9.0 Shaman redesign suggestions

[oland138]

In the recent Ion 8.2 video he talked about the future of class design. In this thread I would like us to give our own, personal opinions, on where the class and specs should move in 9.0.

For me:

Shaman as a Class:
Core fantasy:
Totems. A whole lot of totems.
Today we only use totems as a cooldown, but I would much prefer having totems that give buffs to players like Strength/Agi/Mana regen/WF totems.
I think Grounding Totem, Tremor Totem and Poison Cleansing Totem should be baseline for the class, at least. Don’t put them as “PvP talents”…
I would also like to see the return of very situational totems that rarely are useful.

Earth Shock, Frost Shock and Flame Shock.
Possibly merge Wind Shear with Earth Shock again?

Signature spells:
Heroism/Bloodlust.
Purge.
Too many classes has similar spells now. It used to be “our” things. I would like to go back to that.

Pruning:
No more Stun/CC. To me, Shaman should never have gotten their Hex nor their stun totem. What made Shamans unique in Vanilla/TBC was no CC at all. This meant we had other, more fun, strengths.

Enhancement:
Core fantasy:
Strong burst windows.

Signature spells:
Back to a focus on Windfury.
Back to being a 2H spec.
Strong hitting Stormstrike.

Pruning:
Possibly removing Maelstorm.
No more procs reseting the cooldown of Stormstrike. It is supposed to be this strong hitting spell that takes a while to get.

Elemental:
Core fantasy:
Strong burst windows.

Signature spells:
Lava Burst
Chain Lightning

Pruning:
Removing Maelstorm. Back to using Mana. The Maelstorm gathering abilities into these unsatisfying Earthquake/Earthshock is not fun.
No more procs reseting the cooldown of Lava Burst. It is supposed to be this strong hitting spell that takes a while to get.

Restoration:
Core fantasy:
Strong hard casted raid AoE healing.

Signature spells:
Chain Heal
Earth Shield - Should certainly not be a lvl 30 talent - It has been core to the spec since TBC..

Pruning:
Instant heals
Healing rain

I'd love to see 2H enhance back. I am playing enhance in classic. I think stormbringer would be cool for 2h.

I kinda miss TBC enhancement. It was cool having the option to DW, 2h or 1h/shield depending on the situation. I'd love to see these options again, and not just for shaman.

[Daffan]

2h nty

dw is better

[Grimbold21]

Ditch maelstrom

If I wanted to play an energy based class, I wouldn't choose shaman

[Kralljin]

Ditch maelstrom

No thanks.

People can complain over Maelstrom all they want, but it's better than nothing.
It didn't alter the Rotation / Priority fundamentally, but added some depth to spells like Fire Elemental and makes talents such as Icefury interesting in the first place.

It also improved AoE, where you previously just spammed CL or waited for EQ to go off CD, it at least added some variety due to talents like Stormkeeper.

[Grimbold21]

No thanks.

People can complain over Maelstrom all they want, but it's better than nothing.
It didn't alter the Rotation / Priority fundamentally, but added some depth to spells like Fire Elemental and makes talents such as Icefury interesting in the first place.

It also improved AoE, where you previously just spammed CL or waited for EQ to go off CD, it at least added some variety due to talents like Stormkeeper.

I don't play Elemental, but I'm glad you chose not to engage with spamming Stormstrike.

[Palapop]

No thanks.

People can complain over Maelstrom all they want, but it's better than nothing.
It didn't alter the Rotation / Priority fundamentally, but added some depth to spells like Fire Elemental and makes talents such as Icefury interesting in the first place.

It also improved AoE, where you previously just spammed CL or waited for EQ to go off CD, it at least added some variety due to talents like Stormkeeper.

lololol....

maelstrom is the 1 who brought boredom into class.
"at least added some variety due to talents like Stormkeeper." And that's all you came up with? 2 clicks in 60 seconds? lol... you do know that we used to have instant cast, 45 sec, elemental mastery before?
it was taken away from us and replaced with that ultra-shit stormkeeper (which was artifact ability... which, also, got nerfed lol)

[Kralljin]

Maelstrom has nothing to do with anything you just said, and those things you like could easily live in a world without it.

Of course it does.

Take Fire Elemental for example, this spell has been an utter mess for over a decade now.

TBC? 20 Minute CD that doesn't do jackshit.
Wotlk? Can't use it if you're Elemental because you gotta drop Totem of Wrath.
Cata? It's finally useful, if the AI wouldn't be broken and the FE actually attack the boss.
MoP / WoD / Legion? Searing totem on a cooldown.
BfA? Actually has a point, drop that thing if you have FS running on 2-3 Targets and it actually *feels* like you're using some CD.

Seriously, dropping FE on Encounters like Orgozoa where you have 3-4 FS running, then see your Maelstrom constantly just fill by itself while also your Lava shock stacks go through the roof is tons of fun.
Wouldn't work without Maelstrom.

Or take Icefury, a massive charm of this talent is to juggle with the Maelstrom cap as both Icefury and Frost shock generate MS, you obviously also want to buff Frost shock with Master of the Elements.
But Lava Burst also generates MS and you obviously also want to buff Earth shock with Master of the Elements.

Without Maelstorm, it would pretty much just be "yeah, hit that once it's off cd".

Sorry, but as far as Elemental is concerned, your statement is just false.

I don't play Elemental, but I'm glad you chose not to engage with spamming Stormstrike.

The fact that i've used Icefury and Fire Elemental as example, should be a hint that i'm primarily coming from an Elemental PoV.

If you think Enhancement can do without, go ahead, but as Elemental i prefer Maelstrom over having an utterly simple priority list.

lololol....

maelstrom is the 1 who brought boredom into class.

The core function of Maelstrom is the same as Lightning shield.

You hit Lvb.
You hit Lb.
Then you hit ES once you reached a certain cap.

Sounds familiar somehow?

As said, it didn't alter things fundamentally.
If you think Maelstrom made Elemental boring, then you just dislike it by association and not because of how Maelstrom works.

"at least added some variety due to talents like Stormkeeper." And that's all you came up with? 2 clicks in 60 seconds? lol... you do know that we used to have instant cast, 45 sec, elemental mastery before?
it was taken away from us and replaced with that ultra-shit stormkeeper (which was artifact ability... which, also, got nerfed lol)

Do you prefer the WoD Version? Or the MoP (Yeah, spamming one button)?
I'm not saying it's the epitome of class design, but when looking at the previous alternatives, yes i absolutely prefer Maelstrom.

[Palapop]

Of course it does.
The core function of Maelstrom is the same as Lightning shield.

You hit Lvb.
You hit Lb.
Then you hit ES once you reached a certain cap.

Sounds familiar somehow?

As said, it didn't alter things fundamentally.
If you think Maelstrom made Elemental boring, then you just dislike it by association and not because of how Maelstrom works.



Do you prefer the WoD Version? Or the MoP (Yeah, spamming one button)?
I'm not saying it's the epitome of class design, but when looking at the previous alternatives, yes i absolutely prefer Maelstrom.

I actually prefer MOP version, yeah.
And, if you spammed just 1 button- that shows how bad you played it or never raided HC (before mythic even existed), did CMs, participated in 2.5k+++ mmr pvp.
Shamans were WAY MORE than just spamming lb.

The problem with Maelstrom/focus/insanity... etc, etc.... is that it DUMBS CLASS DOWN! It FORCES you to design/play gainer>gainer>spender rotation. It literally forces you to. And, with MP, you could have 973427 rotations/play styles/w/e.... 1 might bring the best result, yeah, that's true. But it's 1 among MANY.

We had ferals and rogues with combo points... why we had to make every single class a combo gainer/spender class? (rets, shamans, sp... etc, etc, etc) - just, instead of combo points, we got annoying alternatives.

[Kralljin]

Shamans were WAY MORE than just spamming lb.

As far as AoE is concerned, not really, because that segment that you quoted was in particular about AoE.
A lot of people even there flat out refused to use Earthquake, because it required like 5 targets who had to stand in the area of effect for the entire seconds to be just a marginal dps gain over pure CL spam.

That aside, a pure one button spam doesn't really fly anymore unless said button totally overtuned.
Because Blizzard added a bunch of burst AoE buttons post MoP, stuff like Comet Storm, Eye Beam, Summon Frostwyrm, etc. didn't exist back then.

The problem with Maelstrom/focus/insanity... etc, etc.... is that it DUMBS CLASS DOWN!

Saying that you prefer the MoP version and then talking about how it dumbs things down is just downright hilarious.

Please tell me, where was the depth of MoP Elemental?
Which version of Elemental is more complex to play? The current FotM one with Icefury or the MoP where the only "choice" as far as playstyle was between Unleashed Fury, Elemental Blast and Primal Elementalist?

It FORCES you to design/play gainer>gainer>spender rotation. It literally forces you to. And, with MP, you could have 973427 rotations/play styles/w/e.... 1 might bring the best result, yeah, that's true. But it's 1 among MANY.

So your problem is more the overall class design and not Elemental in particular?
I've already highlighted this above, Elemental was not fundamentally changed.

Maelstrom in its essence is Lightning Shield charges, the core Single Target rotation of Elemental hasn't really changed since Cata.

You apply Flame shock.
Keep Lava Burst on CD.
Hit ES whenever you hit the cap.
Use LB as filler.

The only thing that Maelstrom achieves that it makes it easier to also incorperate other abilities into this system, such as Earthquake or make it easier to design other talents such as Totem Mastery around it.

And when looking at the abilities mentioned above, yeah, it succeeded by adding more depth to the spec rather than "dumbing it down".

And, if you spammed just 1 button- that shows how bad you played it or never raided HC (before mythic even existed), did CMs, participated in 2.5k+++ mmr pvp.

I'm getting sick and tired of people trying to use their experience as an argument and i usually see it just as challenge for a dickmeasuring contest, so i'll just comply.
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...moore/kralljin
There's my armory link, if you're "better", then congratz to be one of those few people.

[Palapop]

First of all, I am sorry for quoting your whole comment in 1 section. Just cba to do multiple quotes via phone. But I'll do my best to reply on all.

As far as AoE is concerned, not really, because that segment that you quoted was in particular about AoE.
A lot of people even there flat out refused to use Earthquake, because it required like 5 targets who had to stand in the area of effect for the entire seconds to be just a marginal dps gain over pure CL spam.

That aside, a pure one button spam doesn't really fly anymore unless said button totally overtuned.
Because Blizzard added a bunch of burst AoE buttons post MoP, stuff like Comet Storm, Eye Beam, Summon Frostwyrm, etc. didn't exist back then.



Saying that you prefer the MoP version and then talking about how it dumbs things down is just downright hilarious.

Please tell me, where was the depth of MoP Elemental?
Which version of Elemental is more complex to play? The current FotM one with Icefury or the MoP where the only "choice" as far as playstyle was between Unleashed Fury, Elemental Blast and Primal Elementalist?



So your problem is more the overall class design and not Elemental in particular?
I've already highlighted this above, Elemental was not fundamentally changed.

Maelstrom in its essence is Lightning Shield charges, the core Single Target rotation of Elemental hasn't really changed since Cata.

You apply Flame shock.
Keep Lava Burst on CD.
Hit ES whenever you hit the cap.
Use LB as filler.

The only thing that Maelstrom achieves that it makes it easier to also incorperate other abilities into this system, such as Earthquake or make it easier to design other talents such as Totem Mastery around it.

And when looking at the abilities mentioned above, yeah, it succeeded by adding more depth to the spec rather than "dumbing it down".



I'm getting sick and tired of people trying to use their experience as an argument and i usually see it just as challenge for a dickmeasuring contest, so i'll just comply.
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...moore/kralljin
There's my armory link, if you're "better", then congratz to be one of those few people.

Speaking about AOE elemental rotation- I would like to see us multi-doting (semi-legion).... Like 3-6 targets = flame shock is MUST on all + LB procs + CL.
I'd also make EQ channel time (just as we had it when it was introduced back in 3.3.5). Shamans CHANNELING EQ on 8+++ targets did 50% of raid dmg. But that's all they could do in that time (with aoe flame totem pre-cast, ofc)

When I said "depth" about MOP elemental, I meant mainly about PVP. We had tasks we could fulfill, but also, before that, not like every single ffing class had aoe stun/cc/knock/fear/name whatever you want.
Good elemental could mean the difference between win and lose in RBG for example. Like, proper placed Thunderstorm, root, aoe heal, even as tank killer if smart enough (ascendence > burst). Yes, it wasn't that COMPLEX class, I can agree with that. But it was FUNNIER. And it didn't feel that "clumsy" as it feels today.

Shaman today isn't complex AT ALL.... It's only if you REALLY want to pull the BEST out of your class- you have to follow your trink/item buffs (which, was pretty much required since..... YEARS now...) e.g. - line icefury with trink proc, totem (if in pvp) and other things.... Rotation is not complex at all. And, seeing your exp, achi points, etc, etc... I believe you will agree with me.

And also, 1 more thing- saying that you compare maelstrom with LS charges= not 100% truth in my opinion. LS was important for Earth shock only. While Maelstrom is both for ES and EQ.

And yeah... I still do see it as "dumbing classes down"= in my eyes, maelstrom/insanity/holy power/etc, etc, etc.... is nothing more than Combo Points for rogues/ferals.

Ah and yeah... I forgot 1 thing... I am better than you. I play Alliance :P (hehehehe small joke )

[Kralljin]

Speaking about AOE elemental rotation- I would like to see us multi-doting (semi-legion).... Like 3-6 targets = flame shock is MUST on all + LB procs + CL.

You didn't really multi dot FS during AoE in Legion.
That's pretty much a BfA thing due to how strong Lvb is and the Master of Elements / Earthquake interaction.

When I said "depth" about MOP elemental

Now we're suddenly talking about PvP?

By the way, Elemental was pretty broken in mid / late MoP in PvP because of how strong Lvb was in PvP and the EotE mechanic.
Elemental could just randomnly kill people out of nowhere because you got 2-3 lucky Lava surge procs+Overload+EotE.

Quite the coincidence that you just picked era, isn't it?

Like, proper placed Thunderstorm

The only class that has gained a counter to knockbacks are DK's in form Death's advance, the rest is utterly unchanged.
You can still kill enough people in EotS / AB with TS, they just need to be dumb enough to be in such a position.

And, seeing your exp, achi points, etc, etc... I believe you will agree with me.

No dice, because i don't.

Matter of fact, i believe you just randomnly jump over a variety of topics now in order to move the goalpost.

Ah and yeah... I forgot 1 thing... I am better than you. I play Alliance :P (hehehehe small joke )

Spoken like a true foreskin, you pull back when things get serious.

Make your points without insulting other users.

[Palapop]

You didn't really multi dot FS during AoE in Legion.
That's pretty much a BfA thing due to how strong Lvb is and the Master of Elements / Earthquake interaction.



Now we're suddenly talking about PvP?

By the way, Elemental was pretty broken in mid / late MoP in PvP because of how strong Lvb was in PvP and the EotE mechanic.
Elemental could just randomnly kill people out of nowhere because you got 2-3 lucky Lava surge procs+Overload+EotE.

Quite the coincidence that you just picked era, isn't it?



The only class that has gained a counter to knockbacks are DK's in form Death's advance, the rest is utterly unchanged.
You can still kill enough people in EotS / AB with TS, they just need to be dumb enough to be in such a position.



No dice, because i don't.

Matter of fact, i believe you just randomnly jump over a variety of topics now in order to move the goalpost.



Spoken like a true foreskin, you pull back when things get serious.

In Legion was 10x easier to multidot 3-5-6 targets since FS had no CD on it. At least it's what I did.... To have SOME fun with my class (since I was pretty much unlucky with legendary drops... so, they didn't "enhance" my gameplay at all (beauties of rng, eh))

We were talking about PVE only? Never noticed that "9.0 shaman redesign suggestions" were tied strictly to pvp.

You call that broken? I think it was pretty much good thing. Like- you play vs ELE? and your healer doesn't care to dispel your FS? that's punishable then. + we had ~5% haste buff when FS gets dispelled too.

I'm not saying about COUNTER to knockbacks. But who else has it now. Still can't understand why hunters and priests have knock backs (which knock even further more than Thunderstorm AND have lower cd, but ok....)

I'm just expressing my opinion here.
"Spoken like a true foreskin"..... no, I didn't pull back anywhere. I was just trying to be polite here and have some good time discussing with someone, even if he/they have different opinion to mine. Instead, I just ran into highly toxic person. Sadly.... You disrespect me- I end conversation there.

Have a lovely evening.

[Kralljin]

In Legion was 10x easier to multidot 3-5-6 targets since FS had no CD on it.

Easier doesn't mean it's more effective.

We were talking about PVE only? Never noticed that "9.0 shaman redesign suggestions" were tied strictly to pvp.

Considering that this discussion originally broke out over Maelstrom itself, not the performance of Elemental in PvP, that is quite the jump, yes.

You call that broken? I think it was pretty much good thing.

From the Ele PoV? Sure, overall, nope.
It not like the that it was necessary to multi dot FS, it just increased the odds of it happening.

Secondly, if you happen to play a comp where FS isn't the only thing that requires dispel, the healer will sooner or later fall behind.
After all, FS had a 5sec cd and dispel 8sec, so you were going to win sooner or later anyway as long as you kept FS on cd.

"Spoken like a true foreskin"..... no, I didn't pull back anywhere. I was just trying to be polite here and have some good time discussing with someone, even if he/they have different opinion to mine.

I think you've lost the right for any polite discussion the second you come around and tried to tell people, simply based on their opinion, that they're a bad player.

And, if you spammed just 1 button- that shows how bad you played it

[dunkl]

I've always loved the idea of each spec having a signature element

[Grimbold21]

While I appreciate the debate you two are having, Kralljin, you decide to take it to the elemental side.

This can be fixed paladin style: let elemental keep MS and remove it for Enhancement.

[cocomen2]

1) Make enhancement shaman 2h weapon user.(personal loot no more point in having one-handers that no one wants)

2) Combine enhancement shaman spec with elemental shaman spec (anyway enhancement shaman Mastery: Enhanced Elements -Increases your chance to trigger Stormbringer and Windfury by 0.64%, and increases all Fire, Frost, and Nature damage you deal by 16.0%.) into melee-medium range fighter that use Fire,Wind,Earth,Water. AKA Avatar.

3) Remove Mail type of armor from a game, Shaman Plate wearing class (like Paladins),Hunter Leather wearing class (anyway they do not use MANA anymore, just agility based class)

Funny shit its when other classes that have lower armor than MAIL : Leather,Cloth - have much better Survivability , Shaman dying in 4 sec while Rogue has tons of save talents and skills , and even shield that Shaman is able to wield does nothing to save said shamans ass. And you ask can Shaman have more Defensive CoolDowns , answer to question = "No , man they have good armor .........." LeL what ? if its not Plate you dead in sec without DEF CDs.

Holy trinity in roles : DD,Tank,Healer.
Holy trinity in armor : Plate,Leather,Cloth.

(what a point in having 4 type? armor : Best,Medium,Low (while Mail is Medicore?)
Just transfer all mail items in game to Plate category.


It would be much easier to balance classes if each class would have only 2 specs : 1st DD, 2nd Utility (healer or Tank).
Classes that have more than 1 DD spec just waste of time to balance them around anyway 1 out of 3 specs would be TOP chart MEGA op, even if its doing 2% more dps than other 2 specs.

Example :
Warrior DD/Tank; (Magni/Garrosh inspired)
Rogue DD/Tank; Combat Rogue Tank
Hunter DD/Tank; Survival spec sounds better as melee Tank with spear.
Mage DD/Healer; Mage DD just Combine Frost/Fire/Arcane into one spec,while Healer spec using Time-magic.
Warlock DD/Healer; Sacrifice spec healer that gives his own hp(or HP of his demons) to teammates.

And by doing that we can cut left alone specs to make them standalone classes :

Blademaster DD/Tank; (Cut Arms Warrior off from Warrior class, to make him Leather wearing fighter with Invis+Bladestorm)
Priest of the Moon DD/Healer (Cut Balance/Restoration Druids from Druid class, to make Tyrande themed class)

[Banality]

I just want Unleash Doom back! That's the passive I saw some Troll Shaman using on the broken shore and I just looked over at my friend like "THAT'S SO BADASS WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME THEY COULD DO THAT." and I've loved Enhancement ever since. I just miss those wicked Lightning spikes...

[Oturanboa]

1) Make enhancement shaman 2h weapon user.(personal loot no more point in having one-handers that no one wants)

2) Combine enhancement shaman spec with elemental shaman spec (anyway enhancement shaman Mastery: Enhanced Elements -Increases your chance to trigger Stormbringer and Windfury by 0.64%, and increases all Fire, Frost, and Nature damage you deal by 16.0%.) into melee-medium range fighter that use Fire,Wind,Earth,Water. AKA Avatar.

3) Remove Mail type of armor from a game, Shaman Plate wearing class (like Paladins),Hunter Leather wearing class (anyway they do not use MANA anymore, just agility based class)

Funny shit its when other classes that have lower armor than MAIL : Leather,Cloth - have much better Survivability , Shaman dying in 4 sec while Rogue has tons of save talents and skills , and even shield that Shaman is able to wield does nothing to save said shamans ass. And you ask can Shaman have more Defensive CoolDowns , answer to question = "No , man they have good armor .........." LeL what ? if its not Plate you dead in sec without DEF CDs.

Holy trinity in roles : DD,Tank,Healer.
Holy trinity in armor : Plate,Leather,Cloth.

(what a point in having 4 type? armor : Best,Medium,Low (while Mail is Medicore?)
Just transfer all mail items in game to Plate category.

I've been playing enhancement for a long time. I feel like it's an abusive relationship which i can't leave now. It would be better if they just deleted it, so i can move on. Existance of elemental steals so much from enhancement and obviously vice versa. Combining them sounds like a better solution.

Removing mail armor also sounds good but i think shaman fits better into leather armor.

However having rogue tanks or warlock healers... doesn't ring a bell for me. Sounds like ruthless homogenization without fantasy backing. But ofc having 3 dps talent trees is just a waste of time and some of them should be merged together. If developers don't want to spend time on their least favorite specs, they just shouldn't. Go right up and just freaking delete some specs and stop players waiting hopeful that their long invested spec will be made good.

Current way is really heartbreaking for players who use least used specs (i dont know why we can't leave it, maybe some psychological problem with us).

I don't blame developers. It's probably impossible to balance so much specs into this vast game. They should grow balls and remove specs they dont like.

[kosajk]

@Palapop & Kralljin
i wil not go into discusion with You us cause im enh and oh boy i would so love to go back to mop shaman :P

2 years ago after getting pissed with how much they slowed, dumbed & clunkied rotation, i have tried some other clases and fuck me everything just feal the same, builder builder spender, just with different visuals
so we have like 12 classes each with couple specs and fucking everything feal the same in game that was been most build up,complex (yet without some crazy learning curve like eve for instance) and fun to play of all mmos for 10+ years,

fuck me if its right direction beside maybe making things easier for developers (which still havent put so desired balance in game on so many levels) :P

[lummiuster]

Should go back to classic/TBC design without extreme mana issues. Shamans should deal less dps than other pure class but they would bring that windfury totem and elemental totem that will significantly make the group stronger.
Enhance should be able to decide between DW and 2H.
Elemental should have the choice between being a lightning bolt riffle and an elemental caster (frost/fire/nature).
Chain lightning should be his signature spell. This should deal huge damage but with a 5-10sec cooldown. On top of making huge damage it should have an effect such as reducing enemy attack speed or movement speed or chance to hit or idk.

Imo the game can only get better if Blizzard accepts to ignore balancing and start working on class to make them cool rather than equal to others. And community should stop crying if their class that brings lots of utility deal less damage. Or simply ban DPS meter addons.