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  1. #21
    Warchief Advent's Avatar
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    Just take enhancement, scrap everything done to it from WoD onwards, and iterate on it from there. I don't personally want 2H back because I do not believe 2 different competing weapon styles within a spec works, and I never wanted to wield a 2H in the first place. Ret, Unholy, Fury and Arms already exist. Keep Crash Lightning though, that makes cleave pretty decent imo.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Just take enhancement, scrap everything done to it from WoD onwards, and iterate on it from there. I don't personally want 2H back because I do not believe 2 different competing weapon styles within a spec works, and I never wanted to wield a 2H in the first place. Ret, Unholy, Fury and Arms already exist. Keep Crash Lightning though, that makes cleave pretty decent imo.
    Enhancement started as 2H as you acquired it down the talent tree, it was a 2H spec. They then changed it to dual-wield, I could make the exact same case to you. I never wanted Enhancement dual-wield, there is plenty of dual-wield specs, Assassination, Combat/Outlaw, Subtlety, Fury, Frost, Windwalker, Havoc and Vengeance.

    The difference is I rolled a toon that started with a 2H shaman, dual wield never existed back then. This holds more weight to the argument.

    What I would do is make 2H a top tier talent, give it a boost in damage, like a passive that competes with other talents. Make it a option, a viable option that people can pick to enhance, <ahem> their play-styles.

  3. #23
    I think 2handed weapon argument can never be discussed. As of today holdind a weapon is just a preference of "looks". Take a peek at fury warriors. Holding two 2h weapons doesnt increase their damage by %100 compared to arms when using same ability like execute. ATM in wow gear and weapons has more emphasis on cosmetics, what really matters in numbers is only item level. And im not saying it shouldnt be.

    I dont know if numbers can be crunched to make both equal (not just viable but equal) but it would be nice indeed though i gotta admit this seems unlikely.

    To be honest, the main reason i want 2h weapons back into spec is my longing for a feeling of connection between my axe and the enemy. The slower pace of game which gave depth to every hit you made. The sound it made when it crits. Watching my toon complete his animation etc. Now it looks like a squirrel on mdma, constantly spasming. I know this cant be fixed or should be "fixed" with just reintroducing 2h to enhancement but at least it would bring some of that satisfacting feeling back. I personally hate seeing 14 different (not exaggerating you can count yourself in any damage meter) damage text with 1 stormstrike hit. I dont even look at my screen to see how much my stormstrike hits. I dont have a number to compare when i upgrade my weapons becouse damage is too spread and really 1 storm strike doesnt really mean anything without stormbringer-flametongue-frostbrand-windfury modifiers.

    Ofc this "problem" is extended to all other specs to a degree and some people like it this way but i feel enhancement is again too far sided at that spectrum.

    From a class fantasy perspective, duel wielding seems more like a training required usage. See how shamans cant use swords? Becouse sword are a cultural weapon. Suited for duels and showing expertise. Same thing for duel wielding imo. Shamans are raw magic users unlike mages. And should be raw weapon user unlike rogues. Enhanced by elements and bloodlust. Not by training with opponents but with elements and spirits. Of course this is just my opinion. But if duel wield was ONLY brought in for balance in drop table. I wish blizzard devs could make time to discuss this throughly.

  4. #24
    Warchief Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razaron View Post
    Enhancement started as 2H as you acquired it down the talent tree, it was a 2H spec. They then changed it to dual-wield, I could make the exact same case to you. I never wanted Enhancement dual-wield, there is plenty of dual-wield specs, Assassination, Combat/Outlaw, Subtlety, Fury, Frost, Windwalker, Havoc and Vengeance.

    The difference is I rolled a toon that started with a 2H shaman, dual wield never existed back then. This holds more weight to the argument.

    What I would do is make 2H a top tier talent, give it a boost in damage, like a passive that competes with other talents. Make it a option, a viable option that people can pick to enhance, <ahem> their play-styles.
    That is great for you, but enhance has been a dual wield spec for more than a decade now. going back on it now would only tick off people who like it the way it has been for most of the game's life. We have seen what happens when they try to balance two weapon styles within a spec several times now, and it just doesn't work. People are already upset with being on the low end of the dps range, and adding more play styles would exacerbate that issue even further.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    That is great for you, but enhance has been a dual wield spec for more than a decade now. going back on it now would only tick off people who like it the way it has been for most of the game's life. We have seen what happens when they try to balance two weapon styles within a spec several times now, and it just doesn't work. People are already upset with being on the low end of the dps range, and adding more play styles would exacerbate that issue even further.
    Like I said, I wouldn't replace dual-wield from enhancement. That'd be hypocritical off me, as I got my 2H replaced out of the blue so I wouldn't put anyone else through that.

    I would make it a option in the talent tree, a passive effect with huge bonuses. Like increases the Windfury %, allowing Stormstrike and Lava Lash to be used whilst 2H is equipped, etc etc.

    I don't see a problem with that. Talents should give the option to play the spec differently, 2H does that.

  6. #26
    If abilities dont do exact same damage and yield exact same dps, no one will use alternative weapon play style. That decision must be made blizzard and rather has been made.. Which is duel wielding.

    I would love comeback of 2handed but like advent says some people like duel wield (i dont know why? Is it the looks? No one says why). And we will never know how many of shaman players want 2h back and frankly i dont think blizzard would care. It's their vision of class. But since its a forum for people like us, i wish people would discuss why they like duel wielding compared to 2handed weapons in detail. Maybe it would change my look at it too.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Oturanboa View Post
    If abilities dont do exact same damage and yield exact same dps, no one will use alternative weapon play style. That decision must be made blizzard and rather has been made.. Which is duel wielding.

    I would love comeback of 2handed but like advent says some people like duel wield (i dont know why? Is it the looks? No one says why). And we will never know how many of shaman players want 2h back and frankly i dont think blizzard would care. It's their vision of class. But since its a forum for people like us, i wish people would discuss why they like duel wielding compared to 2handed weapons in detail. Maybe it would change my look at it too.
    Let me put it like this, instead of having elemental wolves, the tier 100 talents would be.

    Two-Handed Specialisation, Earthen Spike and Ascendance.

    The 2H talent would come with increased base damage, increased to maelstrom generation and windfury chance. So overall, they could balance the talent so it was in line with Earthen Spike and Ascendance in -OVERALL- dps.

    That would be doable and would give the shamans who want 2H back. It would also keep dual-wield too, obviously.

  8. #28
    It's like you want everything that made Shaman a chore reintroduced. Tying buffs to totems was horrendous, especially when they were easily killed or you were kited out of them. Shaman have wanted a secondary resource since they were added for other classes, and Casino Fury, while fun when it procced, was not engaging gameplay. Also the lack of CC would make them persona non grata in any kind of challenging content that recquired any form of mob control.

    I always thought that their identity should revolve more around spiritual aid instead of purely calling elements, since Shaman are meant to be the spiritual leaders of their people.

    Also, the plural of Shaman is Shaman.
    RETH

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Razaron View Post
    Let me put it like this, instead of having elemental wolves, the tier 100 talents would be.

    Two-Handed Specialisation, Earthen Spike and Ascendance.

    The 2H talent would come with increased base damage, increased to maelstrom generation and windfury chance. So overall, they could balance the talent so it was in line with Earthen Spike and Ascendance in -OVERALL- dps.

    That would be doable and would give the shamans who want 2H back. It would also keep dual-wield too, obviously.
    And like you have been told, they can't. They already tried it with war fury 1h and 2h back in TBC and it did not work out. It is too difficult and too much work for low return. Period.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    And like you have been told, they can't.
    I don’t think you’ve read the thread, nobody has said that at all, but welcome.

    They already tried it with war fury 1h and 2h back in TBC and it did not work out. It is too difficult and too much work for low return. Period.
    The game has changed a lot since TBC, like the above posters have said. So the balancing issues Fury had in TBC is completely different because of the way the damage works now. Your argument is 12 years out of date I’m afraid.

    It’s also there job to balance talents, it’s one talent with passive numbers on. It wouldn’t be as hard as you’re probably thinking. The difficulty would probably be other nuisances, like allowing shamans to get back on the 2H loot table, through a activation of a talent.

    Those are the sort of difficulties it would have, but again this is just what I’d like to see, like a lot of enhancement shamans.

  11. #31
    I’d prefer them to go back to the start of legion enhance. Maintain 3 elemental buffs, storm strike on cd/proc, crash lightning on cd, lava lash filler.

  12. #32
    Get rid of the terrible mealstrom resource for a start, just give me MoP shaman and i would probably start playing again. enhance and Ele where both fun to play pvp and pve.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Mallish View Post
    Get rid of the terrible mealstrom resource for a start, just give me MoP shaman and i would probably start playing again. enhance and Ele where both fun to play pvp and pve.
    Elemental in MoP was perfect, I really miss lightning bolt on the move.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Jotaux View Post
    Elemental in MoP was perfect, I really miss lightning bolt on the move.
    While MoP Ele had a lot of upsides, the spec was far too one dimensional after some time.

    The rotation was so damn simple, not even the set bonuses of MoP really mixed it up, the only "variation" you got in via Elemental Blast, Unleash Elements actually being used due to Unleashed Fury, or nothing at all if you went with PE.

    It was cool, but i honestly prefer the current / Legion version of Elemental, spells like Icefury / Stormkeeper are really thematically fitting.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    While MoP Ele had a lot of upsides, the spec was far too one dimensional after some time.

    The rotation was so damn simple, not even the set bonuses of MoP really mixed it up, the only "variation" you got in via Elemental Blast, Unleash Elements actually being used due to Unleashed Fury, or nothing at all if you went with PE.

    It was cool, but i honestly prefer the current / Legion version of Elemental, spells like Icefury / Stormkeeper are really thematically fitting.
    I never want to see unleash elements back again for ele or enhance. It was such a boring ability.

  16. #36
    For me I like where shamans are at right now. Especially enhancement spec. For me it's the most fun class and spec to play as. If there were to be any changes in the next expansion I only ask that there be more involvement with totems. I want to plant my buff totems again or at least my Searing Totem. It's what really made shamans stick out from the rest. As much fun as I have with them they just feel like a warrior with magical powers.

    Other than that I don't want shamans to change that much as I think they're almost perfect the way they are. Just add more totem abilities and they'd be perfect.

  17. #37
    Over 9000! Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geminiwolf View Post
    For me I like where shamans are at right now. Especially enhancement spec. For me it's the most fun class and spec to play as. If there were to be any changes in the next expansion I only ask that there be more involvement with totems. I want to plant my buff totems again or at least my Searing Totem. It's what really made shamans stick out from the rest. As much fun as I have with them they just feel like a warrior with magical powers.

    Other than that I don't want shamans to change that much as I think they're almost perfect the way they are. Just add more totem abilities and they'd be perfect.
    If that were to be done then something would need to change with the initial set up, that is, flametongue/frostband.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Razaron View Post
    I never want to see unleash elements back again for ele or enhance. It was such a boring ability.
    I liked it on a conceptual level, the Shaman weapon enchants were quite fitting in terms of theme, but their gameplay was basically just to renew a 60 minute buff.
    Especially that you pretty much never switched those enchants, Ele was Flametongue, Resto was Earthliving, Enhance was Windfury / Flametongue, with the only switch being for Enhance to Windfury / Frostbrand in PvP.

    I had hoped that Unleash Elements might give you some purpose to think over those weapon enchants, but it just turned into a "keep it on CD and don't think over it" button (or just never use it as Ele because it was undertuned), except for Resto, but even there, the idea of ever switching a weapon enchant just never happened.

    It's one of those things that can work if you give it some proper gameplay, but i fear that if Blizzard decides to return that stuff, they just bring those abilities 1:1 back in order to appease the "flavor" crowd.

  19. #39
    Revert ele and resto back to how it was in Mists of Panda
    No idea about enhancement..
    im cool pls respodn

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I liked it on a conceptual level, the Shaman weapon enchants were quite fitting in terms of theme, but their gameplay was basically just to renew a 60 minute buff.
    Especially that you pretty much never switched those enchants, Ele was Flametongue, Resto was Earthliving, Enhance was Windfury / Flametongue, with the only switch being for Enhance to Windfury / Frostbrand in PvP.

    I had hoped that Unleash Elements might give you some purpose to think over those weapon enchants, but it just turned into a "keep it on CD and don't think over it" button (or just never use it as Ele because it was undertuned), except for Resto, but even there, the idea of ever switching a weapon enchant just never happened.

    It's one of those things that can work if you give it some proper gameplay, but i fear that if Blizzard decides to return that stuff, they just bring those abilities 1:1 back in order to appease the "flavor" crowd.
    Yea unleash elements was good on paper but sucked on reality. This kind "synergic" abilities are fine when they are to a limit. Like stormstrike used to buff nature damage taken and your earth shock would do %20 more damage. But it was shared cooldown with frost shock's utility and flameshock's overall damage done was always better so it was an actual decision in a pvp environment.

    I'm not saying they should bring it back but today's "synergy" of abilities (using this word too much since it was used back in those days when these changes were made) is basicly ramp up to a place you can hope for good rng. Flametongue / frostbrand is worst kind of "synergy". I doesnt add any depth to gameplay just makes it a chore. Flametongue doesnt even have cd becouse it sucks incredibly. All the while it stands like a stone guardian in front of our way to any kind of on demand (not even "burst") damage.

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