it, especially when you drink.
    Last edited by Velerios; 2019-06-21 at 07:44 PM.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    This has lead to a bunch of spells being so horrible in PvP that they got removed. Spells I thought were really fun and interesting. Spells like Drain Mana, Mana Burn, Mana Tap and Viper Sting.
    Mana burn effects where toxic. Back in WotLK i remember doing 2s as holy pala, and evertytime we faced a disc i knew we already lost the arena: you can either LoS the priest and not heal your dps at all, or you can not LoS and be mana-burned to death. They could also dispell divine plea. It was toxic AF.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Baleful View Post
    Mana burn effects where toxic. Back in WotLK i remember doing 2s as holy pala, and evertytime we faced a disc i knew we already lost the arena: you can either LoS the priest and not heal your dps at all, or you can not LoS and be mana-burned to death. They could also dispell divine plea. It was toxic AF.
    Remember the sound of psychic scream followed by Mana burn(s)?
    Like nails on a chalkboard.

  6. #166
    The Lightbringer Lazuli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baleful View Post
    Mana burn effects where toxic. Back in WotLK i remember doing 2s as holy pala, and evertytime we faced a disc i knew we already lost the arena: you can either LoS the priest and not heal your dps at all, or you can not LoS and be mana-burned to death. They could also dispell divine plea. It was toxic AF.
    You deserved every mana burn for playing heal in 2s kek
    The greatest ever thread on MMO-Champion

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  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vofka View Post
    People in this thread are actually against the concept of having mana in a RPG game. Madness. Thank god that we actually won the war and we are getting the proper game back.
    They've been trained by Blizzard not only to despise, but also to actively hate even basic RPG concepts such as mana or magic resistance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    Thrall will humblebrag about how he doesn't want it [to be Warchief].
    Saurfang'll probably die or say he's 'too tired'.
    Baine will gasp for air as he plops Anduin's boot out of his mouth and say 'I'll be High King of the Horde!'.

  8. #168
    Interesting that the overwhelming majority of people in this thread who are advocating for the reintroduction of mana are all people who either
    1. 100% do play or
    2. post mostly in the forums of classes

    that do not use mana at all and instead use infinite resources such as energy and focus, i am shocked after realising this

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    Also remove buttons please. Just have one big ass toggle in the middle of the screen, which says "DPS" so I am not confused. Thank you blizzard.
    Also let me remove players and player that posts idiotic replies so I can erase the time they wasted from me.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Jotunhammer View Post
    Also let me remove players and player that posts idiotic replies so I can erase the time they wasted from me.
    And being stupid enough to waste even more time by replying. Smart boy.

    (Infracted - Flaming)
    Last edited by GothamCity; 2019-06-23 at 11:43 PM.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    And being stupid enough to waste even more time by replying. Smart boy.
    and stupid to respond to reply...I can do this all day long...

  12. #172
    Lego Moderator GothamCity's Avatar
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    Mana being a resource like healers caused issues. It made it so short fights heavily favored mana users (assuming they could burn through their pool in time), while long fights favored resource users like warriors/rogues/feral druids. I also do not think it was very fun to play with. Running OOM was not really a skill thing, it was just something that happened after X seconds of using your rotation, then you were stuck using a wand until you had enough mana to cast your spells again.

    Healers and their mana have always been much more skill based. Minimizing over healing and maximizing HPM (healing per mana) has always been a fun aspect of the game. Coordinating as a team to make sure you always had enough mana to make it to the end of the fight is enjoyable to this day. You end up with very varied fights such as Ursoc from EN (which was basically constantly burning your mana until OOM) versus Mythic Jaina (which was a lot more about conservation, timing cooldowns, and coordinating drinking) and everything in between.

    The issue comes from the core relationship between healers and dps. DPS never want to slow down, their goal is to kill the boss as quickly as possible. Meaning there is not a scenario you can imagine someone wanting to downrank DPS spells or choosing to do less damage to conserve mana. That defeats the purpose of being a damage dealer. DPS doing more damage and ending a fight faster allows for healers to spend more time contributing to damage (as they need less mana to heal) or potentially allowing a healer to drop entirely for another DPS slot. Historically, the only time casters would downrank is on exceptionally long fights where OOM was guaranteed, and they would switch to a higher DPM (damage per mana) spell to conserve their mana. It wasn't really fun either, it was just a "this fight lasts longer than X seconds, so we need to use Rank Y instead of Rank Z to maximize DPS". A healer, however, whose whole gameplay was about maximizing mana and playing wack-a-mole, downranking added a huge variety to their toolkit. Several low ranked spells could be essentially spammed while OOM because their cost was less than your regeneration.

    Essentially, for DPS, mana only serves as a time limit for their effective DPS. Blizzard recognized this and either gave casters a way to regenerate mana when needed (Aspect of the Viper for Hunters, Seal of Wisdom for Paladins, etc). Eventually Blizzard removed mana as a resource for most DPS and just gave them an actual resource bar that no longer put them on a time limit. The only real way to make mana interesting for a DPS is to do something like Arcane Mages.
    "Okay, Robin. Together, we're gonna punch these guys so hard, words describing the impact are gonna spontaneously materialize out of thin air."
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  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    The accomplishment of having mana issues in the early game, then improve your gear, getting more and more mana and more and more spirit, and can turn from a mice to a healing beast through choosing what's more important: more mana or more output. That's something that is missing on retail: healer now have more healing output, wooooow... but everything else that matters about healing was destroyed.

    Back then i was always made fun off that i completely throw my priest into every spirit-gear i got. But in the end i was then the best healer, because i didn't had any mana issues and also never needed an innervate on me.

    The accomplishment, being a healer that actually cared about the gear and was able to heal through anything was an insane good feeling.

    But: Never again i want to see mp5. Having both spirit and mp5 was stupid. Beside of this i really want to have mana back, maybe even the 5 second rule; BUT: Spirit should have meditation baked in, always giving mana inside the 5 second rule and gaining a boost outside of it, especially when you drink.
    Ehhmm do you sprit increased mana and hp regen but only when you were out of combat right? Mp5 was what mattered. Spirit was actualy garbage.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Baleful View Post
    Mana burn effects where toxic. Back in WotLK i remember doing 2s as holy pala, and evertytime we faced a disc i knew we already lost the arena: you can either LoS the priest and not heal your dps at all, or you can not LoS and be mana-burned to death. They could also dispell divine plea. It was toxic AF.
    And thats why you never balance mmorpg game as compettive pvp game.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    You are wrong here. If all DPS specs has an INFINITE DPS rotation, it is easy to balance. That is what they have today..
    And what we have today is such a fun successful go at it right? If most had an actual resource to manage abilities would be balanced around the downtime. Not smashing the lighting up icons. Infinite RNG is all blizzard knows now.
    "I'm Tru @ w/e I do" ~ TM

  15. #175
    Mana hasn't been a relevant thing for most classes for longer than it ever was a thing. Play Classic if you want to stand still for 5 seconds doing nothing

  16. #176
    Pandaren Monk UnluckyAmateur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Throwme View Post
    It wasn't fun being the mana battery as a shadow priest, knowing that you were brought along just for that one feature and not because you were actually awesome. Any shadowpriest would do and you just happened to be there at the right time.
    It wasn't fun casting Innervate on that one DPS that constantly didn't know how to manage their own mana and yelled INNERVATE ME PLX I NEEDZ MANA!!! Usually Innervate would be nice to save for when the healers needed to keep us alive, but noooo, use it on the crappy DPS, of course, no problem.

    THE IDEA is good. But the implementation will not be good. There was a time for that kind of gameplay and that time was years ago. You can enjoy a little bit of that gameplay in Classic, but I do not and will not ever miss it.
    that has more to do with the classes being shit overall than anything else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boomzy
    People just want to be bullies without facing any sort of consequences or social fallout for being a bully. If you declare X as a racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. person you can say or do whatever you want to them, ignoring the fact that they are a human.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Mana hasn't been a relevant thing for most classes for longer than it ever was a thing. Play Classic if you want to stand still for 5 seconds doing nothing
    If you end up standing still doing norhing you were just bad at mana managment.

  18. #178
    Yes. A warlock playing without mana and lifetap does not feel right

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    If you end up standing still doing norhing you were just bad at mana managment.
    Not necessarily, part of mana management was just sometimes you wouldn't cast - which is the direct opposite of casters now with ABC. Making mana relevant again would add literally nothing and be a balancing nightmare the game doesn't need right now.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Ehhmm do you sprit increased mana and hp regen but only when you were out of combat right? Mp5 was what mattered. Spirit was actualy garbage.
    Depends on the classes.
    Two classes worked on mp5 (shaman and paladins). Two worked on spirit (druid and priests).

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