2019-2020 NBA Thread

[StillMcfuu]

One of the biggest arguments against Lebron has always been this "last shot" or "clutch" thing. I think it's vastly overrated. I think the logic generally goes like this:

Jordan and Lebron have similar stats but Jordan won more.
Therefore, Jordan must be more clutch.

I tend to view it as:

Jordan and Lebron have similar stats but Jordan won more.
Therefore, Jordan was on better teams.

Specifically the "last shot" thing, there's almost no evidence that it plays an important role in the difference in success Lebron and Jordan had. Here's an excellent article on the subject from 2013:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...l-jordans-best

For Jordan's career, he was 9-18 on game tying or go ahead shots in the playoffs. That is awesome, yes, but through 2013, Lebron was 7-16 (I don't have more recent numbers). In other words, he was 1 shot from matching Jordan's FG%.

And if you look at Lebron's losses, they're not exactly littered with close series ending with Lebron missing a shot. The Warriors beat them handily 3 times because the Warriors were better. The Spurs in 2007 and 2014 were better. The argument basically comes down to the one Mavs series in 2011, where Lebron was too deferential to Wade and someone let even Bosh take more shots. But he was 26. I give him a pass for that. Jordan didn't win when he was 26 either.

You may argue that Jordan is slightly better than Lebron at making that last shot, but in practice it doesn't really matter and there's not enough data to say that. The series very rarely comes down to that last shot, and if it does, maybe Jordan makes it 5% more frequently than Lebron. It's an almost totally irrelevant difference. And don't get me started on the grand delusion of clutch Kobe, who was legitimately terrible in those situations.

And then there's the obvious thing: it's a lot more important to be able to get to game 7 of the finals and have the opportunity to take a game winning shot than it is to be good at making that shot if you get there.

I forgot who it was, and this was back in something like 2011, but a talking head presenter accused LeBron, ACCUSED, as if this were a negative, that he makes the right play too much in the clutch... instead of shooting it.

Same kind of accusations came up in 2016 when he deferred to Kyrie to take a shot, as if Kyrie wasn't a great shooter, a great clutch player, ohh and had Curry covering him who on his best day is an ok defender. They had just spoke about LeBron like he didn't average a triple double for the series and had the greatest defensive play of all time about 15 seconds prior.

[Scrod]

I forgot who it was, and this was back in something like 2011, but a talking head presenter accused LeBron, ACCUSED, as if this were a negative, that he makes the right play too much in the clutch... instead of shooting it.

Same kind of accusations came up in 2016 when he deferred to Kyrie to take a shot, as if Kyrie wasn't a great shooter, a great clutch player, ohh and had Curry covering him who on his best day is an ok defender. They had just spoke about LeBron like he didn't average a triple double for the series and had the greatest defensive play of all time about 15 seconds prior.

Lebron scored 7 of the last 10 points in that game. He had a game in 2007 where he scored the last 25 points in the Eastern Conference Finals. The problem is that the bar is the legend of Jordan, the guy who never missed a game winning shot.

[ProphetFlume]

I forgot who it was, and this was back in something like 2011, but a talking head presenter accused LeBron, ACCUSED, as if this were a negative, that he makes the right play too much in the clutch... instead of shooting it.

Same kind of accusations came up in 2016 when he deferred to Kyrie to take a shot, as if Kyrie wasn't a great shooter, a great clutch player, ohh and had Curry covering him who on his best day is an ok defender. They had just spoke about LeBron like he didn't average a triple double for the series and had the greatest defensive play of all time about 15 seconds prior.

Don't even have to go back that far. Game 5 of the finals when he kicked it out to green, who missed the easiest 3 you'll ever get, and the narrative was "it was the right play but..."

[StillMcfuu]

Don't even have to go back that far. Game 5 of the finals when he kicked it out to green, who missed the easiest 3 you'll ever get, and the narrative was "it was the right play but..."

Very true, not only that but Lakers picked up Green specifically for that situation. Play defense the whole game and make clutch shots. That's been Green's MO for his career.

- - - Updated - - -

Lebron scored 7 of the last 10 points in that game. He had a game in 2007 where he scored the last 25 points in the Eastern Conference Finals. The problem is that the bar is the legend of Jordan, the guy who never missed a game winning shot.

A lot of people do remember Jordan better than he was (if that's even possible). I do think Jordan makes his team better, he may be an asshole but guys elevate their games around him because they know he is going to get on their ass about it, he won't let them skate by. I wish I could watch more of him because I'm curious if he could have been the same type of passer LeBron is. But that's kind of where they separate, Jordan was a better defender, LeBron is definitely the better passer.
My issue is Jordan played in the Triangle for most of his career and he did a lot of off-ball work in the triangle, he was often on the receiving end of assists because of it. His assists went up with the Wizard but that was a bad team, also in the zone defense era where Jordan could pull 3 defenders and get wide open looks for team mates. I just don't think Jordan could ever match the sage like passing and IQ of LeBron.

[StillMcfuu]

@xskarma

New season starts in 2 months!

[xskarma]

@xskarma

New season starts in 2 months!

Officially official now. Dec 22nd.



Also, sad day today. Tommy Heinsohn, Hall of Fame basketball player, coach and broadcaster and someone who gave everything to the Celtics and the NBA for more than 60 years of his life, passed away at age 86 today. His home game broadcasting was the stuff of legend and he was delightfully honest and on the Celtics side (both good and bad). Shame to never hear him broadcast again. Glad we still have Mike Gorman though, our play by play guy, who is a legend in his own right on the broadcast side.

2020 has definitely sucked in who we lost if not just the rest of the bullshit.

[Blueobelisk]

Are they going back into a bubble?

[Scrod]

Hey, another team gave up on Russell Westbrook. I'm shocked. Not.

[xskarma]

Chris Paul to the Suns, for a boatload of players and picks. Suns might get seriously frisky now they have an actual PG.

[StillMcfuu]

Chris Paul to the Suns, for a boatload of players and picks. Suns might get seriously frisky now they have an actual PG.

They had Rubio, and he did a fair amount for them. From the deal I saw they lost Rubio and Oubre, which I thought the sf/pf position is where they really lacked. They still have space and room for moves so I don't think its over, although the Paul move feels like a win now move considering his age. I hope there is more to come from the Suns, Paul's value is getting more out of underperforming teams, I'd say Ayton is the only "underperformer" but thats not to say I think he is playing bad, just kind of think he could get a couple more per game reliably.

Talk has Harden going to Nets, and that just sounds like the stupidest idea ever. Hopefully the Nets are sitting back and saying the same thing in their offices..... Harden is an offensive cancer and the only good thing he did this post season was stop a potential game winner. If he had been playing defense the whole time OKC shouldn't have made it to game 7.

[xskarma]

It's Draft night and Celtics Draft twitter is collectively hoping now that Haliburton falls to them or that the Celtics trade up to get him. We shall see.

- - - Updated - - -

Haliburton to the Kings at 12, 2 picks before the Celtics.

Curious who the Celtics will go with now.

- - - Updated - - -

Celtics get Aaron Nesmith, absolutely FIRE 3 point shooter. Great pick up for them cause we desperately need shooting and scoring from the bench.

[Xjan]

Are they going back into a bubble?

This was my question - post season, sure that's feasible.

Regular season? That's going to be a challenge.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Well the Bucks did.... something with that trade.

But at least they drafted a shooter, they still need to find Giannis a proper 2 in free agency now though.

[StillMcfuu]

Well the Bucks did.... something with that trade.

But at least they drafted a shooter, they still need to find Giannis a proper 2 in free agency now though.

They got Jrue Holiday, thats huge for them as they have an actual playmaker now, and better perimeter defense. I don't think they really need a 2, slashing is what Giannis does best.

I hope Zo stops playing 3/4 of his games passive, he's the man now for ball handling, and the Pelicans need him to be aggressive on man def as Jrue was.

[Scrod]

Knicks had another “good pick if he can shoot” top 10 draft pick. Guy shot 40% from 3 but only 70% from the line so maybe he works out, idk. But it still seems like teams don’t prioritize shooting enough.

Other draft thought: espn has gotten really awful. It’s all crap recaps and Steven A yelling. Every once in a while there is a good article but most are behind the paywall. You can get far better content on other sites.

I tried to go to espn to check the draft while in progress and it had all these graphics everywhere and a countdown but I spent about a minute clicking around wondering WHERE IS THE LIST OF PICKS until I gave up and went to another site that just had them listed.

[Blueobelisk]

Klay Thompson has season ending Achilles tear. Achilles tear is the worst lol.

I think Nets are shaping up to be okay. It's a shame because I have the budget this year to pay for overpriced NY sporting events but I'm not going on a train or indoors in an arena...

[xskarma]

Gordon Hayward to Charlotte on a 120 million dollar 4 year deal. Holy crap.

That's the second year in a row that the Celtics lose someone to free agency in a way that makes me go "At that price? sure. BYE."

[Rennadrel]

Gordon Hayward to Charlotte on a 120 million dollar 4 year deal. Holy crap.

That's the second year in a row that the Celtics lose someone to free agency in a way that makes me go "At that price? sure. BYE."

Yeah, that price is way too much. I feel like we overpaid to keep Fred Van Vleet though, to be honest. But apparently the Knicks were offering him 25 million per year, and he signed for 21 so I'll take that. I still think Ibaka is gone though as a result and the Raptors are going to regress.

[ProphetFlume]

Lakers lost that guy I had no clue who he was because I only watched the playoffs and he opted out of the bubble. Big loss.

[Blueobelisk]

Wait so nba is starting on Dec 22...for a 72 game regular season? I don't think doing this outside of a bubble is going to work...even if they use private jets, there's no way all the players are going to stay COVID free.