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  1. #41
    Utility Totems as baseline. Fun and interesting abilities for new totems

    Ancestral Protection Totem - Baseline for all 3 specs
    Wind Rush Totem - Baseline for all 3 specs

    *new*
    Sentry Totem - X% Mana - Friendly allies within 20 yards of your Sentry Totem gain increased stealth detection for Y seconds.
    Windwall Totem - X% Mana - Summon a windwall totem that blows back enemies in 10 yards repeatedly for 3 seconds.
    Resistance Totem - X% Mana - Summon a resistance totem that reduces the damage of the next Fire, Frost, or Nature spell against friendly targets in the totem by X%.



    Redesign the Totem visuals into Enhancement's playstyle.

    Rename Rockbiter to Strength of Earth Totem

    Strength of Earth Totem - 30 yards. Place an earth totem that shocks your target for X dmg. While the shaman is in range of strength of earth, consecutive uses will cast Rockbiter on the target. If the shaman moves more than 30 yards from the totem, a new totem will be placed.

    Searing Totem - 30 yards. Place a fire totem that burns your target for X dmg. While the shaman is in range of searing totem, your weapons are enhanced with fire causing X fire damage.

    Frostbrand Totem - 30 yards. Place a water totem that shocks your target for X dmg and slows them. While the shaman is in range of Frostbrand Totem, your weapons are enhanced with frost slowing enemies that are hit by 50%.

    This would allow the same gameplay as we have now, except make proper use of Racial Totems.



    Redesign Enhance AoE. Crash Lightning works as a builder for AoE, with Earthquake given to Enhance as a maelstrom dump, similar to Ele's Chain Lightning and Earthquake.

    Enhance: Slame your weapons into the ground causing an earthquake, dealing X dmg to targets in the area.


    Make Windfury a controlled nuke, the way Earth Shock is for Elemental. Build up, and then actually press Windfury as a button to unleash a giant burst of damage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelthon
    do i wanting my cat come the expansion due to signifying a reroll fresh scratch the night elf mage?

  2. #42
    since holinka admited they should return to class identity : i strongly want to see the totems are back and see shaman a "joker" class again...

  3. #43
    One thing I would think though, I cant chip in too much as im not a main Shaman even though id say its my favorite class lore wise, just cant get into it mechanically.

    With the recognition of class identity not spec, id think that Shaman would benefit more than any other class off that. I always thought in terms of DPS shaman identity that it was a very intertwined blend between melee and ranged. I actually felt like both enhancement and elemental were sort of fake, almost like DPS shaman should just be a single spec or something, it felt like they took a concept and ripped it in half. One half became a heavy ranged spec with no melee ability and the other vica versa.

    Id love to see an Enhancement with more ranged ability, and an elemental with more melee ability. maybe upon proccing a big CD you could empower a huge stormstrike, or instead throw a big lightning bolt/chain lighting out for some ranged ability. I feel like it should have more ability via the elements and totems than purely through hitting things with your weapon.

    It kinda would be like removing the deathcoil/disease spread from an UH DK I guess? In that, UH DK is melee but has quite a few important ranged attacks like death coil.

    Maybe Shaman could get a few Ele abilities back or something.

  4. #44
    I would like to c blizzard move away from every spec being builder spender. Enh/ele don’t feel good as builder spender specs.

    Enh is weird now, storm strike spam doesn’t feel good. I don’t even notice wf procs now. It’s not anything like the enh I fell in love with back in the day.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    With the recognition of class identity not spec, id think that Shaman would benefit more than any other class off that. I always thought in terms of DPS shaman identity that it was a very intertwined blend between melee and ranged. I actually felt like both enhancement and elemental were sort of fake, almost like DPS shaman should just be a single spec or something, it felt like they took a concept and ripped it in half. One half became a heavy ranged spec with no melee ability and the other vica versa.

    Id love to see an Enhancement with more ranged ability, and an elemental with more melee ability. maybe upon proccing a big CD you could empower a huge stormstrike, or instead throw a big lightning bolt/chain lighting out for some ranged ability. I feel like it should have more ability via the elements and totems than purely through hitting things with your weapon.

    Maybe Shaman could get a few Ele abilities back or something.
    Even while yea "specs make classes 1/3 of what they are" usually, its more of a slight playstyle change for most classes but with shamans and druids its totally another class. While its hard for druids to use each specs spells to use with one another, its easier to keep "shaman sense" within each spec. I agree your post totally. Elemental and resto should fancy some wf here and there and enhancement should fancy lightning bolts here and there.

    Though not with procs, but on "oh sht" moments. Procs mean keepin it in rotation or something and usually making it not worth. While it shouldnt be needed for elemental, their melee should deal some good damage and not totally feel like wet paper. Enhancement should be able to use ranged attacks on times it cant get into melee range. Not with full utility but something fine.

    I think a lot could be done with class as a whole to make it awesome. Most classes are defined with what they should do (warrior priest mage warlock etc), but some classes like shaman gives blizzard total freedom to be awesome. Specially with this environment where gear has adaptive stats and balance is much easier to manage unlike previous decade.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Oturanboa View Post
    Even while yea "specs make classes 1/3 of what they are" usually, its more of a slight playstyle change for most classes but with shamans and druids its totally another class. While its hard for druids to use each specs spells to use with one another, its easier to keep "shaman sense" within each spec. I agree your post totally. Elemental and resto should fancy some wf here and there and enhancement should fancy lightning bolts here and there.

    Though not with procs, but on "oh sht" moments. Procs mean keepin it in rotation or something and usually making it not worth. While it shouldnt be needed for elemental, their melee should deal some good damage and not totally feel like wet paper. Enhancement should be able to use ranged attacks on times it cant get into melee range. Not with full utility but something fine.

    I think a lot could be done with class as a whole to make it awesome. Most classes are defined with what they should do (warrior priest mage warlock etc), but some classes like shaman gives blizzard total freedom to be awesome. Specially with this environment where gear has adaptive stats and balance is much easier to manage unlike previous decade.
    Yeah 100% thats what I mean, I always had the idea of like, if you look at thrall in WC3, Hes technically elemental in WoW sense, in that he casts chain lightning, throws lightning 'balls' and can cast Earthquake, but look at him, and we also know a ton about Thrall now, and hes essentially also enhancement, hes armoured, and wields a hammer, so you know he can get down in a melee scrap. Now obviously his ability is trumped up as he is a major lore figure, but heres kinda how I saw it. Lets use Orc as example, so imagine a tribe. There might be a more muscular aggressive warrior type, who gains the self control and ability to use the elements, hes essentially an enhancement (quite literally enhancing his armed combat with the elements) and his preference is to get into a fight with weapons and armor, and mixing in the elements to help him win, but he can still stir up some ranged ability (imagine thrall doing the grab on garrosh from the ground) something imobilizing, or a lightning bolt, its just not quite as honed in and powerful.

    Then there would be your more farseer type, less physical prowess and prefers to gain an absolute mastery over the elements, can do enomormously powerful things with the elements, huge earthquakes, storms etc. But at the end of the day, he/she is still an Orc and can pick up an axe and get down in a fight. Right now it feels like the elemental melee side is purely cosmetic and equally the enhancement ranged side is the same.

    I think they could make a damn awesome bunch of changes to shaman if they really thought about this, it would also give them tons more freedom to balance, they could share abilities cross specs where each of them are weak. E.G. Enhancement has weak AOE, well let them use their CD's, and then cast empowered earthquakes, you have just fixed a big hole in that spec.

    I guess ultimately the difference gameplay wise would be that, one spec (elemental) sustains their overall damage from range, while enhancement sustains their overall damage from melee, both share certain abilities and have the ability to swap into their opposite for short periods and still deal great damage if needed. Id love that.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Yeah 100% thats what I mean, I always had the idea of like, if you look at thrall in WC3, Hes technically elemental in WoW sense, in that he casts chain lightning, throws lightning 'balls' and can cast Earthquake, but look at him, and we also know a ton about Thrall now, and hes essentially also enhancement, hes armoured, and wields a hammer, so you know he can get down in a melee scrap. Now obviously his ability is trumped up as he is a major lore figure, but heres kinda how I saw it. Lets use Orc as example, so imagine a tribe. There might be a more muscular aggressive warrior type, who gains the self control and ability to use the elements, hes essentially an enhancement (quite literally enhancing his armed combat with the elements) and his preference is to get into a fight with weapons and armor, and mixing in the elements to help him win, but he can still stir up some ranged ability (imagine thrall doing the grab on garrosh from the ground) something imobilizing, or a lightning bolt, its just not quite as honed in and powerful.

    Then there would be your more farseer type, less physical prowess and prefers to gain an absolute mastery over the elements, can do enomormously powerful things with the elements, huge earthquakes, storms etc. But at the end of the day, he/she is still an Orc and can pick up an axe and get down in a fight. Right now it feels like the elemental melee side is purely cosmetic and equally the enhancement ranged side is the same.

    I think they could make a damn awesome bunch of changes to shaman if they really thought about this, it would also give them tons more freedom to balance, they could share abilities cross specs where each of them are weak. E.G. Enhancement has weak AOE, well let them use their CD's, and then cast empowered earthquakes, you have just fixed a big hole in that spec.

    I guess ultimately the difference gameplay wise would be that, one spec (elemental) sustains their overall damage from range, while enhancement sustains their overall damage from melee, both share certain abilities and have the ability to swap into their opposite for short periods and still deal great damage if needed. Id love that.
    Agreed totally. On top of that i dont think enhancement's lightning bolt should be any weaker than elemental's. If you wanna stand at your place and cast a spell it should hit as much as elemental. But since your talents wont give you any procs or whatever they might be, it wont give you an edge like it does with elemental talents so you will never prefer it over your melee attacks. But nevertheless it should hit just as much as an elemental shaman's lightning bolt. Keep lava burst as a talent i wouldnt care but core shaman abilities should be available and be worth to be used even if stuationally.

  8. #48
    I wouldn't want to go back to be a 2H spec. Enh has been DW for too long to just go back to it.

    I think going back to class fantasy will probably mean that we WILL get our shocks back instead of weapon enchants being rotational, which I really can't wait!

    I'd like if they went back to something closer to what we were from BC -> WoD. I only started to like enh less with the legion rework. Specially since at first it was really feast or famine without WF at 20% proc chance. Plus, I loved how enh was bascially an ele shaman hitting you in your face with weapons and lightning bolts / shocks. I also loved how enh didn't depend on a ressource. We have had the whole shamanistic rage every minute to keep mana up, but we never felt like we were out of juice really. MW charges opened up possibilities. Will I throw a healing rain? Will I throw a bigger heal just for myself? A Lightning bolt? Or maybe a chain lightning? Maybe it will be a hex too, who knows!

    WoD rotation had become TOO fast and too much like piano, but the spec working since BC so I don't see why they couldn't go back to that while re-adding the fun parts of the new spec. SB procs ARE fun IMO... but being rage based is not... although we unsurprisingly reached exactly what I reported in the legion beta, maelstrom will always feel too limiting or we will just not care about it making it superficial. We worried about it during the first months of legion... then we got fixed and we stopped caring about it. Some said we NEED to have a ressources or we are hell to balance. Yet, ret pallies pretty much have a similar gameplay to old enh. They use abilities that generates charges and use it for templar's verdict (LB) or divine storm (CL). It more different than that but the principle is the same. The biggest difference was that old enh could use LB/CL (and others) without having reached the 5 charges.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    I actually felt like both enhancement and elemental were sort of fake, almost like DPS shaman should just be a single spec or something, it felt like they took a concept and ripped it in half. One half became a heavy ranged spec with no melee ability and the other vica versa.
    I disagree.
    Heavily.

    Shaman in Warcraft 3 were presented as your standard caster unit, with the regular Shaman being a squishy ranged support caster and the Farseer summoning minions to tank for him and having good AoE capabilities.
    Shaman were basically the orcish counterpart to the Human Archmage / Sorceress.

    The idea of the Shaman having an actual melee option is pretty much a WoW thing, perhaps inspired by Thrall, but Thrall is far from a regular Shaman.
    The fact that he wore Plate armor and used a 2h Weapon is a decent hint, the characterization itself touched upon the point that Thrall was more dressed like a Warrior rather than shaman before Cata.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Id love to see an Enhancement with more ranged ability,maybe upon proccing a big CD you could empower a huge stormstrike, or instead throw a big lightning bolt/chain lighting out for some ranged ability. I feel like it should have more ability via the elements and totems than purely through hitting things with your weapon.
    If i select a Melee spec, i actually want to play a Melee spec.
    Ever since Maelstrom weapon, i ditched Enhancement, because this idea of mixing Melee abilities and spells led to this weird playstyle of you smashing at a target, then suddenly your character putting its weapon away to throw in some random cast.

    Enhancement should be about delivering Elemental empowered weapon strikes, that's what the name of the spec implies, enhancing your strikes with elemental power.

    I am fine with Enhancement obviously using utility based tools similiar to Elemental / Resto, but i do not want to move back to the point where Enhancement and Elemental basically have the same ability toolkit, except for Lava burst, Stormstrike and Lava lash, it was boring - on both ends, because as Elemental i actually want powerful abilities that set myself apart from the other two specs, not just having mine deal more damage.
    (which is kinda the point of having a specialization, right?)

    Those specs simply use their powers differently, that should be reflected in their toolkit.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-07-04 at 09:47 PM.

  10. #50
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    I loved shaman when it was initially released. Sticked to it until end of Wrath. I liked that it still had that support factor to it. I was dealing good dps, putting useful totems and throwing an occasional heal here and there. Then they really stripped this class and I have never managed to return to it despite many tries.
    Bring back the support that shamans brought, even the flat buff totems. It was just FUN.
    S.H.

  11. #51
    Some thoughts for the future of the Shaman class.

    All specs
    - Stone Bulwark Totem: Creates an absorb shield on the caster similar to the Azerite trait Resounding Protection. The shield will regenerate as long as the totem exists.
    - Ascendance becomes baseline for all specs.

    Elemental

    - Earthen Rage becomes baseline.
    - Elemental Blast triggers all 3 stat increases, but at lower values.
    - Storm Elemental becomes its own spell. All 3 Elemental summons share different CDs, so they can be used together.
    - The PvP talent Elemental Attunement becomes baseline.
    - The Azerite trait Igneous Potential becomes baseline.
    - The Azerite trait Overwhelming Power replaces the current talent Unlimited Power.

    Enhancement
    - Searing Assault and Hailstorm become baseline.
    - Feral Lunge also becomes baseline. If Feral Spirits is active when used, they will attack the same target.
    - Doom Vortex and Wind Strike, traits from the Doomhammer artifact, become baseline.
    - Earth Shield works differently for Enhancement. It now grants a small amount of damage reduction (no more than 10%).
    - The Azerite traits Thunderous Blast and Heed My Call becomes baseline.

    Restoration
    - Unleash Life and Wellspring become baseline.
    - The PvP talent Ancestral Gift becomes baseline.
    - The Azerite traits Overflowing Shores and Concentrated Mending become baseline.
    - The Scepter of Tides artifact traits Empowered Droplets and Tidal Pools become baseline.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I disagree.
    Heavily.

    Shaman in Warcraft 3 were presented as your standard caster unit, with the regular Shaman being a squishy ranged support caster and the Farseer summoning minions to tank for him and having good AoE capabilities.
    Shaman were basically the orcish counterpart to the Human Archmage / Sorceress.

    The idea of the Shaman having an actual melee option is pretty much a WoW thing, perhaps inspired by Thrall, but Thrall is far from a regular Shaman.
    The fact that he wore Plate armor and used a 2h Weapon is a decent hint, the characterization itself touched upon the point that Thrall was more dressed like a Warrior rather than shaman before Cata.



    If i select a Melee spec, i actually want to play a Melee spec.
    Ever since Maelstrom weapon, i ditched Enhancement, because this idea of mixing Melee abilities and spells led to this weird playstyle of you smashing at a target, then suddenly your character putting its weapon away to throw in some random cast.

    Enhancement should be about delivering Elemental empowered weapon strikes, that's what the name of the spec implies, enhancing your strikes with elemental power.

    I am fine with Enhancement obviously using utility based tools similiar to Elemental / Resto, but i do not want to move back to the point where Enhancement and Elemental basically have the same ability toolkit, except for Lava burst, Stormstrike and Lava lash, it was boring - on both ends, because as Elemental i actually want powerful abilities that set myself apart from the other two specs, not just having mine deal more damage.
    (which is kinda the point of having a specialization, right?)

    Those specs simply use their powers differently, that should be reflected in their toolkit.
    Well I would also disagree heavily actually.

    First of all, yes for balance only reasons shaman/farseer are the equivalent of human archmage/sorceress, except that if you look visually, they throw lightning bolts while wearing clawed melee weapons, furthermore in the lore there are many more examples proving this. Drek'thar is clearly a shaman, but look at how he is portrayed in every single representation, he looks like the hulk and carries two vicious looking weapons. He is essentially using the elements almost as a warrior to enhance not only his strikes but also in other ways. Such as shown in the Warcraft movie. If I remember correctly he causes a huge landslide. He is a blind warrior that uses the elements to enhance himself.

    That is the second place I would disagree, where does it state that the enhancement is specifically to the weapon strikes, it could very well be quite general, enhancing the warrior, the weapons, or both. Thrall also demonstrates this. Yes Thrall is essentially a warrior, as is made clear in the lore when he escapes from Durnholde keep, but then he learns the elements, he is quite literally a warrior shaman, he is both, and that is my exact point, there are many ways to skin a cat but in my eyes, making the shaman lobsided dosent make it very interesting.

    I think it would be great to see the following, think of resto as farseer, elemental as the shaman of WC3, and enhancement as something closer to my description above.

    As you said, if you want to play a melee then you want basically only melee. I dont like that and I've mained melee from day 1, eventually maining DK since WoTLK and one of the things I love is deathcoil, chains of ice, howling blast, these all give me ranged ability. I dont see why shaman isnt the same if not even more capable at range. Imagine enhance had its own chains of ice where a giant rock fist came out of the ground and grabbed your enemy, like when Thrall faced Garrosh, dont you think that would add to the flavor of the class?

    There will always be people who disagree and thats fine, this is preference and opinion after all and I respect your opnion to want to keep them seperated, I feel the opposite that without the mix its a weird playstyle and you dont even really feel like a shaman at all.

    Personally I hope that this 'class' not 'spec' idea means that what I want becomes more true, where enhancement and elemental start to share some basic concepts but I guess we will see. Ultimately, I just think Shaman having a bit more of a unique ability within the melee category similar to DK to do some nice ranged damage would set them apart and give them some well needed flavor, changes that might help balance them, and generally change the spec which I think im safe to say is mostly disliked from what I can see places like here. The future will tell
    Last edited by JavelinJoe; 2019-07-05 at 04:10 PM.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Drek'thar is clearly a shaman, but look at how he is portrayed in every single representation, he looks like the hulk and carries two vicious looking weapons.
    The primary reason being that Blizzard decided to give him a warrior ability toolkit in AV for [reasons], which was his first appearance in WoW, in Warcraft 3, he was shown as regular Farseer.

    In AV, he doesn't even use a single shaman related ability.

    That aside, Drek'thar sits in a wheelchair since Cata.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    That is the second place I would disagree, where does it state that the enhancement is specifically to the weapon strikes
    If you look at the Vanilla / TBC talent tree, the talent tree very much focuses around enhancing your Melee abilities / enhancing totems.
    Actually throwing in Lightning bolt / CL didn't appear until Wotlk with Maelstrom weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    I think it would be great to see the following, think of resto as farseer
    but the Warcraft 3 Farseer doesn't even have a single healing ability...?

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    As you said, if you want to play a melee then you want basically only melee. I dont like that and I've mained melee from day 1, eventually maining DK since WoTLK and one of the things I love is deathcoil, chains of ice, howling blast, these all give me ranged ability. I dont see why shaman isnt the same if not even more capable at range.
    The crucial difference is that DK doesn't have a spec that focuses on ranged attacks.

    To make an important distinction here, i don't mind Enhance having a ranged ability, it should just make sense and have a unique appeal to it.
    For example, take Thrall throwing a Lightning charged Hammer at Mannoroth in the Warcraft 3 cinematic, that's actually pretty cool, it makes it very much an Enhancement ability as he is employing a Weapon rather than pure spells, but still gives it a very Shaman like feeling.

    The problem for me just arises once Enhancement literally uses the same spells as Elemental, it ruins the distinction between two specs that should have a better separation based on the fact that one is a spellcaster and the other a Melee fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Imagine enhance had its own chains of ice where a giant rock fist came out of the ground and grabbed your enemy, like when Thrall faced Garrosh, dont you think that would add to the flavor of the class?
    Sure, but Shaman doesn't.
    I've said above that i don't mind Enhance having the same utility toolkit as Ele.

    You just seem to advocate how it was in Wotlk-WoD, with Enhance and Elemental basically used a very similiar toolkit, which i felt made Elemental feel a lot worse.
    Because it felt like Elemental wasn't a true specialization, but rather just "an improvement", it didn't have any special stuff on its own.

    This problem loops for me back to Enhancement as well, if i switch from a pure spellcaster to a melee fighter and end up having almost the same attacks...it's just weird.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    I feel the opposite that without the mix its a weird playstyle and you dont even really feel like a shaman at all.
    The problem is where the fantasy based on a character clashes with gameplay in an MMO, some things simply don't translate well into gameplay.

    For example, originally the idea of Druid was to be an actual shapeshifter, like using every animal form, they ditched that even before Beta because it didn't work out properly, since day 1 Druid has stuck with each spec focusing on a specific form (more or less).

    The issue at hand is how this also translates into actual gameplay, how do you actually want to give Elemental "more melee abilities"? Simply throw stuff like Primal Strike back into your spellbook and call it a day?

    I mean, if you decided to focus on your spellcasting abilities, you want to stand at range, if you give Elemental abilities like Stormstrike, you basically make them a Melee caster, they need to stand in Melee range to take advantage of their full toolkit, but do mostly just spellcasting, which is kinda weird.

  14. #54
    The primary reason being that Blizzard decided to give him a warrior ability toolkit in AV for [reasons], which was his first appearance in WoW, in Warcraft 3, he was shown as regular Farseer.

    In AV, he doesn't even use a single shaman related ability.

    That aside, Drek'thar sits in a wheelchair since Cata.
    Every depiction of Drek'Thar since WC3 he has been shown as a warrior and a shaman, someone absolutely capable of fighting, you cant base your entire argument there on the fact hes depicted in old models in game that way. Lore wise, that is what he is.

    In AV, he dosent even use a single shaman ability, okay, great, so we can agree he absolutely 100% is a shaman in lore, yet in AV hes essentially a warrior, thats my point.
    If you look at the Vanilla / TBC talent tree, the talent tree very much focuses around enhancing your Melee abilities / enhancing totems.
    Actually throwing in Lightning bolt / CL didn't appear until Wotlk with Maelstrom weapon.
    Personally I dont think this is really relevant, just because something existed in some way during classic dosent make it set in stone nor does it even make it correct to blizzards own interpretation of what enhancement is. Who is to say the WoTLK version isnt correct and vanilla incorrect. All the lore characters demonstrate different to vanillas interpretation of enhancement being nearly unable to do anything outside of striking with weapons.

    The crucial difference is that DK doesn't have a spec that focuses on ranged attacks.

    To make an important distinction here, i don't mind Enhance having a ranged ability, it should just make sense and have a unique appeal to it.
    For example, take Thrall throwing a Lightning charged Hammer at Mannoroth in the Warcraft 3 cinematic, that's actually pretty cool, it makes it very much an Enhancement ability as he is employing a Weapon rather than pure spells, but still gives it a very Shaman like feeling.
    I dont see why that is crucial at all. Heres the crux of it. Theres absolutely no reason what so ever that a melee class cant have strong ranged attacks, or a ranged class cant have strong melee attacks, as long as its temporary, survival hunter again is an example of this, where they have a CD to make them ranged for a period which is brilliant and adds so much flavor. Enhancement IS a shaman, they should wield the ability to use it outside of hitting, as I said, they dont have 100% mastery over many ranged elements as they are more warriors, but they still do have the ability to do something. As you said, maybe a lightning charged hammer, I dont know, im sure I could come up with stuff, but why not chain lightning, thrall does it in WC3, its something that is shaman through and through, and with blizzards acknowlegement that the specs are too refined and not based on the classes enough, I think this is something that should be shared, or earthquake, I dont know.

    The problem for me just arises once Enhancement literally uses the same spells as Elemental, it ruins the distinction between two specs that should have a better separation based on the fact that one is a spellcaster and the other a Melee fighter.
    Well it could be argued my argument, is supported by blizzard in this matter. As I said above, they want to share more of the class fantasy among each spec, that would by default mean things like earthquake and chain lightning should be weilded by all shaman specs. I dont think it ruins the distinction at all. If you want to do super powerful consistent chain lightning/earthquake spam, and 90% ranged damage, go elemental, if you want to do 90% melee damage but throw in a really powerful earthquake or chain lightning, but not be able to spam them, then go enhancement, whats the problem with that?

    but the Warcraft 3 Farseer doesn't even have a single healing ability...?
    Im talking more about the fact farseer is the utility ---> would roughly translate into a healer in modern wow, where as the original WC3 shaman is closer to elemental with some enhancement visual stuff in there.

    Sure, but Shaman doesn't.
    Okay, but it should? Its blizzards job as professional developers to develop stuff like this, I could name hundreds of unique and amazing abilities they could add in like this, sure they need to be balanced, but adding class flavor is not a hard task.

    You just seem to advocate how it was in Wotlk-WoD, with Enhance and Elemental basically used a very similiar toolkit, which i felt made Elemental feel a lot worse.
    Because it felt like Elemental wasn't a true specialization, but rather just "an improvement", it didn't have any special stuff on its own.
    I never played it back then myself, but im not saying they should have all of the same abilities. Im saying there should be things obviously enhance only, say throwing a lightning hammer, and things only for elemental, lets say summoning a giant lightning storm above an area (imagine a lightning version of mages blizzard) but then simple things like chain lightning should be shared and usable by both, or elemental should be able to cast a few melee abilities if needed, but only for a short periods.

    if i switch from a pure spellcaster to a melee fighter and end up having almost the same attacks...it's just weird.
    Again though you are missing my point, im saying they should be seperated and uniquely powerful while being able to share more overall shaman ability, just like what blizzard has already said, and I think this largely means enhancement should regain a lot of things that are only avaliable in a meaningful way to elemental.

    how do you actually want to give Elemental "more melee abilities"? Simply throw stuff like Primal Strike back into your spellbook and call it a day?
    Ill just make a random example, for good or bad, imagine a new CD lets just call it like elemental empowerment and lets say the tooltext is roughly "For the next 10 seconds, your stormstrikes are empowered by X% and your chain lightning is empowered by Y%" where the chain lightning becomes a usable ability for those 10 seconds, in that it is empowered enough to feel devestating to enhancement, after that period it can go back to being largely cosmetic.

    All this is subjective however and preference as I said, I would disagree and say fantasy can and should be balanced, you cant say that things dont translate into gameplay when they havent even tried it. The modern iteration of SV is unique and works very well, and they should do more with that concept that something can be 90% melee and 10% ranged, rather than nearly 100% in one way.

    Look at survival, it was originally planned to be melee in classic and they didnt do it, and I ALWAYS wanted a melee hunter, someone with a spear and fighting alongside their pet, BUT who had the ability to whip out a bow/crossbow, or throw a javelin if they needed to. Think about it logically, a hunter should have a preference for how they like to fight, but they should atleast have a basic grasp of the other elements of fighting, for example fightning mainly with a spear but like I said if needed be able to shoot a bow. And Blizzard have finally executed on that fantasy nearly two decades later. It still needs improvement but its a great start.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    yet in AV hes essentially a warrior, thats my point.
    And dual wields swords (at least until like WoD).
    Before even Shaman could dual wield.

    At a certain point you have to realize that something may be wrong with the depiction of a character, but you'll use it anyway because it support your PoV.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    survival hunter again is an example of this, where they have a CD to make them ranged for a period which is brilliant and adds so much flavor.
    That already exists in the form of Ascendance.

    Which is totally fine, because it's clearly different from Elemental.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    and with blizzards acknowlegement that the specs are too refined and not based on the classes enough
    The issue here is that one should be sane about make a case by case decision, not make broad sweeping decisions.
    I mean people wouldn't also say in order to live the "class fantasy" aspect, Balance should occassionally apply bleeds to people, because feral does that too, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Well it could be argued my argument, is supported by blizzard in this matter.
    We are literally just guessing how much this actually entails.
    Ion basically gave a single example: Alter time and right off the bat said that something like Warrior Stances may be difficult to implement (which is a not too subtle hint that Warrior stances may not be happening).

    Spinning this much further can very much lead to unrealistic expectations.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    if you want to do 90% melee damage but throw in a really powerful earthquake or chain lightning, but not be able to spam them, then go enhancement, whats the problem with that?
    Imagine if a Fire Mage every once in a while would deliver an utterly powerful Frostbolt, whereas the Frost Mage Frostbolt is just a regular filler that doesn't do a lot of damage.

    It doesn't make sense, you specialize in a given aspect, so you should be the one delivers the big hits with the abilities you augment, not another spec due to some misguided idea of "class fantasy".

    The point of specializations is to specialize yourself and set yourself apart from the other specs.
    Imagine if Blizzard decides to throw Mortal Strike and Bloodthirst out of the window because "it favors spec identity or class identity", that would be just plain stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Okay, but it should? Its blizzards job as professional developers to develop stuff like this, I could name hundreds of unique and amazing abilities they could add in like this, sure they need to be balanced, but adding class flavor is not a hard task.
    Matter of fact is, Blizzard talked about adding removed abilities, not adding entirely new abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    lets say summoning a giant lightning storm above an area (imagine a lightning version of mages blizzard)
    Yeah, but they're most likely not doing it.
    Partially because Elemental already has a PBAoE in form of Earthquake.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Again though you are missing my point, im saying they should be seperated and uniquely powerful while being able to share more overall shaman ability
    The reality is that there is not enough room for this.
    If you just dump abilities onto a spec / class, you end up with spells that aren't there to be actually used, but just for "flavor".

    If people want that, that's fine, but i'd rather have some objective purpose behind spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Ill just make a random example, for good or bad, imagine a new CD lets just call it like elemental empowerment and lets say the tooltext is roughly "For the next 10 seconds, your stormstrikes are empowered by X% and your chain lightning is empowered by Y%" where the chain lightning becomes a usable ability for those 10 seconds, in that it is empowered enough to feel devestating to enhancement, after that period it can go back to being largely cosmetic.
    This is exactly those types that i do not want.
    If you want a powerful spells, play the spec that favors spellcasting.

    Yet these points cannot be united with each other in terms of balance, if the spells are too weak, they are barely worth hitting, if they are too strong, you create this weird situation where the another spec occasionally dishes out bigger hits with an ability that actually falls into another specs territory.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    And Blizzard have finally executed on that fantasy nearly two decades later. It still needs improvement but its a great start.
    And i could say that Blizzard finally returned to a proper fantasy of Enhancement by focusing on close range abilities and weapon enchants, rather than this detour started in Wotlk.
    Whereas the gameplay is decent is another debate, but the current version of Enhancement hits closer to home for me than this Mele(e)mental that it was from Wotlk and onwards.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-07-05 at 08:47 PM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    For me:

    Shaman as a Class:
    Core fantasy:
    Totems. A whole lot of totems.
    God, please no. I hated having a million of them throughout the years and I don't want any of them back. Totems don't need to be the class fantasy of Shamans, we can have the elements as our core.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post


    Imagine if a Fire Mage every once in a while would deliver an utterly powerful Frostbolt, whereas the Frost Mage Frostbolt is just a regular filler that doesn't do a lot of damage.

    It doesn't make sense, you specialize in a given aspect, so you should be the one delivers the big hits with the abilities you augment, not another spec due to some misguided idea of "class fantasy".
    I dont think a fire mage's frostbolt should hit any weaker than a frost mage's frostbolt.

    The reason a fire mage should choose firebolt over frostbolt should be about procs and quirks it provides. "If you crit with fire spells x happens" fine, use firebolt. But if you cast 1 frostbolt it should hit as hard as frostmage's frostbolt.

    Whom will this hurt? I think you are taking spec identity a little too far like ion said. You're basicly saying "enhancement's lightning bolt shouldnt hit as hard elemental becouse it will make elemental look bad." It's not true. Dont give enhancement lasso or lava burst. Dont give it earthquake. But if an ability is on my action (like lightning bolt) bar, it should be worth to be used. Is this really asking too much?

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Oturanboa View Post
    The reason a fire mage should choose firebolt over frostbolt should be about procs and quirks it provides. "If you crit with fire spells x happens" fine, use firebolt. But if you cast 1 frostbolt it should hit as hard as frostmage's frostbolt.
    That's just something that was never true at any point in WoW's history.

    Like, take a look at the Vanilla-Wotlk Fire Tree, you had talents that straight up increased the damage / potency of Fireball / Fire spells.
    This is the point of a specialization, You like casting fire spells? Then choose the talent / spec that boosts the damage of your fire spells.

    Same as Enhancement had talent that simply increased your Melee damage, these talents were

    Quote Originally Posted by Oturanboa View Post
    I think you are taking spec identity a little too far like ion said.
    The primary issue was that Blizzard gave a lot of specs, spec specific abilities for the sake of giving them one.

    Warriors are a good example, Heroic Strike was your basic rage dump, the first ability on your bar, yet Blizzard removed it and gave every spec a specific rage dump.

    Similiar thing are DK's, originally, all of them had a basic concept of applying diseases and then using spec specific strikes, with Unholy having a greater emphasis on diseases.
    The entire concept of diseases was basically removed from Frost and Blood, because they wanted to make diseases primarily an Unholy thing.

    Another example, all Warlock specs had access to your basic dots, Curse of Agony, Immolate & Corruption, Blizzard made Corruption and Curse of Agony a Affliction only thing, whereas Immolate became Destro only.

    The crucial difference here is that all those are similiar in their concept, all three warlock specs are a ranged caster, it doesn't hurt to have some ability overlap between Demo and Affliction, similiarly, all three DK specs are essentially unholy knights that focus on necromantic / scourge related abilities.

    Enhancement and Elemental however are different, because one of them is a Melee fighter and the other a spellcaster, a big ability overlap makes far less sense.
    It's like having Feral and Balance and big ability overlap.

    Take Vanilla / TBC as example, Elemental, Enhancement and Resto still had very much a Shaman identity despite not having a big overlap in terms of abilities, because the concept of Shaman being a support oriented class still held true and that was their common ground.

    Simply giving specs a similiar toolkit will not necessarily restore class identity, it will just water down specs, the first and most important aspect of class identity is actually to figure out what the actual identity of a class is in terms of gameplay, rather than throwing spells / ideas around for the sake of flavor.

  19. #59
    At a certain point you have to realize that something may be wrong with the depiction of a character, but you'll use it anyway because it support your PoV.
    Just to start, Im not going to quote everything you said because its turning into page long quote posts. But what you are saying here is that all of blizzards depictions of characters and shamans is just wrong then, and im just making that up to support my PoV, because it sounds like what you are doing is trying to discredit what I have stated multiple times is my personal opinion on a completely preference based topic, so, thank you but I wasnt using it just to support my POV, it IS my POV. I think you should re-read your wording and realise how arrogant that sounds lol. "Your depiction is wrong, and you are just using it to support an argument even though you know you're wrong" is essentially what you are saying haha?

    You keep using Vanilla/TBC as examples, but those days are gone, so accept that.

    I agree with another poster I think you are taking spec fantasy too far and forgetting what Ion said, which I 100% agree with. I wont be disapointed even if they dont do anything, but I agree they have the right idea. I dont enjoy a ton of specs in this game because of that reason, its a spec, not a class. I want as much class flavor as possible, and thats my personal opinion. And you talk about re-adding abilities, whatever, sure, re-add old ones that were removed or make new class fantasy ones, I dont care, my point is the same.

    You are actually ironically the one making such broad sweeping insinuations about what im saying entails, look, I made it exactly clear what I personally would like to see in not only the game, but enhance, so saying about class fantasy not spec, and making out that im making broad sweeping ideas about changing all the classes isnt true, I literally just stated this is something blizzard are interested in, and I agree. Thats it.

    I accept that you personally like tight knit spec specific fantasies, and that you definitely wouldnt want a melee with almost any ranged ability, you made that clear, I want the exact opposite, and thats all there is to it?

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    But what you are saying here is that all of blizzards depictions of characters and shamans is just wrong then
    Go ahead, post the other shaman that exclusively use Warrior abilities and dual wield swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    You keep using Vanilla/TBC as examples, but those days are gone, so accept that.
    The point is that class fantasy isn't necessarily tied to abilites, but can also be tied to a certain theme within a class.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    I agree with another poster I think you are taking spec fantasy too far and forgetting what Ion said
    I don't, i made it perfectly clear where to draw the line.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    whatever, sure, re-add old ones that were removed or make new class fantasy ones, I dont care, my point is the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    You are actually ironically the one making such broad sweeping insinuations about what im saying entails,
    On the one hand, you accuse me of making broad statements, on the other, you basically say of what i accused you in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    I accept that you personally like tight knit spec specific fantasies, and that you definitely wouldnt want a melee with almost any ranged ability
    I've said it above, those abilities need to have a distinction from the spells that Elemental uses.
    Let me rephrase it: If half of my abilities are literally the same spells as the spellcasting spec, i could just play the spellcasting spec.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-07-06 at 11:56 AM.

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