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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Reiry View Post
    Traditionally BrM is the best or nearly the best for raiding and is mediocre for dungeons. The reason people switch to BrM is generally to improve their performance in raids. Prot pally is almost certainly better for the content you're doing.
    The only reason brew is mediocre for dungeons is their damage output is low.

  2. #22
    The Patient voxnor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Prot Pally is pretty active and part of your general active mitigation is your "oh crap!" button with a hefty regular heal.

    BrewM you don't really get that. In general BrM is super durable but if you're caught in a war of attrition you'll die without a healer. You just get slowly worn down.

    So if you're running a dungeon and things go pear shaped and say your healer goes down there's far less chance of you saving it by kiting out and healing up. Not saying it's impossible, just more difficult than with a paladin.
    That makes sense - and I guess confirms that I should stay on my Paladin with the group.
    Voxnor the Fearless (Main - Protection Paladin)
    Atlas the Seeker (Alt - Frost Mage)
    Voxic the Proven Assailant (Alt - Assassination Rogue)

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by voxnor View Post
    That makes sense - and I guess confirms that I should stay on my Paladin with the group.
    If your group needs clutch a lot then it might make sense.

    If you're having fun at BrM though then keep leveling it up. All it costs you is your own time and you're the person that gets to decide how that's spent.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by voxnor View Post
    I have in fact completed 7's - just not on time so you are likely not seeing them on the armory.

    And we run 6's all the time - but multiples of the same dungeons so far.

    Lack of experience is most definitely not my problem, but thanks. I have been playing WoW since launch.

    I happen to play with my Wife, sister-in-law, brother-in-law, and a friend new to WoW. So yes, 5/6/7 is where we play at. None of that bespeaks poor experience.
    Im not slighting you. You have said you are struggling while leveling and don't finish keys over 6 in time, so more expeience seems to be needed. Practice makes persistent not perfect, so you need to practice better. People,myself included, have offered aome help, tips and insight things you asked for. Only to be met with excuses, so maybe it is that mindset causing problems.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  5. #25
    The Patient voxnor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alvito View Post
    Im not slighting you. You have said you are struggling while leveling and don't finish keys over 6 in time, so more expeience seems to be needed. Practice makes persistent not perfect, so you need to practice better. People,myself included, have offered aome help, tips and insight things you asked for. Only to be met with excuses, so maybe it is that mindset causing problems.
    Did you read through the thread?

    I don't have a 'problem'. I am happy with my keys as they are - playing with the people I play with. Not sure where in this thread you found me saying I had a problem and needed help. I was discussing wanting to switch to BrM, finding some drawbacks in utility, and agreeing with folks as the discussion evolved that my Paladin makes a better choice given my situation.

    I don't want or care to get 'better'. I play to have fun with my friends.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by GothamCity View Post
    Ah. Welcome to leveling a brewmaster. We suck at it. Totally undertuned.

    You won't really be capable of much actual tanking until level 78, and it'll be the best around level 100. I main a BrM in mythic raids and clear +18s pretty regularly now depending on the week. When I leveled a BrM for an allied race it was so bad.

    Mastery is really important for us (not specifically as a stat but the passive buff). You don't get that until 78. Probably the two most important talents, Bob & Weave and High Tolerance are also no available until 75 and 100 respectively.

    I'd recommend leveling as a healer or dps. Tanking isn't really viable until much later. It's not you, it is the class.


    If you're interested in more of the nuance, brewmasters are designed to take the most damage of all the tanks. To compensate for that, we have stagger which makes our health pool very smooth and reliable. At max level, we just don't drop 50% all at once. Incoming damage is much smoother. This allows passive healing to sustain us much more than a normal tank, and generally results in less spam and overhealing. Plus it gives our healers breathing room since, if we're at full HP, nothing is killing us in 3 seconds.

    While leveling, we're missing all the tools that make stagger strong. At max level, with ISB up and no food/flask/rune, my stagger is 85.18%. While leveling pre 100%, you're likely looking at 50-60% at best. Meaning you're taking a lot more damage.

    Dodge is about 16%. Our master increases our chance to dodge by like 10% everytime we get hit or use blackout. On a boss, that means we dodge every 3rd blow on average, so you're taking about 20-25% additional avoidable damage there as well.

    Edit: One final note, based on the content you're doing, if you really want to switch I'd recommend switching to warrior or DK for M+. Both perform a bit better, and DK is likely getting better next patch. But all three of the plate tanks are very good, so you should probably stick with a paladin. All of the leather tanks are quite poor in M+. The only reason I push with my monk is because I raid first and foremost. If I was only doing M+, I'd be a warrior or DK.
    Really appreciate this detailed response.

    Specifically, your comments pointed at the content we do. I consider trying out a DK or War and see what I think. I played a blood DK in LK, but haven't touched it since.
    Voxnor the Fearless (Main - Protection Paladin)
    Atlas the Seeker (Alt - Frost Mage)
    Voxic the Proven Assailant (Alt - Assassination Rogue)

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by GothamCity View Post
    Snip..

    Edit: One final note, based on the content you're doing, if you really want to switch I'd recommend switching to warrior or DK for M+. Both perform a bit better, and DK is likely getting better next patch. But all three of the plate tanks are very good, so you should probably stick with a paladin. All of the leather tanks are quite poor in M+. The only reason I push with my monk is because I raid first and foremost. If I was only doing M+, I'd be a warrior or DK.
    @voxnor As someone who is in same position as you (playing around 10 keys with my family and friends) all i can say that Gotham's reply is spot on.
    Im switching between tanks a lot as i like to have it versatile and gives me the chance to look into same situations with different toolkit.

    First of all, what people forgot to mention, we are talking about different tanking mechanics - dodge/stagger on BrM, blocking on Paladin/Warrior and soak/heal on DK or Vengeance DH. Blocking as is, plays huge role in tanking as its calculating reduced damage before you get hit, the better the shield you have, more effectively you can tank.

    Out of all of them i felt most squishy on BrM monk, but that being said i have the most fun on him. As people mentioned, it gets A LOT better and easier with levels, gear and there are few Azerite traits that make life a lot easier as BrM - Boiling Brew, Staggering Strikes, Straight, No Chaser and Elusive Footwork are worth mentioning. Out of them all, again, BrM feels most health efficient and due to their mechanics, Stagger, you will have more constant flow of HP with far less or even none spikes. This will give your healer time to keep an eye on other party members.

    Warrior is simply.. well a Thunderclap, Revenge and overall quite "Selfish" tank with almost none party utility. Its good at what it does, however if you are used to carrying the party and saving them with your utility i would look at something else tbh. Its a great tank, able to eat A LOT of damage, however its healer dependent and lackluster in utility. They are also cooldown dependent and they can eat a spike hit between their shield blocks, it will get reduced by Ignore Pain, but healer will have a job to pick you up.

    DK is also really selfish tank, but their tanking mechanics fit more 5mans than warriors imo. It will take some time getting used to to joggle between Death Strikes heal, its blood shield Mastery and Bone Shield, however when you learn it and grab enough gear for the content that you are doing - simply said, you will be God tier tank.
    Out of all tanks DKs are the slowest, most selfish, health spiky but most self-sustainable of them all.

    If you arent planning to spend a lot of time in new 8.2 zones at start, if you just want to enjoy and if you have decided to put BrM on side - between Warr and DK my suggestion would be a DK. Try it out, you will immediately have a grasp of how different tank they are and how Godly they can feel.

    If you however have some time and you are ready for slight learning curve and a bit of gear farming - stick to BrM, they are quite fun, and in addition Monks have all 3 roles to play with. Class aesthetics is probably not up everybody's alley, but you can do wonders with Stagger.
    Last edited by Gurg; 2019-06-25 at 03:10 AM.

  7. #27
    To tank as low level brew take black ox statue and heal it will it tanks.

  8. #28
    No one mentioned this to you but before you actually get to max level dungeons and get super sad, I will tell you: Brewmaster and Disc Priest are probably the worst combo possible. Brewmaster strength is based on turning big hits into a damage over time while Disc Priests strengths are shields which are useless against the Damage over time.

    I can tell you that I'm coming from Prot Warrior (2.3k Rio s2) and I'm seriously considering swaping to Brewmaster, not because its better, no tank can compete with Prot Warrior AoE and somehow Blizzard's new ''single target affix'' is nothing more than pull everything anyways and cleave them down which plays into the strengths of warrior, but because Brewmaster seems so much more fun - especially with the numbers you can pull on single target with Hot Turb.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnosh View Post
    No one mentioned this to you but before you actually get to max level dungeons and get super sad, I will tell you: Brewmaster and Disc Priest are probably the worst combo possible. Brewmaster strength is based on turning big hits into a damage over time while Disc Priests strengths are shields which are useless against the Damage over time.
    This. Tanks and healers are teams, and some teams are stronger than others. Doesnt mean either class is good/bad, just some teams have better/worse synergy than others. My normal healer is a holy priest. She's a great healer, but BrM and hpriest isn't a good combo. When she's been out, we usually take a resto druid...and I never drop below 80% health. Id say stick with prot pally if your healer isnt rerolling.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurg View Post
    [...]
    DK is also really selfish tank, but their tanking mechanics fit more 5mans than warriors imo. It will take some time getting used to to joggle between Death Strikes heal, its blood shield Mastery and Bone Shield, however when you learn it and grab enough gear for the content that you are doing - simply said, you will be God tier tank.
    Out of all tanks DKs are the slowest, most selfish, health spiky but most self-sustainable of them all.

    If you arent planning to spend a lot of time in new 8.2 zones at start, if you just want to enjoy and if you have decided to put BrM on side - between Warr and DK my suggestion would be a DK. Try it out, you will immediately have a grasp of how different tank they are and how Godly they can feel.
    [...]
    When did you last play BDK in a key higher than +10? The times of BDK beeing gods in M+ are long time over and I doubt that BDK will ever go back to Legions level of godliness . BDK is however more self-sufficient then Monk but way more spiky especially with tyrannical bosses. BrM might be less self sufficient therefore he can survive a long time on low HP w/o dying and with expel harm you have a heal that is not relying on incoming damage like death strike.

    I switched from BDK to BrM end season 2 and my healer (mw-monk) said that the BrM is smoother to heal even with almost 10 ilvl less.

    OT: I think if you enjoy gameplay as BrM go for it and learn the specc, it is easy to learn but hard to master, especially due to not having many oh shit buttons and beeing reliant on the healer and in consequence optimizing brews and expel harm.
    As said before in M+ some tank/healer combos work better than others and if you are fine with carrying the group you should play what works best for you. Especially if your healer going holy or taking another class is not an option. However I have mixed experiences with disci, some really struggle especially with suboptimal play I think they lack the tools to compensate for other players mistakes but with very good play you get almost a fourth dd.

    On a side note BrM is a beast in raids, mobility - awesome mitigation - and the damage is definitely improving with the essences.

  11. #31
    if you searching for a tank with zero burst and shit aoe brew is the go to

  12. #32
    - BrM is an amazing raid tank and a decent (not amazing) dungeon tank
    - BrM has fast and fluid gameplay but relatively little variannce in the main skills being used
    - The best healer for BrM (who takes everything as damage over time) is a HoT based healer like Resto Druid
    - BrM is bad during the level phase, because you just take way more damage than other tanks with little mitigation other than delaying it a bit. This is probably (not entirely sure since I haven't done the level phase since quite a bit) because you only get your Mastery and other relevant stuff late in the level phase, I think it's level 80 and up. Before that, you're basically a leather dude with a bit more stamina and crit immunity and not much else. Thankfully, the level phase doesn't really mean anything, and since it's overall still easy, you can manage this easily and then in end game (presumably level 80+) enjoy your fully functional BrM tank
    - The gameplay of a BrM is that you are a damage sponge that wants to play healer friendly (i.e. make your damage intake as smooth as possible, so that your healers can easily heal you over time and not have a heart attack because of you dropping suddenly). It also means that you pretty much need a healer because you have low self healing ability. The self healing is OK for playing solo stuff and if you spare some healing orbs you essentially can use Expel Harm for the effect of a "Lay on Hands for yourself". But this is not always the case. For any harder content, having healers is necessary. For solo stuff, you can take extra talents to increase your self healing, but it's still not great. For hard group content, you can't take these because there are other more efficient mitigation talents in the same row. So you rely on healers more than other tanks.
    - This also makes BrM probably the most unique tank in the game, because delaying of damage is something that no other tank does. This requires a bit of getting used to if you're just used to other tanks. It also means your healers have to "know" how a BrM takes damage, if a healer has never seen a BrM he might panic and waste a lot of mana by healing it quickly even though it's not necessary. For example a BrM with < 50%, maybe even less HP is still very stable in most situations. The HP bar of a BrM is always in motion.
    - BrM has much less group utility than a paladin, but still situationally good utility and important debuffs
    - BrM is very mobile
    Last edited by TaurenNinja; 2019-08-05 at 09:25 AM.

  13. #33
    Looking at your group comp, the biggest change I would make if you're going to main a BrM is to have your healer switch to holy. Prayer of Mending + Renew is insanely OP on Monk tanks. It almost completely removes the necessity for healer attention unless you're getting into a full heavy stagger territory where you can't purify. The holy priest I play with uses PoM + Renew + HWSerenity and that's pretty much it (for tank healing). PoM is constantly being activated and stagger is passively being mitigated with Renew. She'll let me get below 30%ish, and then she drops a HWS on me and I'm usually back to full, especially if celestial fortune procs. Prayer of Healing and HWSanctify being group heals going out to the group make the healing attention I need even less.

    Holy Priest and Resto Druid were tailor made for healing BrM.

  14. #34
    Brewmasters are one of the worst tanks while leveling, they get destroyed by everything because they're missing key components of their mitigation, where-as all the other tanks are already decked out in plate armor or getting a massive bonus from bear form, already giving them a massive edge up on you. Never level as one, you're better off going MW or WW, they truly shine once you're at max level and have all your tools available.

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