since holinka admited they should return to class identity : i strongly want to see the totems are back and see shaman a "joker" class again...
since holinka admited they should return to class identity : i strongly want to see the totems are back and see shaman a "joker" class again...
I would like to c blizzard move away from every spec being builder spender. Enh/ele don’t feel good as builder spender specs.
Enh is weird now, storm strike spam doesn’t feel good. I don’t even notice wf procs now. It’s not anything like the enh I fell in love with back in the day.
Even while yea "specs make classes 1/3 of what they are" usually, its more of a slight playstyle change for most classes but with shamans and druids its totally another class. While its hard for druids to use each specs spells to use with one another, its easier to keep "shaman sense" within each spec. I agree your post totally. Elemental and resto should fancy some wf here and there and enhancement should fancy lightning bolts here and there.
Though not with procs, but on "oh sht" moments. Procs mean keepin it in rotation or something and usually making it not worth. While it shouldnt be needed for elemental, their melee should deal some good damage and not totally feel like wet paper. Enhancement should be able to use ranged attacks on times it cant get into melee range. Not with full utility but something fine.
I think a lot could be done with class as a whole to make it awesome. Most classes are defined with what they should do (warrior priest mage warlock etc), but some classes like shaman gives blizzard total freedom to be awesome. Specially with this environment where gear has adaptive stats and balance is much easier to manage unlike previous decade.
Agreed totally. On top of that i dont think enhancement's lightning bolt should be any weaker than elemental's. If you wanna stand at your place and cast a spell it should hit as much as elemental. But since your talents wont give you any procs or whatever they might be, it wont give you an edge like it does with elemental talents so you will never prefer it over your melee attacks. But nevertheless it should hit just as much as an elemental shaman's lightning bolt. Keep lava burst as a talent i wouldnt care but core shaman abilities should be available and be worth to be used even if stuationally.
I wouldn't want to go back to be a 2H spec. Enh has been DW for too long to just go back to it.
I think going back to class fantasy will probably mean that we WILL get our shocks back instead of weapon enchants being rotational, which I really can't wait!
I'd like if they went back to something closer to what we were from BC -> WoD. I only started to like enh less with the legion rework. Specially since at first it was really feast or famine without WF at 20% proc chance. Plus, I loved how enh was bascially an ele shaman hitting you in your face with weapons and lightning bolts / shocks. I also loved how enh didn't depend on a ressource. We have had the whole shamanistic rage every minute to keep mana up, but we never felt like we were out of juice really. MW charges opened up possibilities. Will I throw a healing rain? Will I throw a bigger heal just for myself? A Lightning bolt? Or maybe a chain lightning? Maybe it will be a hex too, who knows!
WoD rotation had become TOO fast and too much like piano, but the spec working since BC so I don't see why they couldn't go back to that while re-adding the fun parts of the new spec. SB procs ARE fun IMO... but being rage based is not... although we unsurprisingly reached exactly what I reported in the legion beta, maelstrom will always feel too limiting or we will just not care about it making it superficial. We worried about it during the first months of legion... then we got fixed and we stopped caring about it. Some said we NEED to have a ressources or we are hell to balance. Yet, ret pallies pretty much have a similar gameplay to old enh. They use abilities that generates charges and use it for templar's verdict (LB) or divine storm (CL). It more different than that but the principle is the same. The biggest difference was that old enh could use LB/CL (and others) without having reached the 5 charges.
I disagree.
Heavily.
Shaman in Warcraft 3 were presented as your standard caster unit, with the regular Shaman being a squishy ranged support caster and the Farseer summoning minions to tank for him and having good AoE capabilities.
Shaman were basically the orcish counterpart to the Human Archmage / Sorceress.
The idea of the Shaman having an actual melee option is pretty much a WoW thing, perhaps inspired by Thrall, but Thrall is far from a regular Shaman.
The fact that he wore Plate armor and used a 2h Weapon is a decent hint, the characterization itself touched upon the point that Thrall was more dressed like a Warrior rather than shaman before Cata.
If i select a Melee spec, i actually want to play a Melee spec.
Ever since Maelstrom weapon, i ditched Enhancement, because this idea of mixing Melee abilities and spells led to this weird playstyle of you smashing at a target, then suddenly your character putting its weapon away to throw in some random cast.
Enhancement should be about delivering Elemental empowered weapon strikes, that's what the name of the spec implies, enhancing your strikes with elemental power.
I am fine with Enhancement obviously using utility based tools similiar to Elemental / Resto, but i do not want to move back to the point where Enhancement and Elemental basically have the same ability toolkit, except for Lava burst, Stormstrike and Lava lash, it was boring - on both ends, because as Elemental i actually want powerful abilities that set myself apart from the other two specs, not just having mine deal more damage.
(which is kinda the point of having a specialization, right?)
Those specs simply use their powers differently, that should be reflected in their toolkit.
Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-07-04 at 09:47 PM.
I loved shaman when it was initially released. Sticked to it until end of Wrath. I liked that it still had that support factor to it. I was dealing good dps, putting useful totems and throwing an occasional heal here and there. Then they really stripped this class and I have never managed to return to it despite many tries.
Bring back the support that shamans brought, even the flat buff totems. It was just FUN.
S.H.
Some thoughts for the future of the Shaman class.
All specs
- Stone Bulwark Totem: Creates an absorb shield on the caster similar to the Azerite trait Resounding Protection. The shield will regenerate as long as the totem exists.
- Ascendance becomes baseline for all specs.
Elemental
- Earthen Rage becomes baseline.
- Elemental Blast triggers all 3 stat increases, but at lower values.
- Storm Elemental becomes its own spell. All 3 Elemental summons share different CDs, so they can be used together.
- The PvP talent Elemental Attunement becomes baseline.
- The Azerite trait Igneous Potential becomes baseline.
- The Azerite trait Overwhelming Power replaces the current talent Unlimited Power.
Enhancement
- Searing Assault and Hailstorm become baseline.
- Feral Lunge also becomes baseline. If Feral Spirits is active when used, they will attack the same target.
- Doom Vortex and Wind Strike, traits from the Doomhammer artifact, become baseline.
- Earth Shield works differently for Enhancement. It now grants a small amount of damage reduction (no more than 10%).
- The Azerite traits Thunderous Blast and Heed My Call becomes baseline.
Restoration
- Unleash Life and Wellspring become baseline.
- The PvP talent Ancestral Gift becomes baseline.
- The Azerite traits Overflowing Shores and Concentrated Mending become baseline.
- The Scepter of Tides artifact traits Empowered Droplets and Tidal Pools become baseline.
The primary reason being that Blizzard decided to give him a warrior ability toolkit in AV for [reasons], which was his first appearance in WoW, in Warcraft 3, he was shown as regular Farseer.
In AV, he doesn't even use a single shaman related ability.
That aside, Drek'thar sits in a wheelchair since Cata.
If you look at the Vanilla / TBC talent tree, the talent tree very much focuses around enhancing your Melee abilities / enhancing totems.
Actually throwing in Lightning bolt / CL didn't appear until Wotlk with Maelstrom weapon.
but the Warcraft 3 Farseer doesn't even have a single healing ability...?
The crucial difference is that DK doesn't have a spec that focuses on ranged attacks.
To make an important distinction here, i don't mind Enhance having a ranged ability, it should just make sense and have a unique appeal to it.
For example, take Thrall throwing a Lightning charged Hammer at Mannoroth in the Warcraft 3 cinematic, that's actually pretty cool, it makes it very much an Enhancement ability as he is employing a Weapon rather than pure spells, but still gives it a very Shaman like feeling.
The problem for me just arises once Enhancement literally uses the same spells as Elemental, it ruins the distinction between two specs that should have a better separation based on the fact that one is a spellcaster and the other a Melee fighter.
Sure, but Shaman doesn't.
I've said above that i don't mind Enhance having the same utility toolkit as Ele.
You just seem to advocate how it was in Wotlk-WoD, with Enhance and Elemental basically used a very similiar toolkit, which i felt made Elemental feel a lot worse.
Because it felt like Elemental wasn't a true specialization, but rather just "an improvement", it didn't have any special stuff on its own.
This problem loops for me back to Enhancement as well, if i switch from a pure spellcaster to a melee fighter and end up having almost the same attacks...it's just weird.
The problem is where the fantasy based on a character clashes with gameplay in an MMO, some things simply don't translate well into gameplay.
For example, originally the idea of Druid was to be an actual shapeshifter, like using every animal form, they ditched that even before Beta because it didn't work out properly, since day 1 Druid has stuck with each spec focusing on a specific form (more or less).
The issue at hand is how this also translates into actual gameplay, how do you actually want to give Elemental "more melee abilities"? Simply throw stuff like Primal Strike back into your spellbook and call it a day?
I mean, if you decided to focus on your spellcasting abilities, you want to stand at range, if you give Elemental abilities like Stormstrike, you basically make them a Melee caster, they need to stand in Melee range to take advantage of their full toolkit, but do mostly just spellcasting, which is kinda weird.
And dual wields swords (at least until like WoD).
Before even Shaman could dual wield.
At a certain point you have to realize that something may be wrong with the depiction of a character, but you'll use it anyway because it support your PoV.
That already exists in the form of Ascendance.
Which is totally fine, because it's clearly different from Elemental.
The issue here is that one should be sane about make a case by case decision, not make broad sweeping decisions.
I mean people wouldn't also say in order to live the "class fantasy" aspect, Balance should occassionally apply bleeds to people, because feral does that too, right?
We are literally just guessing how much this actually entails.
Ion basically gave a single example: Alter time and right off the bat said that something like Warrior Stances may be difficult to implement (which is a not too subtle hint that Warrior stances may not be happening).
Spinning this much further can very much lead to unrealistic expectations.
Imagine if a Fire Mage every once in a while would deliver an utterly powerful Frostbolt, whereas the Frost Mage Frostbolt is just a regular filler that doesn't do a lot of damage.
It doesn't make sense, you specialize in a given aspect, so you should be the one delivers the big hits with the abilities you augment, not another spec due to some misguided idea of "class fantasy".
The point of specializations is to specialize yourself and set yourself apart from the other specs.
Imagine if Blizzard decides to throw Mortal Strike and Bloodthirst out of the window because "it favors spec identity or class identity", that would be just plain stupid.
Matter of fact is, Blizzard talked about adding removed abilities, not adding entirely new abilities.
Yeah, but they're most likely not doing it.
Partially because Elemental already has a PBAoE in form of Earthquake.
The reality is that there is not enough room for this.
If you just dump abilities onto a spec / class, you end up with spells that aren't there to be actually used, but just for "flavor".
If people want that, that's fine, but i'd rather have some objective purpose behind spells.
This is exactly those types that i do not want.
If you want a powerful spells, play the spec that favors spellcasting.
Yet these points cannot be united with each other in terms of balance, if the spells are too weak, they are barely worth hitting, if they are too strong, you create this weird situation where the another spec occasionally dishes out bigger hits with an ability that actually falls into another specs territory.
And i could say that Blizzard finally returned to a proper fantasy of Enhancement by focusing on close range abilities and weapon enchants, rather than this detour started in Wotlk.
Whereas the gameplay is decent is another debate, but the current version of Enhancement hits closer to home for me than this Mele(e)mental that it was from Wotlk and onwards.
Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-07-05 at 08:47 PM.
I dont think a fire mage's frostbolt should hit any weaker than a frost mage's frostbolt.
The reason a fire mage should choose firebolt over frostbolt should be about procs and quirks it provides. "If you crit with fire spells x happens" fine, use firebolt. But if you cast 1 frostbolt it should hit as hard as frostmage's frostbolt.
Whom will this hurt? I think you are taking spec identity a little too far like ion said. You're basicly saying "enhancement's lightning bolt shouldnt hit as hard elemental becouse it will make elemental look bad." It's not true. Dont give enhancement lasso or lava burst. Dont give it earthquake. But if an ability is on my action (like lightning bolt) bar, it should be worth to be used. Is this really asking too much?
That's just something that was never true at any point in WoW's history.
Like, take a look at the Vanilla-Wotlk Fire Tree, you had talents that straight up increased the damage / potency of Fireball / Fire spells.
This is the point of a specialization, You like casting fire spells? Then choose the talent / spec that boosts the damage of your fire spells.
Same as Enhancement had talent that simply increased your Melee damage, these talents were
The primary issue was that Blizzard gave a lot of specs, spec specific abilities for the sake of giving them one.
Warriors are a good example, Heroic Strike was your basic rage dump, the first ability on your bar, yet Blizzard removed it and gave every spec a specific rage dump.
Similiar thing are DK's, originally, all of them had a basic concept of applying diseases and then using spec specific strikes, with Unholy having a greater emphasis on diseases.
The entire concept of diseases was basically removed from Frost and Blood, because they wanted to make diseases primarily an Unholy thing.
Another example, all Warlock specs had access to your basic dots, Curse of Agony, Immolate & Corruption, Blizzard made Corruption and Curse of Agony a Affliction only thing, whereas Immolate became Destro only.
The crucial difference here is that all those are similiar in their concept, all three warlock specs are a ranged caster, it doesn't hurt to have some ability overlap between Demo and Affliction, similiarly, all three DK specs are essentially unholy knights that focus on necromantic / scourge related abilities.
Enhancement and Elemental however are different, because one of them is a Melee fighter and the other a spellcaster, a big ability overlap makes far less sense.
It's like having Feral and Balance and big ability overlap.
Take Vanilla / TBC as example, Elemental, Enhancement and Resto still had very much a Shaman identity despite not having a big overlap in terms of abilities, because the concept of Shaman being a support oriented class still held true and that was their common ground.
Simply giving specs a similiar toolkit will not necessarily restore class identity, it will just water down specs, the first and most important aspect of class identity is actually to figure out what the actual identity of a class is in terms of gameplay, rather than throwing spells / ideas around for the sake of flavor.
Go ahead, post the other shaman that exclusively use Warrior abilities and dual wield swords.
The point is that class fantasy isn't necessarily tied to abilites, but can also be tied to a certain theme within a class.
I don't, i made it perfectly clear where to draw the line.
On the one hand, you accuse me of making broad statements, on the other, you basically say of what i accused you in the first place.
I've said it above, those abilities need to have a distinction from the spells that Elemental uses.
Let me rephrase it: If half of my abilities are literally the same spells as the spellcasting spec, i could just play the spellcasting spec.
Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-07-06 at 11:56 AM.
To me it seems like you two are arguing about where to stand on the spectrum. Ion said they realized they were too much on the spec side. Maybe they will not go back to too much on class side so kralljin wont be sad but javelinjoe will be. But maybe they go too much even javelinjoe and i will be sad.
So dont waste your time nitpicking each other's sentences guys (im such a negotiator lol).
To me, "enhancement" as in both spec and name is too shallow to be enriched. Sure core of it is melee damage. But i think name should be changed and a breath must come to the spec with more freedom to get away from spells like flametongue and frostbrand. They have been actively used since tbc-wotlk. The way they are going is totally not fun to play. I think it should be scrapped.
Weapon buff should be like stormstrike. You deal damage with your weapon imbued by lightning! Done. Not +300-400 damage with flametongue...
Wf business is more shady i dont think blizzard wants strong burst for any spec. So i guess old wf will never come back.
(imo ofc) Spec should be a melee spec which can kite melee classes a little to try to heal when overpowered. And deal some damage while doing it. Dont give us gap closers like feral lounge (total unimaginative band aid). Instead make us not so gimped while kited. Even simply shocks by themselves would nearly be enough. Every melee has gap closer. This would make us somewhat unique.
Just go play an older expansion because it sounds exactly what you want.
Hi Sephurik
Well, obviously. Other games doesnt have such a class as "shaman". Our only referance comes from previous expensions. Which made us fell in love with enhancement. Newcoming expension made me feel like enhancement going to a direction i'm less familiar with. So i'm trying to explain what made me love in previous expensions in hope to return to a class/spec philosophy that i enjoy.
It's not like this has become a total something else. But certain small touches change the gameplay and feel of the class completely. I wish them "touched" in another direction
For me it's not only about racking the damage meters (which is ofc also important). I know other classes feel it too. I have lots of alts and i can say most of em has the same problem but its on another level for enhancement. Maybe it feels like that to me cus i main it but still those alts are not less than 10 years old as well.
Last edited by Oturanboa; 2019-07-09 at 08:51 PM.
My personal suggestions for Shaman revamp
All
• Ascendance should be baseline for all specs.
Elemental
• Lightning Bolt should be instant-cast when moving. For balance, make it do less damage than a stationary cast.
• Elemental Blast should be baseline, and grant all 3 stat increases. For balance, make those increases less than potent than they currently are.
• Storm Elemental should be a separate spell from Fire Elemental. In addition, all 3 Elementals should have separate cooldown times.
• Icefury should be a baseline spell.
• Earthen Rage should be a baseline passive.
Enhancement
• Earth Shield should function similar to how Marrowrend’s Bone Shield effect does for Blood Death Knights.
• Feral Lunge should be baseline, so that Enhancement has a gap-closing skill like many other melee specs.
• Searing Assault and Hailstorm should be baseline passive effects for Flametongue and Frostbrand, respectively.
• Boulderfist should be baked into Rockbiter, but with a reduced damage increase for the sake of balance.
• As Earth Elemental is the only such spell available to Enhancement, it should have a reduced cooldown.
Restoration
• Ancestral Gift, a current PvP talent, should be a baseline passive.
• Unleash Life should be a baseline spell.
• Deluge should be a baseline passive.
I know it will never happen, but I'd love to see a Shaman tank spec that actually takes advantage of the Shield that the class can equip.
Like others here, I would also give Enhancement a 2H option. I don't have much issue with how Shaman plays. I actually quite enjoyed the Enhancement revamp in Legion.
My vision on enhancement changes.
Talent tree
15 Boulderfist Hot Hand Windsong
30 Landslide Totem Mastery Forceful WInds
45 Spirit Wolf Wind Rush Totem Feral Lunge
60 Sundering Fury of Air Crushing Storm
75 Ancestral Wolves Frostfire Wolves Storm Wolves
90 Nature’s Guardian Healing Grace Etherial Form
100 Earthen Spike Elemental Weapon Ascendance
Windsong - Increases your Haste by X% for next Y seconds after dealing a critical strike.
Landslide - Rockbiter increases the damage of your next Stormstrike by 100%.
Crushing Storm - Stormstrike increase the damage your target takes from your next Crash Lightning by X%, stacking up to Y times.
Fury of Air - Creates a vortex of wind 8 yards around you, dealing Frost damage every 1 sec to enemies caught in the storm, and slowing them by 30% for 3 sec.
Ascendance - Transform into an Storm Ascendant for 15 sec, reducing the cooldown by 100% and cost of Stormstrike by 66%, and transforming your auto attack and Stormstrike into Lightning attacks(stormblast) which bypass armor(still physical) and have a 30 yd range.
Elemental Weapon- Instant, 1 min cd. Causes your auto attacks and Stormstrike casts to deal elemental damage for 10 sec.
Storm Wolves - Reduces the cooldown of Feral Spirit by 30 sec and causes your Feral Spirits to be imbued with Lightning. (causes you to deal an additional Nature damage with each attack and your stormbringer empowered Stormstrikes to have increased critical chance)
Elemental Wolves- Reduces the cooldown of Feral Spirit by 30 sec and causes your Feral Spirits to be imbued with Fire and Frost. (Increases Flametongue and Frostbrand damage (on attack part))
Ancestral Wolves- Reduces the cooldown of Feral Spirit by 30 sec and causes your Feral Spirits to be imbued with Ancestors. (Increases Stormstrike and Windfury damage)
Healing Grace - Your Healing Surge no longer consumes Maelstrom.
Frostbrand - Chills your target, dealing Frost damage and applying Frostbrand to them, reducing their movement speed by 50% for 3 sec. Enhances your weapons for 16 sec, causing each attack to deal up to X Fire damage and apply Frostbrand.
Frostbrand - 50% movement speed slow.
Flametongue - Scorches your target, dealing Fire damage and applying Searing Assault, and enhances your weapons with fire for 16 sec, causing each attack to deal up to X Fire damage and apply Searing Assault.
Searing Assault - 6 seconds DOT
Crash lightning - Electrocutes all enemies around the target, dealing Nature damage and enhances your weapons for 10 sec, causing Stormstrike and Lava Lash to cast a Chain Lightning on the target. Each target hit by Crash Lightning increases the damage of your next Stormstrike by 5%.
Etherial Form - moved pvp talent (niche on demand soaking ability)
All of this was in mind with 150 Maelstrom cap and legion costs alongside with stormbringer reducing Stormstrike cost by 50%
Last edited by Arnfrid; 2019-07-14 at 07:37 AM.