I have some hope now where there was none

[Shakana]

Well, i believe it when i see it. I won't be hyped until i feel all this is going to be good and i feel like playing the game for once this expansion.

I'm happy tho that Ion addressed all of this concerns we players have been talking about for ages now

[khazmodan]

They butchered specs in 7.0, then butchered again in 8.0, then they promise to maybe change something for good in 9.0. That's 4 full years of atrocious class design and people still pay money to play this?

Exactly right, the truth is that the current developer team is just incapable of understanding the level of RPG fun that the OG developers made, partly because they have a lawyer instead of a software developer leading them. When you have somebody that is in way over his head, in this job, he will try to simplify the job down to his level of understanding, hence the stripping of so many abilities. Hiring a guy that can drive a car fast to engineer the car is as stupid as hiring a guy that can play the game well with the assumption that he can design a game with over 10 million lines of code.

[Schattenlied]

Ions video on class design

This is great and all but he said a lot of the same stuff during a Q&A during Legion, and didn't do shit about it in BFA... So, I'll believe he's sincere about this when I see action on it.

[Kralljin]

As you said mostly PvP and when leveling was actually difficult at times

Is leveling still difficult?
Should it be "difficult"?

Like, you and i know that they're not going to buff every mob in the outside world by 300% and remove heirlooms.

Point is, leveling has progressively become a smaller portion of the game, it was huge in Vanilla, that's why obviously a lot was designed around (and made sense based on that).

So, should this be a fundamental turning point of class design that only really matters during a rather small portion of the game?

Especially later on, it just turned into a "write a macro for ability X that includes /cast Y/Z Stance".

I was also playing tank warrior when aggro was a thing (and stances)

And that's a thing that died in Wotlk, because threat (let alone AoE threat) was trivialised.
That has nothing to do with stances, nor would come back with the return of stances.

To be fair, designing everything just around mindless PvE rotations lead us exactly, where we are now so..

Yes and no.

People have to understand that certain design aspects only come together when the picture as a whole fits.

I've implied this above, designing a class around the leveling aspect made sense in Vanilla, now leveling (or any solo outdoor content) is a mindless grind.
The return of stances would not change this, this wouldn't come back unless its associated aspects also change.

After all, Stances were basically altered almost every single expansion until they were removed, because nothing quite ever worked out, at least in my opinion.

[WrongCracker]

They need to stop designing the game to the lowest common denominator. If a warrior can't figure out he can't use an ability in a certain stance, then he is an idiot. Design the game with fun in mind, and not dumbing it down for the idiots. Shit like metamorphosis, soul swap, stances, and other things that gave classes identities and thematically individual is fun and why people enjoy playing their characters and classes. Casters have become really what color of magic ball you throw now, and lost a lot of the individuality. Bring back class quest lines like the green fire quest for other classes and give players things to do that isn't IE's and WF's and things that just feel like a chore to go do.
Bring back talent trees as well to further enhance this individuality so that for example two fire mages might be the same spec but play very differently with focusing on different things.

Regardless, this is all talk until actual changes are announced and made. I won't believe anything he says until they actually do something about it. BFA is a dumpster fire for the number 1 reason that my class is boring and not fun to play. This makes anything and everything they possibly add to the game automatically boring because my way on engaging with said content is boring.

you had me all the way up to talent trees, everyone played the exact same talents.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

you had me all the way up to talent trees, everyone played the exact same talents.

So the same as now? Except now you change them boss-by-boss instead of just locking into one build?

[ManiaCCC]

Is leveling still difficult?
Should it be "difficult"?

Like, you and i know that they're not going to buff every mob in the outside world by 300% and remove heirlooms.

Point is, leveling has progressively become a smaller portion of the game, it was huge in Vanilla, that's why obviously a lot was designed around (and made sense based on that).

So, should this be a fundamental turning point of class design that only really matters during a rather small portion of the game?

Especially later on, it just turned into a "write a macro for ability X that includes /cast Y/Z Stance".



And that's a thing that died in Wotlk, because threat (let alone AoE threat) was trivialised.
That has nothing to do with stances, nor would come with the return of stances.



Yes and no.

People have to understand that certain design aspects only come together when the picture as a whole fits.

I've implied this above, designing a class around the leveling aspect made sense in Vanilla, now leveling (or any solo outdoor content) is a mindless grind.
The return of stances would not change this, this wouldn't come back unless its associated aspects also change.

After all, Stances were basically altered almost every single expansion until they were removed, because nothing quite ever worked out, at least in my opinion.

You just said broadly that putting stances back without changing the game wouldn't do much because game is already fucked too much. Well, I agree. So all changes should not be made in vacuum and major overhaul of many game systems are needed to make it work again.

But again, I have hard times to imagine to make "class identity" work without strong defining features, with all advantages and disadvantages. We now have more spec gimmicks and resources than ever before, yet, classes and specs all feel so similar because there is no depth within the class.

I believe stances provide unique depth. Thanks to stances, you can have this super versatile class for combat, with tons of tools, but you have to manage stances properly. I just loved it.

[Shakana]

I'm just wondering.... will ever GCD's be out of the picture? I'm really tired of GCD's. The game would feel so much better without it

Can't even make much macros anymore

[crono14]

you had me all the way up to talent trees, everyone played the exact same talents.

Well it's been 15 years since Vanilla and really a long time since talent trees in that regard were a thing regardless. Even now, they could expand heavily on existing talent trees do something different and take some risks. It doesn't have to be the same as it is now. One of those fire mages for example could be a more aoe heavy spec while the other would focus more on single target. One of those specs could apply some sort of burn on the boss which would increase fire dmg and have a chance to summon a fire familiar or something to fight with you. Who knows, these could be terrible ideas, the point is it would be cool to have some cool shit done with class identity. With how they design PvE content though, it would be a nightmare to try and tune this stuff, but maybe some of that also needs to change.

First and foremost though, bringing back some semblance of class identity and making classes fun to play again is the first step.

[Kralljin]

You just said broadly that putting stances back without changing the game wouldn't do much because game is already fucked too much. Well, I agree. So all changes should not be made in vacuum and major overhaul of many game systems are needed to make it work again.

The essence is that you cannot use a mechanic that has worked in Vanilla, copy paste it into the live game and expect similiar results.

Because at this point you're basically asking them to roll back things to Vanilla state, which isn't going to happen.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

I'm just wondering.... will ever GCD's be out of the picture? I'm really tired of GCD's. The game would feel so much better without it

Can't even make much macros anymore

No chance. They may loosen up on the GCD restrictions but no way they remove GCD entirely. That would open way too big a can of worms.

Honestly I even doubt some of the more macro-friendly buffs get taken back off GCD. Seems Blizz's new philosophy is they want buttons and complexity to matter. Macroing a buff together with an attack would still fly in the face of that.

[Kyriani]

Call me cynical, but these days, when it comes to Blizzard, I believe half of what I see and none of what I hear.

This video was a PR fluff piece of non-relevance IMO. It was just a longer fancier version of the same old tired "we've learned from our mistakes and plan to do better" yarn they spin every so often.

Don't get me wrong, I won't be surprised to see more class centric focus in the next xpac. Legion's class halls/class focus were generally received well so it makes sense they would try to capitalize on that again. Blizzard's problem is, and and has been for quite some time, that they don't know how to stick with what works. Sometimes they actually get these right but break it anyway just because of their irrational need to change things just for the sake of change every friggin expansion.

I get things need some shaking up from time to time... but not EVERY FRIGGIN EXPANSION. Sometimes it's ok to stick with things that work. Sometimes round wheels should be left as round wheels and not messed with.

[Fred Skinner]

Well.. my reaction:



He only sees world questing as "catch up mechanism", while it is the endgame of many, focuses on rated pvp and mythic dungeons, talks about arena..

I do not want to continue to play this game, which only knows competition, challenges and meritocracy.

You could do better in adressing all your players, Mr. Hazzikostas. As long you only see everyone as potential raider or arena player, i dont see any reason to continue to play WoW.

[ManiaCCC]

The essence is that you cannot use a mechanic that has worked in Vanilla, copy paste it into the live game and expect similiar results.

Because at this point you're basically asking them to roll back things to Vanilla state, which isn't going to happen.

I don't disagree, however I believe there is design space for new "stances" which could actually work with modern designs. I just feel they are too afraid to put systems into the game, which are NOT designed in way, your grandma can understand it on a first glance. I think their whole "bring back class identity" will be like "You know what, maybe all shamans should use totems", they will give 2-3 totems baseline and will call it a day.

[Stormspellz]

I'm not, where was this self enlightenment last year?

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Well.. my reaction:

https://media1.giphy.com/media/XxUwIMRHFQXSM/giphy.gif[/IMG]

He only sees world questing as "catch up mechanism", while it is the endgame of many, focuses on rated pvp and mythic dungeons, talks about arena..

I do not want to continue to play this game, which only knows competition, challenges and meritocracy.

You could do better in adressing all your players, Mr. Hazzikostas. As long you only see everyone as potential raider or arena player, i dont see any reason to continue to play WoW.

I dunno "catch-up mechanism" sounds about the right spot for World Quests.

Heck that sounds like an insult to Catch-Up Mechanisms.

Catch-up doesn't need to be fast, it doesn't need to be easy, it just needs to be not raiding. You can make an endgame out of just riding the catch-up elevator, I know that's why I loved Wrath so much.

[Beefkow]

"Actions speak louder than words."

I'll believe what he is saying when I see a change in action.

Off topic though, --- snip ---. You get to choose your abilities, customize your rotation and what not. Leveling up and progressing makes me excited and motivated to keep playing. Retail wow does the complete opposite.

[Softbottom]

Ions video on class design


I am delighted to see them actually finally publicly acknowledge they also are not happy with the state of classes, i won't get ahead of myself in hoping for miracles in 9.0 because ultimately i cannot see them scrapping voidform or anything that would make me enjoy my class again, however the fact they are now in agreement and openly talking about making classes actual classes again and specs being actual specialisations of a class rather than a "mini class" does give me hope.

I am slightly worried however that blizzard being blizzard these days will fail hard on this and we will see a big imbalance of some classes or specs seeing total revamps or return of much needed abilities that were removed while others have to endure another spriest shaman "that's gonna have to wait for a patch new expansion" fiasco like bfa.

I just cannot see them doing what needs done for a fair amount of classes (at least the ones i used to enjoy playing before the garbage of legion and bfa) that to be brutally honest require around 2/3 or more of their talent tree to actually go back to being baseline to make the class feel good. Unless they said fuck it at the start of BFA and decided on this back then so they are currently working on that right now (which could explain the lack of changes we normally see) and it is their top priority to overhaul every class and spec to bring them back to enjoyment levels we haven't saw for a number of years i cannot see them being able to achieve it before time for next expansion. It coming from Ion just feels like hollow lawyer marketing talk to keep people from losing all interest entirely.

But still, there is now hope where there was once none.

The problem with your delight is they say this mid expansion literally every expansion and fail to deliver. I wouldn't get your hopes up. Even classes in legion felt hollow; Most of them didn't play well until you had your artifact with plenty of points, tier sets, and proper legos.

[Kralljin]

I just feel they are too afraid to put systems into the game, which are NOT designed in way, your grandma can understand it on a first glance.

And i don't believe that stances were ever that complicated.
Point was just, in PvE, you're not using them, you sit in your designated stance and that's it.

Even Stance dance for Berserk rage wasn't that difficult.
Let alone be an issue in the current raid enviroment, any boss that fears the tank or raid would have its fear as mythic only ability because it would require a specific class, also Tremor is a thing.

Stances are a lot like Druid forms, outside of maybe one or two situations, you spent most of your time in the form of your spec while doing PvE.

This is to some extent the nature of this group / raid based PvE content in WoW, i'm feeling more like playing a Paladin when i play Uther in HotS or Omniknight in DotA, they nailed the fantasy of a Tanky Melee support far better than WoW ever did.

And that has nothing to do with the class design of BfA, it's just that you're funneled into a given role, that being dps, thus any other factors lose relevance.

I think their whole "bring back class identity" will be like "You know what, maybe all shamans should use totems", they will give 2-3 totems baseline and will call it a day.

Probably, but then again, be careful what you wish for, people want buttons, people get buttons.

There is a world of difference between "I want those buttons back" and "I want those buttons back but in a more useful version".

[ManiaCCC]

And i don't believe that stances were ever that complicated.

While it wasn't some hardcore challenge, it was enough to make a big difference in PvP and even in PvE. It was still much more difficult to manage (if you decided to not ignore it) than anything what we have in the game now.

Probably, but then again, be careful what you wish for, people want buttons, people get buttons.

There is a world of difference between "I want those buttons back" and "I want those buttons back but in a more useful version".

Class identity is just not about buttons count but yes, I want more buttons and if they can't make it more useful, just bring some old tools back even if needs for this tools are limited these days. People have creative minds, they will most probably find place for it somewhere.