Which Spec is Extremely Rewarding and Interesting when played Skilfully?

[deenman]

The truth is no class can rly be played skillfully anymore, there's not enough depth or abillities, you have to wait for classic if you want to show your skillfull plays in PvP.

classic??skillfull?lul

[Ange]

Without any depth in skill-mechanics or ressource-management and with the typical "tanky" style of DH-PvP (use plain pve-rotation with defense passives) I am not sure if skillfull is the right word.

If a noob can perform well with a class, it means it has no depth and if thats interesting for you, great.

Watch a rogue/mage whatever with counter mechanics or a ressource-management class like unholy DK played by a noob, they get instagibbed very quick.

If you like the easy DH class and you are at your own skillcap, I suggest you look no further, since every other class or spec is just a downhill ride from that point. But since you ask for other players opinion, you seem to get that this cant be that rewarding and the truth is, it isnt.

[Big Thanks]

Without any depth in skill-mechanics or ressource-management and with the typical "tanky" style of DH-PvP (use plain pve-rotation with defense passives) I am not sure if skillfull is the right word.

If a noob can perform well with a class, it means it has no depth and if thats interesting for you, great.

Watch a rogue/mage whatever with counter mechanics or a ressource-management class like unholy DK played by a noob, they get instagibbed very quick.

If you like the easy DH class and you are at your own skillcap, I suggest you look no further, since every other class or spec is just a downhill ride from that point. But since you ask for other players opinion, you seem to get that this cant be that rewarding and the truth is, it isnt.

Im going to be honest with you...all i want is "WOW" factor on a possible PvP video.
Stuff that is entertaining to watch.
Showcase of skill montage or something like that.

For example today, i recorded me in a 2v1, while i was fighting one guy...i used Meta Leap immunity frames on a Chaos Bolt.
It did zero damage.

Then i used Eye of Leotheras on a fire mage and used Rain From Above.
He decided to cast a Greater Pyro.
Once i reached the ground i used my immunity frames in Shadowmeld to avoid all the damage of the incoming Pyro already going in my direction.

Stuff like this.
Stuff that is entertaining to watch

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Demon Hunter skill ? seriously...

lol i was just thinking this

i can only imagine the perceived skill cap for this

Stuff like this.
Stuff that is entertaining to watch

You should have written out your thread title + OP post to say that then

[Ange]

Stuff like this.
Stuff that is entertaining to watch

Things like AMS/Cloak a slow traveling cast? Thats basic 1500 rated stuff. People even expect you to pre-Feint INSTANT-CAST and stealing usefull things with Dark Simulacrum PROACTIVE, so you have to understand your opponents play.

Thats normal gameplay, sure its entertaining but just as much as pressing a DPS ability to do... DPS?

As DH there is no ressource pooling, no reading of your opponents, no positioning required. The pressure comes from sheer uptime, since there are no significant DPS moves you could do or prepare for and you counter with passives or with normal pve-rotation. A tanky, mobile melee, with simple DPS mechanics - I think you expect to much from this class.

Go to warcraftmovies, vimeo, youtube and check out the popular DH 1vX videos. There are many TANK SPEC videos with more views. At least thats a small hint what most people think about the DH "WOW" factor.

[Big Thanks]

Things like AMS/Cloak a slow traveling cast? Thats basic 1500 rated stuff. People even expect you to pre-Feint INSTANT-CAST and stealing usefull things with Dark Simulacrum PROACTIVE, so you have to understand your opponents play.

Thats normal gameplay, sure its entertaining but just as much as pressing a DPS ability to do... DPS?

As DH there is no ressource pooling, no reading of your opponents, no positioning required. The pressure comes from sheer uptime, since there are no significant DPS moves you could do or prepare for and you counter with passives or with normal pve-rotation. A tanky, mobile melee, with simple DPS mechanics - I think you expect to much from this class.

Go to warcraftmovies, vimeo, youtube and check out the popular DH 1vX videos. There are many TANK SPEC videos with more views. At least thats a small hint what most people think about the DH "WOW" factor.

Interesting...
So there isnt any class out there that...is fun to watch?
Since in your opinion anyone can do immunity frames

[Ange]

Interesting...
So there isnt any class out there that...is fun to watch?
Since in your opinion anyone can do immunity frames

Thats not what I said, maybe you should just stop with the GW terminology since its not true for WoW.

Nothing is hidden in WoW, your choice was to play the easiest class with the lowest skillcap. Deal with it.

[Irian]

Literally any caster in the game is more difficult to play. Things like positioning, cast times, and juking are all concepts that are either totally irrelevant or extremely minor to melee or hunters.

When I was still involved in the PvP scene I saw many of my friends who were gladiator and rival casters go on to make a melee or hunter alt and do as well or better than their mains. The inverse I've seen basically never.

[Big Thanks]

Literally any caster in the game is more difficult to play. Things like positioning, cast times, and juking are all concepts that are either totally irrelevant or extremely minor to melee or hunters.

When I was still involved in the PvP scene I saw many of my friends who were gladiator and rival casters go on to make a melee or hunter alt and do as well or better than their mains. The inverse I've seen basically never.

Maybe i should play a caster then
Im not a big fan of caster but i agree 100% with you.

[Trend]

There's more to being a great 3v3 player than mastering your class.

And that addresses what I said how?

[docterfreeze]

And that addresses what I said how?

The person you replied to was only talking about classes, you went on a rant about skill in PvP.

[Kaver]

To use your refined way of argument against you again;

Nope.

Implying my Fury warr is even remotely complicated compared to Survival in a pvp environment is laughable, to give one example.

I said MOST other specs.

BM < Survival = Fury

[Trend]

The person you replied to was only talking about classes, you went on a rant about skill in PvP.

You one of those people who just like to argue then? Pretty dumb. And to say I "went on a rant" = you not being able to have an honest conversation.

The person to whom I responded tried to make the argument that there is no skill in playing your character in PvP. I asked why do the same people consistently win. You pop in with "There's more to being a great 3v3 player than mastering your class." And my question still remains ... so what? That does not address anything I said, nor did I say anything about 3v3. It was a pretty poor assumption on your part that 3v3 was the sole context of what I was talking about.

Thanks for trying. Sorry it didn't work out for you.

[docterfreeze]

You one of those people who just like to argue then? Pretty dumb. And to say I "went on a rant" = you not being able to have an honest conversation.

The person to whom I responded tried to make the argument that there is no skill in playing your character in PvP. I asked why do the same people consistently win. You pop in with "There's more to being a great 3v3 player than mastering your class." And my question still remains ... so what? That does not address anything I said, nor did I say anything about 3v3. It was a pretty poor assumption on your part that 3v3 was the sole context of what I was talking about.

Thanks for trying. Sorry it didn't work out for you.

When you say

The truth is that any time the same people consistently win objective competitions.

It's pretty easy to assume you're talking about 3v3. It's the only recognized ladder, the only one that gives long term rewards, the only one with sponsored teams, the only one with regular tournaments, and the only mode played at blizzcon. You only get recognized as a player if you do well in 3v3. When you talk about the same players always staying at the top, I thought you meant the only ranked ladder people care about in the PvP world.

Onto outplays, it's objective that classes have gotten easier and outplay potential has hit rock bottom. When I think of an outplay I think of a mage using alter time right before a feral puts up a 5 CP rip, or a warlock baiting spell reflect with a chaos bolt, only to cancel it and remove the spell reflect with fel flame. So many outplays that you could do in past expansion are no longer possible. That's what has so many people frustrated with current PvP, and that's why they call it skill-less. Of course there are still skills that exist, just none of it has to do with mastering your class. Positioning, comps & countercomps experience, communication, awareness, and connections still separate the above average players from the blizzcon players.

[Trend]

When you say



It's pretty easy to assume you're talking about 3v3. It's the only recognized ladder, the only one that gives long term rewards, the only one with sponsored teams, the only one with regular tournaments, and the only mode played at blizzcon. You only get recognized as a player if you do well in 3v3. When you talk about the same players always staying at the top, I thought you meant the only ranked ladder people care about in the PvP world.

Onto outplays, it's objective that classes have gotten easier and outplay potential has hit rock bottom. When I think of an outplay I think of a mage using alter time right before a feral puts up a 5 CP rip, or a warlock baiting spell reflect with a chaos bolt, only to cancel it and remove the spell reflect with fel flame. So many outplays that you could do in past expansion are no longer possible. That's what has so many people frustrated with current PvP, and that's why they call it skill-less. Of course there are still skills that exist, just none of it has to do with mastering your class. Positioning, comps & countercomps experience, communication, awareness, and connections still separate the above average players from the blizzcon players.

A duel is an objective competition. It's not subjective because nobody is subjectively grading it like figure skating. It's objective because one person runs out of hit points before the other. An encounter in a BG is also objective in the same way. I can tell pretty easily if someone on the other team has skill or if they don't.

I think you saw the word "competition" and took it very literally and assumed arenas. You also pulled "long-term rewards" out of thin air as a requirement for what a competition is. I think what I am saying applies to arenas, but there are many PvP competitions within WoW. Any time you are PvPing it is a competition - the participants are competing to come out on top and there will be winners and losers in each of these exchanges.

But then we come back to the point I was originally making. Maybe I'm wrong and you are always on one of the top teams at AWS and have one of the top RBG teams in your region. But I doubt it. I don't think those are the people who say WoW PvP doesn't take any skill. I think the people saying WoW PvP doesn't take skill are the people who could never compete at those levels. I'm not trying to slam - I've had friends say the exact same thing: "I hate WoW because the PvP is so easy" and I'm like, uhhhh, why is your highest arena rating season after season 1800 then? Nobody has ever been able to explain to me why they are never at the top if it takes no skill.

Also, you list things that you say have nothing to do with mastering your class but most of the things you list are related directly to how well you play your character in my opinion. I think you are taking an extremely narrow view of what constitutes the definition of skill. For instance, when you say positioning and awareness are not aspects of skillful individual play .... I don't even know what to say because of course they are. A mage (for example) who hasn't understood positioning hasn't mastered his class at all, he is dog shit. Communication and connections (I assume latency?) are something else, but I think it would be clear that a lack of player skill wouldn't be made up for by really good communication and connections unless the other team is trash (assuming we're still talking arenas here), in which case it's an irrelevant example anyway.

[docterfreeze]

A duel is an objective competition. It's not subjective because nobody is subjectively grading it like figure skating. It's objective because one person runs out of hit points before the other. An encounter in a BG is also objective in the same way. I can tell pretty easily if someone on the other team has skill or if they don't.

I think you saw the word "competition" and took it very literally and assumed arenas. You also pulled "long-term rewards" out of thin air as a requirement for what a competition is. I think what I am saying applies to arenas, but there are many PvP competitions within WoW. Any time you are PvPing it is a competition - the participants are competing to come out on top and there will be winners and losers in each of these exchanges.

You're right I thought you meant a literal competition.

But then we come back to the point I was originally making. Maybe I'm wrong and you are always on one of the top teams at AWS and have one of the top RBG teams in your region. But I doubt it. I don't think those are the people who say WoW PvP doesn't take any skill. I think the people saying WoW PvP doesn't take skill are the people who could never compete at those levels. I'm not trying to slam - I've had friends say the exact same thing: "I hate WoW because the PvP is so easy" and I'm like, uhhhh, why is your highest arena rating season after season 1800 then? Nobody has ever been able to explain to me why they are never at the top if it takes no skill.

You can take it from the vocal r1/blizzcon streamers, they've said in multiple streams & podcasts that classes lack the depth, abilities, and skill expression they had in past expansions.

https://clips.twitch.tv/TemperedQuai...MPEnergyCherry
https://clips.twitch.tv/BumblingConc...oxPeoplesChamp

Also, you list things that you say have nothing to do with mastering your class but most of the things you list are related directly to how well you play your character in my opinion. I think you are taking an extremely narrow view of what constitutes the definition of skill. For instance, when you say positioning and awareness are not aspects of skillful individual play .... I don't even know what to say because of course they are. A mage (for example) who hasn't understood positioning hasn't mastered his class at all, he is dog shit. Communication and connections (I assume latency?) are something else, but I think it would be clear that a lack of player skill wouldn't be made up for by really good communication and connections unless the other team is trash (assuming we're still talking arenas here), in which case it's an irrelevant example anyway.

No I meant those things I listed DO take skill, they're separate skills that every great PvP player must master. And by connections I meant finding good partners to play with. Self advertisement and doing anything you can to avoid gambling in LFG. Your class is another separate skill that is by far the easiest to master currently. I want that to change. I consider class mastery to be perfecting all the things that are possible with your class. Optimal DPS, optimal burst, optimal defensive and offensive play, CD management for example.

[Philomene]

Those haven't existed since WoD.

It's okay, thread can be closed

[Gigantique]

I said MOST other specs.

BM < Survival = Fury

Adding DH, Ret, Arms, WW on top of the «less complex than Surv» pile from the specs I’ve played in BfA, and being told that UH is fairly ez mode too, without having played it myself. Suddenly your narrative starts to crumble a bit, but you do you!

[melzas]

The truth is no class can rly be played skillfully anymore, there's not enough depth or abillities, you have to wait for classic if you want to show your skillfull plays in PvP.

Wow.

The rose-tinted nostalgia glasses are strong with this one.

Classic pvp skill driven? Please don't make me laugh.

[Super Kami Dende]

As much as People like to claim no classes have much of a skill anymore, the sheer fact that there is a large difference between DPS for the highest Percentile when in comparative Ilvl says otherwise.