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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by wombats23 View Post
    the post you quoted doesn't even mention warlock?
    The post I quoted quoted a post talking about warlocks.

  2. #22
    Shadow stopped being good at the end of WotLK and became niche from then on.

    Tiers which were cleared on the first available week on mythic arent real raids, debate me.

    People cry about multi dotters because it is a niche thing, only 3 specs can do it.

    People shouldnt be angry that 1 spec gets to do 10-15% more than normal in niche situations, they should be happy that the raid boss is easier because of it.

    Casuals do not deserve an opinion EVER.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Spicymemer View Post
    Shadow stopped being good at the end of WotLK and became niche from then on.

    Tiers which were cleared on the first available week on mythic arent real raids, debate me.

    People cry about multi dotters because it is a niche thing, only 3 specs can do it.

    People shouldnt be angry that 1 spec gets to do 10-15% more than normal in niche situations, they should be happy that the raid boss is easier because of it.

    Casuals do not deserve an opinion EVER.
    STM never existed....

    Working out the math and figuring out composition and strategy beforehand makes the raid not exist!!!!!!

    ???????????????????????

    ??????????????????????????????

    ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????

  4. #24
    I find the whole warlocks have been OP for too long conversation hilarious myself.

    Warlocks truly have been in a good spot for a long time but most people here are comparing warlocks to boomkin, shadow priests, etc.
    You are basically comparing a class to a spec. If you want to compare warlocks then do it down to their individual spec and I think you will find that it is mostly affliction and not destruction nor demonology that has been in a good spot for a long time.

  5. #25
    Op wants to know which class to reroll to.

    Only to find out that they still suck.
    Oceanic spriest, thanks blizz for giving us aus servers. 9/9 mythic.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Motso View Post
    Some classes will do better on some fights, some will do worse. It has and will always be that way.
    There are no niche fights anymore. You have no longer the old ~10% delta between DPS specs, you have right now 25% for ST and 50-75% for AoE raid fights.

    The range favoritism in encounter design and the fact that most overperformers are also range specs is a great combination for casual raiding. (:>) Hardcore raiders don't really care, since they are forced to play multiple classes to exploit anything in encounter design. The enconter/class balance is visible in every difficulty and does not target mythic only mechanics like in the past, you force casual raiders with 1 main class and no time for multiclassing to either raid as a dead weight or just quit raiding. The option to "just reroll" is not there if you raid casualy or play the game outside of raiding too.

    Imagine raiding casualy with a typical melee heavy setup or god forbid without warlocks in the last few tiers. Even fights in Normal mode are cancer and clearing heroic in the first 2 weeks of the content gets frustrating pretty fast if every single boss mechanic is catered around range/warlock ussage.
    Last edited by Ange; 2019-06-24 at 09:26 AM.
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  7. #27
    Herald of the Titans Nagrash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post
    Imagine people playing what they want to play in the new raid.

    Novel concept, isnt it?
    You gotta play whats best!! Even if you don't enjoy it because numbers.. and stuff..

  8. #28
    Is that really a problem if you don't aim for the world ( maybe server ) first?

    Let us say that the new mythic raid, which drops 445 ilvl, will be cleared by 3 guilds with an average ilvl of 440.

    Then the rest of the guilds will have to face a content with these specific features:

    1) Higher raid ilvl ( because the more you fail, the more time passes, and so the more ilvl you will have ).
    2) Future patches ( which means "boss getting nerfed". Which leads to an easier content ).

    So, given the fact that only the main world guilds will have the possibility ( in terms of time ) to enjoy the real true fight, why should a difference in dps be a problem for other players?

    A class which bring 37k dps instead of 40k, in a fight which needs an average 35k dps, should really be a problem?

  9. #29
    from what ive seen most of the fights are ST, except 2-3

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagrash View Post
    You gotta play whats best!! Even if you don't enjoy it because numbers.. and stuff..
    you dont have to rly, unless you are pushing for hall of fame

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatto View Post
    Why do more damage and have better utility if you can do less and have worse?
    Gee what a conundrum.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    When was the last time warlock was bad? Gotta be before Mists of Pandaria, warcraftlogs doesn't go back that far.
    I didn't say warlock, did I? I said Shadow priest. Because for whatever reason you included that in your "this class has been good for ages"-spiel. It's factually wrong, so I got a kick out of correcting you. Is that an issue?

    (Also, warlocks were bad in Highmaul specifically, if you want a tier that I remember - nobody actually wanted them on any of the fights, you just brought one for healthstones if you even bothered to do that).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Indeed, Shadow has been hugely hit and miss for a long time, but Locks admittedly have been very powerful in raids for... a long, long time. In Mists it was Demo with Unerring Vision that had to be nerfed or Aff dominating in SoO alongside Destro being good, in WoD Demo was OP for BRF and then Aff rose in HFC, in Legion Aff was great for literally the entire expansion after EN, with Demo being amazing in some fights if not played much because piloting the spec felt like shit. And now in BfA Aff has again been very powerful with Destro and Demo standing strong also, to say nothing of G'huun practically mandating the class and both BDA and Crucible hugely favoring ranged classes, especially multidotters.

    I can't remember any other class getting such a consistently high performance in raids, personally. Others like Mages, Warriors, Hunters or Rogues might have had higher highs, but nobody has been as consistent as Warlocks.

    Sure. But that's why I said it was laughable that he included shadow in the same tier. Mages/Warlocks/Rogues have generally been in a class of their own, with hunters being more "hit and miss" but still decently consistent due to other utility than just raw damage.
    Also, I like how you skipped past Highmaul, where Warlock was actually genuinely just "bad" and not brought for anything unless you specifically needed a caster dps (looking at you, whatever boss came right before imperator) or more ranged. It's their "dark spot" in the timeline you've put out.
    Doesn't mean they haven't been consistently strong, but there has been lows.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by apustus View Post
    Gee what a conundrum.
    Challenge is a thing no more.

  13. #33
    I'd be happy if mythic raid encounters were a little bit more favorable to bringing melee over ranged, and this is a boomy talking here. It's to the point where there are mechanics that literally are designed to keep your from having too much melee or risk setting back your raid from a DPS/healing perspective. When I've watched the bench this expansion, it's basically been all melee as ranged are pretty much a shoe-in if there's a choice between the two.

    All in all, using DPS rankings is kind of silly when comparing classes for encounters because quite often the important metric, providing damage where it needs to be when it needs to be there, is very hard to measure. So you're not on top of the damage meter, so what? As long as you focus your damage where it needs to be and do the mechanics you're supposed to do, you will kill the mythic raid bosses. Too often people's focus on their screen is Overall Damage Done on their meters, when that's generally the least informative and productive thing you can do.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post

    Sure. But that's why I said it was laughable that he included shadow in the same tier. Mages/Warlocks/Rogues have generally been in a class of their own, with hunters being more "hit and miss" but still decently consistent due to other utility than just raw damage.
    Also, I like how you skipped past Highmaul, where Warlock was actually genuinely just "bad" and not brought for anything unless you specifically needed a caster dps (looking at you, whatever boss came right before imperator) or more ranged. It's their "dark spot" in the timeline you've put out.
    Doesn't mean they haven't been consistently strong, but there has been lows.
    A first raid that lasted four (I think) months out of years and years of being an auto-include in any self-respecting composition- as a Fury favoring DPS Warrior I wish I had half that level of consistency. My spec goes from incredibly bad to top tier to terrible again from raid to raid.

    It's true that Locks are a class and not a spec as well, but most of the time Affliction is the dominant raid spec anyway. Which I'm fine with in the era of M+ because Affliction struggles a lot more there. Yet I still think Blizzard should take a look at multidotting, or at least revise their current stance that stacking cleave = bad bad bad but multidotting is totes the best thing ever.

  15. #35
    The issue is always first with encounter design and the fact that most tiers usually have a small number of encounters that are strongly dependent on strategy so if those encounters are countered by the same niche, then that niche will be supreme. Of course it certainly is an issue that spread cleave is such a universal niche that covers for so many other types. But imo ultimately the issue is not just numbers, it's the feeling that everyone else gets when they are useless.

  16. #36
    People forget about the current Ultimate OP spec: Elemantal

    It’s in/on the top for every fight style :b

  17. #37
    Warlocks spend half the time dogshit, and the other half overpowered.

    Look at legion

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by JustaWarlock View Post
    Warlocks spend half the time dogshit, and the other half overpowered.

    Look at legion
    You mean warlocks were average in EN (not rock bottom like DKs or ele shamans) and then from Nighthold on they were OP and auto-include in every raid setup? And since then they're on the roll, haven't dropped out of the winning streak.

    Warlock for range / DH for melee is your best bet you won't be benchwarming in a raid. Not many changes to them in the patch either.

    P.S. Not even mentioning the amount of cheese that required warlock gateways in the last few years. I think that dates back to MOP when gateway was added to the game?

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    You mean warlocks were average in EN (not rock bottom like DKs or ele shamans) and then from Nighthold on they were OP and auto-include in every raid setup? And since then they're on the roll, haven't dropped out of the winning streak.

    Warlock for range / DH for melee is your best bet you won't be benchwarming in a raid. Not many changes to them in the patch either.

    P.S. Not even mentioning the amount of cheese that required warlock gateways in the last few years. I think that dates back to MOP when gateway was added to the game?
    No, Warlocks were just plain broken at the start of legion. Absolutely terrible and required major fixing (and the hijacking of a few developer q&a).

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by JustaWarlock View Post
    No, Warlocks were just plain broken at the start of legion. Absolutely terrible and required major fixing (and the hijacking of a few developer q&a).
    They weren't terrible. Frost dk is what was terrible (oh look, it's terrible again). Unholy was also not much better unless you had leggo bracers (spoiler alert: majority didn't, it's early legion).

    People just cried soul effigy is "too clunky" to play with. Plus destro was okay. Not good but not shit. Ele shaman, arcane mage and few other specs were in worse state.

    But yeah, warlocks cried endless tears and whined in every thread, until Blizzard caved in. It was literally a comedy, looked like - you dare to discuss something warlock unrelated? Immediately horde of warlocks pops in "did you forget about warlocks? warlock fixes when?"

    They also immediately nerfed s2m priests, fire mages, and whatever else was actually good. Somehow they don't put as much effort into fixing let's say enhancement or ret. But warlocks of all kinds and boomkins are getting rework after rework, basically since Cata.

    I used to think mage community was the most vocal, but now that mages are basically the worst of the casters I don't see anywhere close to the uproar warlocks made in legion. And since then warlocks are enjoying 3rd year of being top tier. They didn't get the treatment of guardian druid that got completely castrated after legion.

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