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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The issue of totems remains that they are far too clunky.
    Unless their effects are utterly powerful (like in Classic / TBC) or worse, their effects are also brought by other classes (like in Wotlk-MoP), they should stay from that.

    As a "buff supplier mechanic", they're just worse than regular buffs due to range restriction.
    Do you remember dropping totems in the middle of a boss room so everyone gets the buff?
    I do, meanwhile a DK / Mage hits a button and everyone in 100yards is buffed, even lasts beyond the death of the one who casted that buff.

    As a damage mechanic, they just got ignored by the devs, no interesting mechanic to interact with, nothing.
    You dropped Searing / magma and that's it, no interaction, no special effect, just some pseudo passive damage tickling in.

    Let alone how bad they are in PvP, everybody just runs up to your totems and kills them easily, costing you precious GCD's to re drop them.

    I think there is some leeway for totems as a mechanic, but they primarily work far better as situational / short duration mechanic.
    Wind Rush totem is a good example how the Totem mechanic can be actually good, as it lasts 15 seconds and thus can be better than Stampeding roar in a certain situation.

    Getting some totems back is fine with me, Grounding, Mana Tide, Fire Nova, Resistance Totem(s), yeah, sign me up.
    Buff totems however can fuck off unless they are extremely powerful or not unique to the Shaman class.

    Totems have had worse times than others. It took blizzard way too long before to make it so that you dropped all 4 totems at once which didn't help not feeling clunky.

    You seem to pretty much think that if totems come back, they will be exactly as they were before. There is absolutely nothing preventing blizzard from making some totems have a much bigger radius than the previous 30. They could make them 100 yards and simply go back to 30 in PVP. Even the current talent that drops 4 totems is 40 yards it's only to buff ourselves.

    That's kinda like saying shocks were ignored by devs. They were fillers. You press the button and boom, done. Nothing interesting. They added the flame shock resetting LL CD later on but otherwise, they didn't do much either. Magma totem could simply be replaced by liquid magma totem (and thus baseline). Searing totem at one point had that mechanic where each hit added a debuff that buffed LL dmg by 20% per debuff. It was annoying yes, but still, there is absolutely nothing preventing them from breathing new life into totems. There is nothing preventing you from thinking about good ideas instead of being pessimist about them. A totem is just a spell. A button you press when the situation arises. You are DPSing a ST? LB. A Pack of mobs? CL. That's how it was for our maelstrom spender. You had the very same idea with ST VS MT. The only difference with totems is that they were all up all the time and ended up feeling mostly irrelevant since they were such a low DMG % that they were indeed mostly fillers.

    I honestly don't care about PVP and could care less of their effect in that mode. Done a lot of PVP in the past but now I really don't care. Again, there is nothing preventing them from adding some mechanic to make them stay longer in PVP. Plus, I really hate how some prevent specs from evolving out of fear for PVP. WoW is mainly a PVE game after all.

    IMO it's not about making buff totems extremely powerful but more of a "Ok, we are missing X buff, drop that totem and just make sure it stays up". It's for the flavor of being the combat buffing class we used to be. It's hard to balance since if they are unique, the increased DMG needs to be factored into the shams overall DPS, which sucks for our overall DMG, but if they are really just there to cover for 1 or 2 missing raid buff, then they are just a bonus. That might make shams too desirable but hey, it's not like druids didn't have stampeding roar and many specs have/had cool mechanics that made them just a bit more fun to have around.

    I know totems have had dark times, it doesn't mean that they can't be fixed. It just really sucks that our iconic mechanic is now barely inexistant. Grounding totem is PVP exclusive now, capacitor totem on stunnable mobs... Earthbind sometimes... Tremor totem when you see the spell coming, otherwise it is a shadow of it's former glory... Yep that's it. I got nothing to drop otherwise unless I talent into wind rush or totem mastery. Hell, in legion I liked those moments when I could drop skyfury totem during a world boss. I at least had a little totem doing something for a little while!

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalarm View Post
    They could make them 100 yards and simply go back to 30 in PVP.
    Might as well make them auras like the Paladin ones, at which point they just cease to be totems.

    Matter of fact is, this clunkiness is an inherit part of the totem mechanic, by fixing that you essentially removes what makes totems so special.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalarm View Post
    That's kinda like saying shocks were ignored by devs. They were fillers. You press the button and boom, done. Nothing interesting. They added the flame shock resetting LL CD later on but otherwise, they didn't do much either.
    The crucial difference is that Shocks could be fixed, whereas totems have been just a mess since Wotlk and onwards as core mechanic of the Shaman class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalarm View Post
    Magma totem could simply be replaced by liquid magma totem (and thus baseline).
    And quite a few will then piss and moan because their dps is then so reliant on whether the tanks keeps mobs next to the Totem.

    It's one of those instances where certain spells are just totems for the sake of being one, you carry all the disadvantages without any advantages.
    That is why i highlighted Windrush Totem, because it actually has upsides by being a Totem rather than just having disadvantages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalarm View Post
    It was annoying yes, but still, there is absolutely nothing preventing them from breathing new life into totems. There is nothing preventing you from thinking about good ideas instead of being pessimist about them.
    Take a step back and read that paragraph again.
    You might find the answer why i disagree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalarm View Post
    A totem is just a spell.
    Yes, with a load of drawbacks because it is a static object.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalarm View Post
    I honestly don't care about PVP and could care less of their effect in that mode.
    I do.
    Some care about M+, i don't give a shit about M+.
    Some care about about performance on Mythic raid encounters, others don't.

    For example, i like how Ele is currently and i am fairly certain that refocusing the class back onto totems will ruin that.

    Who's right now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalarm View Post
    IMO it's not about making buff totems extremely powerful but more of a "Ok, we are missing X buff, drop that totem and just make sure it stays up".
    I don't get it.
    On the one side i get the feeling you want totems to be that super important mechanic to Shaman, and there you "yeah, just drop them case we don't have that buff".
    Bit like saying that re introducing Arcane Intellect fixed Mage class design.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalarm View Post
    Tremor totem when you see the spell coming, otherwise it is a shadow of it's former glory
    Okay, how is that different from previously?
    Tremor is a reactive spell, you're not going to use it unless you encounter something that sleeps,fears or charms.

    That's not a class design issue, that's an encounter design issue.

  3. #103
    I quite enjoy elemental as it is now, I do miss MoP elemental where I could lightning bolt on the move though.

    I wish enhance would go back to legion release and just make hailstorm baseline.

  4. #104
    Pit Lord Omians's Avatar
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    I would like to see a return of the 2handed Enhancement Shaman. I like dual wielding but I also like the concept of wielding a wind propelled big fuck off two handed mace or axe. I've been enjoying playing it again in classic wow. I've missed playing it since vanilla.



    But I also would like to see a fourth spec letting Shaman be the first mail armored tank .

    Their gimmick could be environmental AOE tanking with heavy Earth element themeing with fire and water and lightning still in there.

    They could still one on one tank and not be as good as others but they would excel at holding onto groups of enemies and damage reduction buffing the raid. ( like a Priests Barrier)

    I could imagine some abilities like

    Rockwall. It would function like protection Warriors ignore pain but applied as a barrier and giving a buff off a cylinder shaped Zone behind the rock wall and The Rock wall visibly deteriorates as the damage reduction reaches 0.


    Quicksand: you cause a radius of quicksand ensnaring enemies caught Within. Those affected take a 10% to 60% attack and movement speed reduction based on how many are affected for x amount of seconds.


    Earthen grasp ( spammable) : you cause the Earth within a 10-yard Cone to squeeze targets for x amount of damage. If cast into a radius of quicksand Earthen grasp will damage all those affected and refresh ( or extend) Quicksands remaining Duration.
    Omians- 120 Troll Enhancement shaman, Emerald Dream
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  5. #105
    Pit Lord Advent's Avatar
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    I want Stormblast back. Tie it to Maelstrom (Costs 50, maybe), revert the design of the whole spec back to MoP, keep Crash Lightning so it makes Windfury, Stormstrike and Lava Lash cleave. Do that, and I'm a happy camper.

  6. #106
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    just a thematic point of view, i wish shamans in general got more lighting skills, the class be based on that a bit more, they are too much fire and lava shenanigans, look like i am a mage and i don't like that, lighting/wind based would become good differential without stooping using fire and earth.

    i would be happy with a talent/glyph to change lava burst into thunderburst i dunno.

    2H enhancement would be dream of mine too, an option/talent or even just transmog option.


    i hate totens, maybe its because i have the far seer printed in my mind, so i don't like to be forced to use totens so i prefer totens sty s options.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2019-09-11 at 10:54 PM.

  7. #107
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    First of all the game itself needs a rework to improve gameplay, thematics and theme of classes and specs is there but gameplay is shallow and homogenized. But speaking about shamans, their totems need to make a comeback, specifically their buffing totems because they've lost the support aspect of their playstyle having just become standardized dps's and healers, instead of a hybrid class dps's that got good off-healing and buffs and one of the most powerful healers in the game. What each spec needs is a better definition of their identity while both feeling AND performing they are an elemental caster, warrior and healer that also empower others. That's why I think that Shamans need to have both buffing totems and healing abilities become baseline.


    Shamans in general:


    - Make Chain Lightning, Healing Wave, Chain Heal and Healing Rain Baseline.
    - All Shocks should be baseline expect for Enhancement Shamans and they will now have a 40 yard range by default.
    - Buffing totems such as Strength of Earth, Totem of Wrath and Grace of Air returning.
    - Earth Shock now reduces physical damage taken by a small amount.
    - Totems now gain additional effects based on your spec, eks Elemental now increase physical or elemental damage based on the totem cast
    - Elemental and Resto gain Elemental Barrier, A defensive ability that allows them to block 3 attacks and gain an absorbing shield for 15 seconds but requires a shield.
    - Lightning Shield is now baseline.
    - Purge will have a greatly reduced mana cost.
    - Icefury is now baseline and can root targets affected by Frost Shock, has a 8 second CD that can be reset if the target is hit by LB.
    - Ancestral Guidance is now baseline for elemental and enhancement shamans but CANNOT heal them and heals 3 of the most injured targets for 80% of the damage they do.
    - Totemic Projection readded to the game.

    What Shamans need is not only the ability to cast totems but also feel like a hybrid class. In classic, you played as a class with your spec defining how you wanted to play it instead of you now play a role that has a sub-class tied to it.





    Elemental:

    - Shocks can now be spread with CL.

    - Earthquike now applies a stacking slow that knocks down the target after 5 stacks and then give them consistent slow for 3 seconds.
    - Fulnimation will now increase damage done by Earth Shock.
    - Flametounge weapons is now a passive that adds fire damage to melee attacks.
    - Cleancasting will return and now increase the damage of your next damaging spell by 15% and healing spell by 30% and reduce the mana cost of both by 45%, has two stacks.
    - Totems now increases physical, Fire, Frost and Nature damage done by party members.
    - New Fire Totem - Everfire Totem: Increase the duration of damage over time effects by 25% makes them deal an additional 10% of their damage as fire damage.
    - Totem of Wrath returns.

    Elemental as a spec should be a caster with strong offensive utility, especially when it comes to buffing spell damage. Thematically, I don't thing that elemental shamans are the best totem users but instead act as inverted Discipline priests, having strong damage with some healing and buffs.




    Enhancement:

    - Shocks are now replaced by elemental weapon attacks and they now have 4 charges they share. Rockbitter will still reduce physical damage and make your make your next 5 AA's sent rock shards at the target, if they are outside melee range, they will only take damage from the shards instead of also taking melee damage as well. Flametounge has searling assault as a baseline and frostbrand will have hailstorm as baseline. Elemental weapons are spells that are treated as "weapon attacks".
    -Maelstrom is now down to 50 but at 25 maelstrom, you can now insta-cast Lightning and healing spells as shamans used to before legion. Weapon attacks will grant 2 but abilities will grant more.
    - Buffing totems are 30% stronger compared to other totems.
    - Gain Windfury and Stromlash totems each share CD, Windfury will cause all attacks to hit twice for x% damage while Stormlash will add nature damage to all attacks, being more effective with spells.
    - Feral lunge is now baseline.
    - Gains Stone Bulwark Totem.
    - Gains Shamanistic rage.
    - Crash lightning will make Chain Lightning jump to 3+targets hit by Crash lightning, up to 9 target.

    Enhancements I believe should be melee supporters instead of just a raw damage dealing class, the fantasy of them having strong buffing totems while fighting at the frontline with other melees, enhancing them. Their buffing totems are stronger to better fit their jack-of-all-trades role while also having strong melee and decent ranged damage. Windfury totem has always been a stamp of Enhancement Shamans in classic given how they had a talent that buffed it's effect. I think it would be appropriate that Shaman should have that to them as well as Stromlash be a powerful CD for raids. Stone Bulwark should be a somewhat short ranged totem that shields targets close to it.



    Restoration:

    - Water Shield is now an active and Can now cast 1 Elemental shield on a target.
    - Totems will now increase healing received, Resource generation, healing the target for a small amount and movement speed slightly.
    - Earthliving weapons is now baseline and will proc 100% went healing a target below 35% hp.
    - Mana Tide Totem re-added but now shares a CD with healing tide Totem.
    - Resurgence will now make your lightning shield deal damage and heal targets with earth shield based on your healing

    Resto I feel is a pretty complete class considring how blizz has favored it a little too much but I don't thing they need much change. In terms of how they buff the party, I think they should have a bit more supportive ultility instead of offensive/damage or allround stats boosting. I think the concept of them giving an ally an elemental shield could be a cool concept to have and they already have strong totems like healing tide and spirit link totem to heal and help out a raid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Omians View Post
    I would like to see a return of the 2handed Enhancement Shaman. I like dual wielding but I also like the concept of wielding a wind propelled big fuck off two handed mace or axe. I've been enjoying playing it again in classic wow. I've missed playing it since vanilla.



    But I also would like to see a fourth spec letting Shaman be the first mail armored tank .

    Their gimmick could be environmental AOE tanking with heavy Earth element themeing with fire and water and lightning still in there.

    They could still one on one tank and not be as good as others but they would excel at holding onto groups of enemies and damage reduction buffing the raid. ( like a Priests Barrier)

    I could imagine some abilities like

    Rockwall. It would function like protection Warriors ignore pain but applied as a barrier and giving a buff off a cylinder shaped Zone behind the rock wall and The Rock wall visibly deteriorates as the damage reduction reaches 0.


    Quicksand: you cause a radius of quicksand ensnaring enemies caught Within. Those affected take a 10% to 60% attack and movement speed reduction based on how many are affected for x amount of seconds.


    Earthen grasp ( spammable) : you cause the Earth within a 10-yard Cone to squeeze targets for x amount of damage. If cast into a radius of quicksand Earthen grasp will damage all those affected and refresh ( or extend) Quicksands remaining Duration.
    I think if enhancement are gonna be 2H again they should have some defensive power add and/or make Lava Lash work with all weapons.
    Nihilism is not the end but the beginning of what is real. Making something out of nothing.
    Yeah I'm an Asshole but I'd rather be critical as fuck than to sugarcoat everything in fear of offending people. Get tough and endure.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    In the recent Ion 8.2 video he talked about the future of class design. In this thread I would like us to give our own, personal opinions, on where the class and specs should move in 9.0.

    For me:

    Shaman as a Class:
    Core fantasy:
    Totems. A whole lot of totems.
    Today we only use totems as a cooldown, but I would much prefer having totems that give buffs to players like Strength/Agi/Mana regen/WF totems.
    I think Grounding Totem, Tremor Totem and Poison Cleansing Totem should be baseline for the class, at least. Don’t put them as “PvP talents”…
    I would also like to see the return of very situational totems that rarely are useful.

    Earth Shock, Frost Shock and Flame Shock.
    Possibly merge Wind Shear with Earth Shock again?

    Signature spells:
    Heroism/Bloodlust.
    Purge.
    Too many classes has similar spells now. It used to be “our” things. I would like to go back to that.

    Pruning:
    No more Stun/CC. To me, Shaman should never have gotten their Hex nor their stun totem. What made Shamans unique in Vanilla/TBC was no CC at all. This meant we had other, more fun, strengths.

    Enhancement:
    Core fantasy:
    Strong burst windows.

    Signature spells:
    Back to a focus on Windfury.
    Back to being a 2H spec.
    Strong hitting Stormstrike.

    Pruning:
    Possibly removing Maelstorm.
    No more procs reseting the cooldown of Stormstrike. It is supposed to be this strong hitting spell that takes a while to get.

    Elemental:
    Core fantasy:
    Strong burst windows.

    Signature spells:
    Lava Burst
    Chain Lightning

    Pruning:
    Removing Maelstorm. Back to using Mana. The Maelstorm gathering abilities into these unsatisfying Earthquake/Earthshock is not fun.
    No more procs reseting the cooldown of Lava Burst. It is supposed to be this strong hitting spell that takes a while to get.

    Restoration:
    Core fantasy:
    Strong hard casted raid AoE healing.

    Signature spells:
    Chain Heal
    Earth Shield - Should certainly not be a lvl 30 talent - It has been core to the spec since TBC..

    Pruning:
    Instant heals
    Healing rain
    I'd love to see 2H enhance back. I am playing enhance in classic. I think stormbringer would be cool for 2h.

    I kinda miss TBC enhancement. It was cool having the option to DW, 2h or 1h/shield depending on the situation. I'd love to see these options again, and not just for shaman.

  9. #109
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    2h nty

    dw is better
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.
    Classic+ Retune/New Boss Abilities >>> #nochanges crowd

  10. #110
    Under an azerite armor design a 2 handed build could be made possible simularly as primal primer works. If you get the right traits and pick the right talents then you can do it.

    The problen witg a design like that is that someone on the internet will declare one better than the other and everyone who doesnt pick the winner sucks.

    The way I see it azerite will bee left behind and we will go back to tier sets. Leaving only talents for tweaking specs.

    If any I would like one more defensive cd for every spec. Enhancement could use a non talent long CD ability and maybe 1 more melee attack.

    Also, would be cool if thet made those big tauren totems where integrated into the class and enh could smash faces with em or something.

  11. #111
    Old God Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Ditch maelstrom

    If I wanted to play an energy based class, I wouldn't choose shaman

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    Ditch maelstrom
    No thanks.

    People can complain over Maelstrom all they want, but it's better than nothing.
    It didn't alter the Rotation / Priority fundamentally, but added some depth to spells like Fire Elemental and makes talents such as Icefury interesting in the first place.

    It also improved AoE, where you previously just spammed CL or waited for EQ to go off CD, it at least added some variety due to talents like Stormkeeper.

  13. #113
    Elemental Lord matheney2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    Ditch maelstrom

    If I wanted to play an energy based class, I wouldn't choose shaman
    I agree. Every single class is a ''builder/spender'' game play style that is just generic and boring imho.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    No thanks.

    People can complain over Maelstrom all they want, but it's better than nothing.
    It didn't alter the Rotation / Priority fundamentally, but added some depth to spells like Fire Elemental and makes talents such as Icefury interesting in the first place.

    It also improved AoE, where you previously just spammed CL or waited for EQ to go off CD, it at least added some variety due to talents like Stormkeeper.
    Maelstrom has nothing to do with anything you just said, and those things you like could easily live in a world without it.

  14. #114
    Old God Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    No thanks.

    People can complain over Maelstrom all they want, but it's better than nothing.
    It didn't alter the Rotation / Priority fundamentally, but added some depth to spells like Fire Elemental and makes talents such as Icefury interesting in the first place.

    It also improved AoE, where you previously just spammed CL or waited for EQ to go off CD, it at least added some variety due to talents like Stormkeeper.
    I don't play Elemental, but I'm glad you chose not to engage with spamming Stormstrike.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    No thanks.

    People can complain over Maelstrom all they want, but it's better than nothing.
    It didn't alter the Rotation / Priority fundamentally, but added some depth to spells like Fire Elemental and makes talents such as Icefury interesting in the first place.

    It also improved AoE, where you previously just spammed CL or waited for EQ to go off CD, it at least added some variety due to talents like Stormkeeper.
    lololol....

    maelstrom is the 1 who brought boredom into class.
    "at least added some variety due to talents like Stormkeeper." And that's all you came up with? 2 clicks in 60 seconds? lol... you do know that we used to have instant cast, 45 sec, elemental mastery before?
    it was taken away from us and replaced with that ultra-shit stormkeeper (which was artifact ability... which, also, got nerfed lol)

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Maelstrom has nothing to do with anything you just said, and those things you like could easily live in a world without it.
    Of course it does.

    Take Fire Elemental for example, this spell has been an utter mess for over a decade now.

    TBC? 20 Minute CD that doesn't do jackshit.
    Wotlk? Can't use it if you're Elemental because you gotta drop Totem of Wrath.
    Cata? It's finally useful, if the AI wouldn't be broken and the FE actually attack the boss.
    MoP / WoD / Legion? Searing totem on a cooldown.
    BfA? Actually has a point, drop that thing if you have FS running on 2-3 Targets and it actually *feels* like you're using some CD.

    Seriously, dropping FE on Encounters like Orgozoa where you have 3-4 FS running, then see your Maelstrom constantly just fill by itself while also your Lava shock stacks go through the roof is tons of fun.
    Wouldn't work without Maelstrom.

    Or take Icefury, a massive charm of this talent is to juggle with the Maelstrom cap as both Icefury and Frost shock generate MS, you obviously also want to buff Frost shock with Master of the Elements.
    But Lava Burst also generates MS and you obviously also want to buff Earth shock with Master of the Elements.

    Without Maelstorm, it would pretty much just be "yeah, hit that once it's off cd".

    Sorry, but as far as Elemental is concerned, your statement is just false.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    I don't play Elemental, but I'm glad you chose not to engage with spamming Stormstrike.
    The fact that i've used Icefury and Fire Elemental as example, should be a hint that i'm primarily coming from an Elemental PoV.

    If you think Enhancement can do without, go ahead, but as Elemental i prefer Maelstrom over having an utterly simple priority list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    lololol....

    maelstrom is the 1 who brought boredom into class.
    The core function of Maelstrom is the same as Lightning shield.

    You hit Lvb.
    You hit Lb.
    Then you hit ES once you reached a certain cap.

    Sounds familiar somehow?

    As said, it didn't alter things fundamentally.
    If you think Maelstrom made Elemental boring, then you just dislike it by association and not because of how Maelstrom works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    "at least added some variety due to talents like Stormkeeper." And that's all you came up with? 2 clicks in 60 seconds? lol... you do know that we used to have instant cast, 45 sec, elemental mastery before?
    it was taken away from us and replaced with that ultra-shit stormkeeper (which was artifact ability... which, also, got nerfed lol)
    Do you prefer the WoD Version? Or the MoP (Yeah, spamming one button)?
    I'm not saying it's the epitome of class design, but when looking at the previous alternatives, yes i absolutely prefer Maelstrom.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-10-05 at 12:40 PM.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Of course it does.
    The core function of Maelstrom is the same as Lightning shield.

    You hit Lvb.
    You hit Lb.
    Then you hit ES once you reached a certain cap.

    Sounds familiar somehow?

    As said, it didn't alter things fundamentally.
    If you think Maelstrom made Elemental boring, then you just dislike it by association and not because of how Maelstrom works.



    Do you prefer the WoD Version? Or the MoP (Yeah, spamming one button)?
    I'm not saying it's the epitome of class design, but when looking at the previous alternatives, yes i absolutely prefer Maelstrom.
    I actually prefer MOP version, yeah.
    And, if you spammed just 1 button- that shows how bad you played it or never raided HC (before mythic even existed), did CMs, participated in 2.5k+++ mmr pvp.
    Shamans were WAY MORE than just spamming lb.

    The problem with Maelstrom/focus/insanity... etc, etc.... is that it DUMBS CLASS DOWN! It FORCES you to design/play gainer>gainer>spender rotation. It literally forces you to. And, with MP, you could have 973427 rotations/play styles/w/e.... 1 might bring the best result, yeah, that's true. But it's 1 among MANY.

    We had ferals and rogues with combo points... why we had to make every single class a combo gainer/spender class? (rets, shamans, sp... etc, etc, etc) - just, instead of combo points, we got annoying alternatives.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    Shamans were WAY MORE than just spamming lb.
    As far as AoE is concerned, not really, because that segment that you quoted was in particular about AoE.
    A lot of people even there flat out refused to use Earthquake, because it required like 5 targets who had to stand in the area of effect for the entire seconds to be just a marginal dps gain over pure CL spam.

    That aside, a pure one button spam doesn't really fly anymore unless said button totally overtuned.
    Because Blizzard added a bunch of burst AoE buttons post MoP, stuff like Comet Storm, Eye Beam, Summon Frostwyrm, etc. didn't exist back then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    The problem with Maelstrom/focus/insanity... etc, etc.... is that it DUMBS CLASS DOWN!
    Saying that you prefer the MoP version and then talking about how it dumbs things down is just downright hilarious.

    Please tell me, where was the depth of MoP Elemental?
    Which version of Elemental is more complex to play? The current FotM one with Icefury or the MoP where the only "choice" as far as playstyle was between Unleashed Fury, Elemental Blast and Primal Elementalist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    It FORCES you to design/play gainer>gainer>spender rotation. It literally forces you to. And, with MP, you could have 973427 rotations/play styles/w/e.... 1 might bring the best result, yeah, that's true. But it's 1 among MANY.
    So your problem is more the overall class design and not Elemental in particular?
    I've already highlighted this above, Elemental was not fundamentally changed.

    Maelstrom in its essence is Lightning Shield charges, the core Single Target rotation of Elemental hasn't really changed since Cata.

    You apply Flame shock.
    Keep Lava Burst on CD.
    Hit ES whenever you hit the cap.
    Use LB as filler.

    The only thing that Maelstrom achieves that it makes it easier to also incorperate other abilities into this system, such as Earthquake or make it easier to design other talents such as Totem Mastery around it.

    And when looking at the abilities mentioned above, yeah, it succeeded by adding more depth to the spec rather than "dumbing it down".

    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    And, if you spammed just 1 button- that shows how bad you played it or never raided HC (before mythic even existed), did CMs, participated in 2.5k+++ mmr pvp.
    I'm getting sick and tired of people trying to use their experience as an argument and i usually see it just as challenge for a dickmeasuring contest, so i'll just comply.
    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...moore/kralljin
    There's my armory link, if you're "better", then congratz to be one of those few people.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-10-05 at 01:54 PM.

  19. #119
    First of all, I am sorry for quoting your whole comment in 1 section. Just cba to do multiple quotes via phone. But I'll do my best to reply on all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    As far as AoE is concerned, not really, because that segment that you quoted was in particular about AoE.
    A lot of people even there flat out refused to use Earthquake, because it required like 5 targets who had to stand in the area of effect for the entire seconds to be just a marginal dps gain over pure CL spam.

    That aside, a pure one button spam doesn't really fly anymore unless said button totally overtuned.
    Because Blizzard added a bunch of burst AoE buttons post MoP, stuff like Comet Storm, Eye Beam, Summon Frostwyrm, etc. didn't exist back then.



    Saying that you prefer the MoP version and then talking about how it dumbs things down is just downright hilarious.

    Please tell me, where was the depth of MoP Elemental?
    Which version of Elemental is more complex to play? The current FotM one with Icefury or the MoP where the only "choice" as far as playstyle was between Unleashed Fury, Elemental Blast and Primal Elementalist?



    So your problem is more the overall class design and not Elemental in particular?
    I've already highlighted this above, Elemental was not fundamentally changed.

    Maelstrom in its essence is Lightning Shield charges, the core Single Target rotation of Elemental hasn't really changed since Cata.

    You apply Flame shock.
    Keep Lava Burst on CD.
    Hit ES whenever you hit the cap.
    Use LB as filler.

    The only thing that Maelstrom achieves that it makes it easier to also incorperate other abilities into this system, such as Earthquake or make it easier to design other talents such as Totem Mastery around it.

    And when looking at the abilities mentioned above, yeah, it succeeded by adding more depth to the spec rather than "dumbing it down".



    I'm getting sick and tired of people trying to use their experience as an argument and i usually see it just as challenge for a dickmeasuring contest, so i'll just comply.
    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...moore/kralljin
    There's my armory link, if you're "better", then congratz to be one of those few people.
    Speaking about AOE elemental rotation- I would like to see us multi-doting (semi-legion).... Like 3-6 targets = flame shock is MUST on all + LB procs + CL.
    I'd also make EQ channel time (just as we had it when it was introduced back in 3.3.5). Shamans CHANNELING EQ on 8+++ targets did 50% of raid dmg. But that's all they could do in that time (with aoe flame totem pre-cast, ofc)

    When I said "depth" about MOP elemental, I meant mainly about PVP. We had tasks we could fulfill, but also, before that, not like every single ffing class had aoe stun/cc/knock/fear/name whatever you want.
    Good elemental could mean the difference between win and lose in RBG for example. Like, proper placed Thunderstorm, root, aoe heal, even as tank killer if smart enough (ascendence > burst). Yes, it wasn't that COMPLEX class, I can agree with that. But it was FUNNIER. And it didn't feel that "clumsy" as it feels today.

    Shaman today isn't complex AT ALL.... It's only if you REALLY want to pull the BEST out of your class- you have to follow your trink/item buffs (which, was pretty much required since..... YEARS now...) e.g. - line icefury with trink proc, totem (if in pvp) and other things.... Rotation is not complex at all. And, seeing your exp, achi points, etc, etc... I believe you will agree with me.

    And also, 1 more thing- saying that you compare maelstrom with LS charges= not 100% truth in my opinion. LS was important for Earth shock only. While Maelstrom is both for ES and EQ.

    And yeah... I still do see it as "dumbing classes down"= in my eyes, maelstrom/insanity/holy power/etc, etc, etc.... is nothing more than Combo Points for rogues/ferals.

    Ah and yeah... I forgot 1 thing... I am better than you. I play Alliance :P (hehehehe small joke )
    Last edited by Palapop; 2019-10-05 at 02:17 PM. Reason: add last line

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    Speaking about AOE elemental rotation- I would like to see us multi-doting (semi-legion).... Like 3-6 targets = flame shock is MUST on all + LB procs + CL.
    You didn't really multi dot FS during AoE in Legion.
    That's pretty much a BfA thing due to how strong Lvb is and the Master of Elements / Earthquake interaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    When I said "depth" about MOP elemental
    Now we're suddenly talking about PvP?

    By the way, Elemental was pretty broken in mid / late MoP in PvP because of how strong Lvb was in PvP and the EotE mechanic.
    Elemental could just randomnly kill people out of nowhere because you got 2-3 lucky Lava surge procs+Overload+EotE.

    Quite the coincidence that you just picked era, isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    Like, proper placed Thunderstorm
    The only class that has gained a counter to knockbacks are DK's in form Death's advance, the rest is utterly unchanged.
    You can still kill enough people in EotS / AB with TS, they just need to be dumb enough to be in such a position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    And, seeing your exp, achi points, etc, etc... I believe you will agree with me.
    No dice, because i don't.

    Matter of fact, i believe you just randomnly jump over a variety of topics now in order to move the goalpost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    Ah and yeah... I forgot 1 thing... I am better than you. I play Alliance :P (hehehehe small joke )
    Spoken like a true foreskin, you pull back when things get serious.

    Make your points without insulting other users.
    Last edited by Ragnarocket; 2019-10-06 at 09:22 PM.

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