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  1. #961
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    My disagreement is that I think this is egregious and not a light carry. I don't much care if they don't call the light carries, but this wasn't one.



    You're confusing two things here. You're allowed to take a few steps when you first collect the ball; that's completely different from carrying.

    What you're describing as a light carry I alluded to earlier:

    In the case of Giannis or Durant, they're not really gaining an advantage by doing what they're doing. They're still dribbling the proper amount, it's just the placement of the hand on the ball as it moves that's the problem; they're not literally supporting the weight of the ball with their hand as the take multiple steps down the court.

    That's what Harden did.
    Not to keep hogging up the thread with this--but I don't think I'm confused at what Giannis did. When you gather the ball--you can take 2 steps before shooting/passing/stopping, but one step when progressing the ball. Giannis took 2 (almost 3). And Giannis is supporting the ball under his hand twice during the dribble.

    "A player who gathers the ball while progressing may (a) take two steps in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball or (b) if he has not yet dribbled, one step prior to releasing the ball to start his dribble." NBA rulebook quote.

    We can also agree to disagree on the 'advantage' created. Harden wasn't being heavily contested at that moment to where he needed to create any advantage (which is extra odd--but I'm guessing he hesitated on thinking to pass). But I certainly agree the Giannis example isn't contested even as lightly as Harden was.
    Last edited by Espo; 2022-04-19 at 02:35 AM.

  2. #962
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    I wish I could disagree with you on this...

    - - - Updated - - -


    Here it is in real-time speed, for anyone who wants to decide for themselves whether this was a "light carry" or not.
    I'll be honest, I have way less of an issue with these "carries" than I do with another type that's way more prevalent. We called them carry overs, because it was basically doing a cross over, but instead of actually dribbling they carry the ball to the other side of their bodies.



    50 second point is perfect example, you see it all the time.

    Regardless, on to the Harden carry, yeah, in a strict sense it was a carry, but he gained no advantage from it. And I think the NBA being fast paced is a fine trade off vs having to pound the ball every other step and how slow and clumsy that made players. Just the nature of a full sprint in transition is going to lead to natural dribbles that have 5, 6, 7 steps in them. It would blow your mind that it isn't exactly against the rules that Harden could have went into his zero step back by the 3pt line and that would have been perfectly legal, even though he wouldn't have dribbled for 4 steps before that.
    I think the most egregious thing he did was hover his hand below the ball, probably indecisive on what he wanted to do. If he just went into his zero step at the 3 line, no one would see anything odd about what he did. It's that extra bounce that really highlighted that he was indecisive and if he pulled something like a hard change of direction while hanging the ball the way he did, he would likely get called.

  3. #963
    Mind if I roll need? xskarma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espo View Post
    but it's just not high up on my list of officiating problems
    Speaking of that: TAKE FOUL.

    I hope they get rid of that next off season. If some team is charging towards the other end then guess what, you should have played better positioning or not made a dumb turnover. The price you pay is a transition basket. You shouldn't be able to just grab the person with the ball and foul them when they try to set up a transition.

    For teams it will mean they give up a couple of points a game and won't change much. As VIEWERS though, we will get treated to more cool transition dunks and layups (and contests and blocks!).

    And honestly the Celtics are good at transition and love to get turnovers and easy baskets off of it, but we also employ Grant Williams who has like at least 1 Take Foul a game it feels like. I think for most teams it just evens out while being a net plus for the viewers.

    So, hopefully it will be something like 2 shots and the ball starting next season, instead of just side out.

  4. #964
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Oh, man, the Suns just lost to the Pels in Phoenix. Booker left the game with a hurt hamstring, so who knows if/when he's coming back in the playoffs. I don't know that I expected the Suns to sweep the Pels, but I didn't expect them to lose a home game.


    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    Speaking of that: TAKE FOUL.

    I hope they get rid of that next off season.
    Commentators around the league have been talking about it ad nauseam, so I would guess that the league is going to actually address it in the offseason.


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  5. #965
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Oh, man, the Suns just lost to the Pels in Phoenix. Booker left the game with a hurt hamstring, so who knows if/when he's coming back in the playoffs. I don't know that I expected the Suns to sweep the Pels, but I didn't expect them to lose a home game.
    HUUUUUGE consequences in the West with Booker's injury. Hamstrings linger and ALWAYS take more time and coming back from them early almost always reaggrevates them and makes for an even longer absence.

    Suns are in trouble if they can't figure it out without Booker for this series.

  6. #966
    I'm no fan of Kyrie's antics and personality off the floor, but fining him for responding to a hostile Celtics crowd seems like an uneven punishment. Short of fining the Celtics for their fans behavior... the message seems to be take the abuse and like it when you fine a player for *gasp* giving them the finger in a pretty casual manner.

    It's been 3 years Celtics fans, boo him, but let it go.

  7. #967
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    What a finish to the Sixers/Raptors game. I didn't think Embiid had a chance with that shot.

    Also happy to see the Nets fall to 0-2.


    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    I'm no fan of Kyrie's antics and personality off the floor, but fining him for responding to a hostile Celtics crowd seems like an uneven punishment. Short of fining the Celtics for their fans behavior... the message seems to be take the abuse and like it when you fine a player for *gasp* giving them the finger in a pretty casual manner.

    It's been 3 years Celtics fans, boo him, but let it go.
    If you flip off the crowd, no matter the perceived justification, you're gonna get fined.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

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  8. #968
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    What a finish to the Sixers/Raptors game. I didn't think Embiid had a chance with that shot.

    Also happy to see the Nets fall to 0-2.



    If you flip off the crowd, no matter the perceived justification, you're gonna get fined.
    I don't disagree, but the league does nothing to curb fan behavior and it's not like Kyrie is egregiously standing on the scoring table while flipping them off, he's just kind of giving them the bird. We see and hear much worse from just regular advertising and news, it's either a two sided punishment, or none at all, let it play out.

  9. #969
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    What a finish to the Sixers/Raptors game. I didn't think Embiid had a chance with that shot.
    After Doc Rivers pulled one of his patented "Joel figure it out or take a three if you can't" plays on their last possession before the end of regulation (when they had plenty of time to run something). Ugh.

    Tobias the sneaky winner there in freeing up Joel. But unbelievable that a 7 ft, 280 lb man can nail a turn and shoot 3 with .9 on the clock--and you feel really good about putting him in the spot to do it. It feels like every game he's bailing himself out with one of these; this one just being quite a bit more clutch.

    He won't win the MVP--but he's my MVP at least, hah.

  10. #970
    Quote Originally Posted by Espo View Post
    After Doc Rivers pulled one of his patented "Joel figure it out or take a three if you can't" plays on their last possession before the end of regulation (when they had plenty of time to run something). Ugh.

    Tobias the sneaky winner there in freeing up Joel. But unbelievable that a 7 ft, 280 lb man can nail a turn and shoot 3 with .9 on the clock--and you feel really good about putting him in the spot to do it. It feels like every game he's bailing himself out with one of these; this one just being quite a bit more clutch.

    He won't win the MVP--but he's my MVP at least, hah.
    It's either him or Jokic and honestly there is a strong argument either way. The biggest argument of his value to his team, yeah Nuggets without Jokic are below the Lakers, but that's not saying that the 76ers without Embid wouldn't be a play-in team either, even with Harden.

    And let's not forget Giannis, if he played in NY or LA, he'd be the easy favorite, I think his market hurts him as much as Jokic not really having high quality help and Embid having to deal with what seems like limitless 76er drama.

  11. #971
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Jokic is an extremely efficient player and has the vision and passing chops to get the ball to anyone, anywhere. He plays as if he's a point guard in a center's frame and can score from anywhere on the court and pulls down a ton of boards. Get him the ball near the rim and he'll skyhook it in with ease.

    Joel is a monster on both sides of the ball. He's a dominant scorer in the paint, mid-range, and perimeter. He's also the defensive anchor for the Sixers and is an imposing force at the rim. Not only does he fill the role of a traditional big but he also has the footwork and finesse of a guard. Some of his moves are eeriely similar to Kobe and Jordan despite being a 7ft+, 280 monster.

    If I was going to pick one for MVP, I'd go with Embiid for two reasons: 1) I'm a homer, not going to deny it. 2) Embiid is simply a more dominant player on both sides of the ball, especially this season. Jokic is an advanced stats king but Embiid is the first center since Shaq to win the scoring title and he plays like Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, and Dirk all rolled into one. To call a 3 point clear out/screen play for a center with a few seconds left in OT is simply absurd.

    At the end of the day, you can go with either Jokic or Embiid and not be wrong, and Giannis is right there with them. It's a big man league right now and I love it.
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  12. #972
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    Jokic is an extremely efficient player and has the vision and passing chops to get the ball to anyone, anywhere. He plays as if he's a point guard in a center's frame and can score from anywhere on the court and pulls down a ton of boards. Get him the ball near the rim and he'll skyhook it in with ease.

    Joel is a monster on both sides of the ball. He's a dominant scorer in the paint, mid-range, and perimeter. He's also the defensive anchor for the Sixers and is an imposing force at the rim. Not only does he fill the role of a traditional big but he also has the footwork and finesse of a guard. Some of his moves are eeriely similar to Kobe and Jordan despite being a 7ft+, 280 monster.

    If I was going to pick one for MVP, I'd go with Embiid for two reasons: 1) I'm a homer, not going to deny it. 2) Embiid is simply a more dominant player on both sides of the ball, especially this season. Jokic is an advanced stats king but Embiid is the first center since Shaq to win the scoring title and he plays like Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, and Dirk all rolled into one. To call a 3 point clear out/screen play for a center with a few seconds left in OT is simply absurd.

    At the end of the day, you can go with either Jokic or Embiid and not be wrong, and Giannis is right there with them. It's a big man league right now and I love it.

    If I really had to break it down between these 3:

    Offense: I think Joker is the clear winner here, I know Embiid just one scoring title, but Joker's playmaking, passing, and generalship over the floor more than make up that gap. His on/off numbers account for more than just his scoring. When you bring up Embiid's game winner, we've seen Joker make that play a few times this year, he's also made perfect read passes to create that play which is something Embiid can't do. Joker is just as dangerous as Embiid, just as hard to contain, but he has the playmaking factor which puts him ahead (this isn't to say Embiid can't make plays, he can, but he and pretty much every other player in the league minus Paul, Luka, Curry, are comparatively WNBA level vs Joker). For Giannis, I'd say he is only better when it comes to finishing at the rim... I hate to agree with Harden here, but Giannis brings a shit ton of physical talent but not as much technical talent. He scores because he is too big, too strong, too fast, doesn't get tired... dude knows his skill set and it's completely in preparation and physical ability. But when talking about Embiid who can score like Kobe and Shaq on the same possession, and for Joker who is like dealing with a 7 foot Chris Paul and 7 foot Larry Bird, in the same possession, Giannis is behind.

    Defense: Clear winner here for Embiid/Giannis. I put them at the same level, but that isn't to say Joker is far behind. Joker has become a really solid defender, he has become a Draymond style defender. He uses his excellent feel for the game and puts himself in the right spot, he also seems to have learned to use his sneaky quickness on defense, something I've only ever seen him do on offense when he does sneaky back door cuts or jump catches in the post and hits a quick spin as soon as he lands. What really puts him behind Embiid and Giannis is his athleticism. Even when he is in the right spot, he still doesn't have raw verticality of those 2. Although I would say in Jokers favor, out of 100 possessions, he finds the right spot about 80% of the time vs Embiid and Giannis who are a little closer to 75%. What Embiid and Giannis really really accel at and make them really dangerous defensively is recover. Both are really quick to realize they miss read the play and can still get a hand to where it needs to be most of the time. Joker would just be blown by at that point.

    Value/Versatility: I usually weigh this directly on what would happen if these players were on the other guys team and some intangibles like Clutch. Joker on the sixers, I think they would be a few games up, I think the Sixers are better defensively in general and Joker's superior team offense would bring them up a few games. Joker on Bucks would win the championship, easy day, that team is solid, veteran talent, and versatile. It's filled with shooters and secondary playmakers, with Joker initiating the offense it would be a championship favorite. Embiid on the Nuggets (still with their injuries) yeah I think they would be about the same still. Embiid on the Bucks is also winning the chip. And this is the sticking point for Giannis, Giannis on the Nuggets, might not be a playoff team at all. Giannis on the 76ers is a playoff team, but not as good. And really clutch wise for Giannis, he just isn't as skilled as either Joker or Embiid and that hurts his real value.

    TL;DR:
    Offense/Defense/V-V
    Embiid - 2/1/1
    Giannis - 3/1/3
    Joker - 1/3/1

    I'm tying Embiid and Giannis on Def and Embiid and Joker on Value/Versatility.

    Ratings wise I think it's a hard tie between Joker and Embiid, but I will say after giving it a lot of thought. I think I'd like to see Embiid win MVP, carrying the Sixers drama has not been easy, I'd argue he created some of that burden himself, but he definitely seems a bit more mature and not a grating teenager this year.

  13. #973
    Herald of the Titans PickleballAce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    I'm no fan of Kyrie's antics and personality off the floor, but fining him for responding to a hostile Celtics crowd seems like an uneven punishment. Short of fining the Celtics for their fans behavior... the message seems to be take the abuse and like it when you fine a player for *gasp* giving them the finger in a pretty casual manner.
    lol, nah. Fuck that two-faced Hotep cunt.

  14. #974
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Ja and the Grizzlies looking mighty vulnerable. The TWolves had a big lead early, 47 to 21 early in the 2nd, but the Grizzlies came back before half and cut that lead to 7.

    Now, though, the Minnesota lead is back up to 24.

    Normally, it might not matter as much, considering they're playing in Minnesota, but Memphis already dropped a home game, and they're facing going down 2 games to 1, and maybe leaving Minnesota down 3 to 1.

    I'd totally assumed they'd move on to the next round easily, but now I'm not so sure.


    Oh, and Devin Booker is out for 2-3 weeks, and so is Khris Middleton. Playoff time means injury time, of course. Interesting shakeups.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Figures. Tie game.

    21-0 run will do that to you.
    Last edited by PhaelixWW; 2022-04-22 at 01:42 AM.


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  15. #975
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Figures. Tie game.

    21-0 run will do that to you.
    That was ridiculous to follow on twitter. Epic collapse by the Wolves. That might shake them to the point where they just lost the series, just in that run.

  16. #976
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Welp, that just happened, lol.

    42-9 run to the last 10 seconds of the game.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

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  17. #977
    Moderator Crissi's Avatar
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    Jazz having a hard time with lukaless Mavs, so of course O'Neal goes to take out Brunson too.

    - - - Updated - - -

    which has just made the rest of the team angry rofl

  18. #978
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    Value/Versatility: I usually weigh this directly on what would happen if these players were on the other guys team and some intangibles like Clutch. Joker on the sixers, I think they would be a few games up, I think the Sixers are better defensively in general and Joker's superior team offense would bring them up a few games. Joker on Bucks would win the championship, easy day, that team is solid, veteran talent, and versatile. It's filled with shooters and secondary playmakers, with Joker initiating the offense it would be a championship favorite. Embiid on the Nuggets (still with their injuries) yeah I think they would be about the same still. Embiid on the Bucks is also winning the chip. And this is the sticking point for Giannis, Giannis on the Nuggets, might not be a playoff team at all. Giannis on the 76ers is a playoff team, but not as good. And really clutch wise for Giannis, he just isn't as skilled as either Joker or Embiid and that hurts his real value.

    TL;DR:
    Offense/Defense/V-V
    Embiid - 2/1/1
    Giannis - 3/1/3
    Joker - 1/3/1

    I'm tying Embiid and Giannis on Def and Embiid and Joker on Value/Versatility.

    Ratings wise I think it's a hard tie between Joker and Embiid, but I will say after giving it a lot of thought. I think I'd like to see Embiid win MVP, carrying the Sixers drama has not been easy, I'd argue he created some of that burden himself, but he definitely seems a bit more mature and not a grating teenager this year.
    This is one of the better breakdowns I've seen of these players during the MVP debate madness, you really nailed it here. I think it's interesting to imagine what the Sixers would look like with Jokic. The thing I've admired about his play over the past couple of years is his ability to see the floor and hit cutters in tight spots with ridiculous passes. Someone as explosive as Maxey would benefit so much from a player like him and they would vastly improve during transitions basically overnight.
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  19. #979
    The Lightbringer ProphetFlume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    76ers gonna be out in the first round, book it!
    *closes book*
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumboy View Post
    I'm not sure if you guys have noticed but sometimes I say things that are kind of dumb
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    I just like reading about the "vigorous rubbing" that might affect ball inflation.

  20. #980
    Quote Originally Posted by ProphetFlume View Post
    *closes book*
    In his defense, Doc Rivers does own 3 of the 13 blown 3-1 leads in NBA history. He's probably the best candidate to be the first to blow a 3-0. The Raptors may have them right where they want them.

    Jokes aside--I should stop clowning poor Doc. His rotations and scheme have actually been pretty sound so far in the playoffs.

    And I'll regret posting this if something terrible here actually happens.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Edit: Oof--there's why the Sixers are a second round exit. Despite getting Scott Foster'd, the Sixers kept it close until the frustration broke them. Gotta be tougher than that, even if things aren't going your way, and especially when you knew, before the game started, that you were going to get Foster'd. Especially from Embiid--even though his hand is hurt, he's gotta be more resilient than that, albeit it's just one game and he'll figure it out--everyone else maybe not though. They gave Nurse heat for getting salty at the refs, so they've gotta be resilient and deal with it when the shoe is on the other foot.
    Last edited by Espo; 2022-04-23 at 09:23 PM.

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