1. #1

    8.2 Made the Issues with Arms Worse

    I figured I'd post this because it's how I see things and hope someone can point some break in my logic that can justify me playing Arms. I've spent like 15k gold on azerite respecs back and forth between Fury and Arms testing things pre-raid and can say with some confidence that 8.2 broke Arms worse than pre-8.2. I'm not referring to DPS numbers, I'm referring to core mechanics. You could design warrior to sit there with nothing on their bars but execute, not even able to auto-attack until execute phase where they will instantly deal 40m damage and be "mid-pack", but no one would argue this is a functioning spec.

    I mean on a core mechanical level 8.2 has broken Arms worse than before in a way that can't simply be tuned around. It broke it in a way that will require 9.0 to fix and we can blame Memory of Lucid Dreams (MLD).

    1) Elevating of Test of Might (ToM) to utterly mandatory. With MLD + ToM Arms can generate over 4000 additional strength following a Colossus Smash. The DPS gains from this are so staggering that sims on the Warrior discord are showing you would drop an ilvl 420 Azerite down to a 385 in order to get ToM. Lucid Dreams + ToM has made Azerite ilvl pointless. What makes this worse is preliminary BoD raid data is showing that even with this brokenly synergistic combo, Arms is only Fury's equal. Meaning if you cannot get 3x ToM you should under no circumstances play Arms.

    2) Further eliminates flexible talent choices. MLD allows for unlimited rage to be spent which means more Anger Management (AM) and since it's unlimited, the already dominant Fervor of Battle becomes even more mandatory because it's more rage spent per GCD which means more ToM. More AM also means higher uptimes on In for the Kill. It wouldn't surprise me if even Warbreaker became mandatory due to the AM synergy. The Arms talent tree becomes a pure cookie cutter due to MLD.

    3) Drastically increased dependence on burst windows and execute. Due to the mandatory and synergistic nature of MLD + ToM outside of Colossus Smash, the single target rotation for Arms is at or below tank DPS. You are entirely beholden to small windows of time to deal damage. What makes this worse is even within these windows your damage is only 65-70% of a normal DPS. When you hit execute phase the damage synergy between MLD + ToM + Execute is so ridiculous and dramatic your sustained execute DPS compensates for underperforming dramatically the rest of the fight. It's not much of an overstatement to say aligning MLD +ToM + Execute accounts for 50% of your total output during a fight. This broken synergy still only brings Arms up to barely equal Fury. So unless the execute phase is the progression section of the fight between a kill and a wipe, Arms is the worst DPS class you could ever bring to any progression raid. This goes beyond niche into handicapped.

    The worst part is you can't just "tune" this in a hotfix. The synergy between ToM + AM + MLD + Execute is mechanically important. To fix this Blizzard would have to nerf ToM by around 25% and buff every other Arms azerite by 25% to make them viable. Execute would have to be nerfed with major compensatory buffs to overpower and mortal strike while nerfing colossus smash bonuses. To fix these issues that are complete unique to Arms would require a complete overhaul of the central damage sources that would mechanically alter the spec. Unfortunately, I think Arms is just dead/niche meme spec until 9.0 even with the 8.2 buffs.

  2. #2
    Scarab Lord Master Guns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    California
    Posts
    4,357
    Then don't play it.

    There's no sense in unrealistically sticking to a spec that's as garbage as Arms is right now. There's no hope; Fury plays better, feels better, and has better damage. (Excluding some situations) People need to stop acting like their entire identity is based around it like a fucking birthmark or something, lol.

    This isn't the first time Blizzard has just utterly fucked a spec and it won't be the last - just move on, and maybe come back to the spec when it IS playable. And no, this isn't an answer, and it doesn't solve anything. This is a video game that's based around tuning, and it's tuned off as fuck. So just stop playing it - simple.

    Teaser Trailer for a short film I wrote and am directing
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lkmagk8G4vM

  3. #3
    High Overlord
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    134
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashetaka View Post
    I figured I'd post this because it's how I see things and hope someone can point some break in my logic that can justify me playing Arms. I've spent like 15k gold on azerite respecs back and forth between Fury and Arms testing things pre-raid and can say with some confidence that 8.2 broke Arms worse than pre-8.2. I'm not referring to DPS numbers, I'm referring to core mechanics. You could design warrior to sit there with nothing on their bars but execute, not even able to auto-attack until execute phase where they will instantly deal 40m damage and be "mid-pack", but no one would argue this is a functioning spec.

    I mean on a core mechanical level 8.2 has broken Arms worse than before in a way that can't simply be tuned around. It broke it in a way that will require 9.0 to fix and we can blame Memory of Lucid Dreams (MLD).

    1) Elevating of Test of Might (ToM) to utterly mandatory. With MLD + ToM Arms can generate over 4000 additional strength following a Colossus Smash. The DPS gains from this are so staggering that sims on the Warrior discord are showing you would drop an ilvl 420 Azerite down to a 385 in order to get ToM. Lucid Dreams + ToM has made Azerite ilvl pointless. What makes this worse is preliminary BoD raid data is showing that even with this brokenly synergistic combo, Arms is only Fury's equal. Meaning if you cannot get 3x ToM you should under no circumstances play Arms.

    2) Further eliminates flexible talent choices. MLD allows for unlimited rage to be spent which means more Anger Management (AM) and since it's unlimited, the already dominant Fervor of Battle becomes even more mandatory because it's more rage spent per GCD which means more ToM. More AM also means higher uptimes on In for the Kill. It wouldn't surprise me if even Warbreaker became mandatory due to the AM synergy. The Arms talent tree becomes a pure cookie cutter due to MLD.

    3) Drastically increased dependence on burst windows and execute. Due to the mandatory and synergistic nature of MLD + ToM outside of Colossus Smash, the single target rotation for Arms is at or below tank DPS. You are entirely beholden to small windows of time to deal damage. What makes this worse is even within these windows your damage is only 65-70% of a normal DPS. When you hit execute phase the damage synergy between MLD + ToM + Execute is so ridiculous and dramatic your sustained execute DPS compensates for underperforming dramatically the rest of the fight. It's not much of an overstatement to say aligning MLD +ToM + Execute accounts for 50% of your total output during a fight. This broken synergy still only brings Arms up to barely equal Fury. So unless the execute phase is the progression section of the fight between a kill and a wipe, Arms is the worst DPS class you could ever bring to any progression raid. This goes beyond niche into handicapped.

    The worst part is you can't just "tune" this in a hotfix. The synergy between ToM + AM + MLD + Execute is mechanically important. To fix this Blizzard would have to nerf ToM by around 25% and buff every other Arms azerite by 25% to make them viable. Execute would have to be nerfed with major compensatory buffs to overpower and mortal strike while nerfing colossus smash bonuses. To fix these issues that are complete unique to Arms would require a complete overhaul of the central damage sources that would mechanically alter the spec. Unfortunately, I think Arms is just dead/niche meme spec until 9.0 even with the 8.2 buffs.
    Maybe post this in the Blizzard forums instead of the dead mmo-champion forums.

  4. #4
    Im not really sure what youre arguing for, or against. Are you upset cause the synergy mld + am + tom is too good, or or because arms still dont dont outperform fury, or cause arms become a cookiecutterspecc?

    I dunno about others, but for me atleast a big part of playing arms is the focus on just execute. I dont have an issue of the lionpart of my dmg coming from the last 20/35% of the fight. I suppose it wouldve been nice if the specc allowed other playstyles with different talent/essence/trait combos, but for me its a non-issue, arms are playing mechanically just the way i expect and want it to.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Caus View Post
    I dunno about others, but for me atleast a big part of playing arms is the focus on just execute. I dont have an issue of the lionpart of my dmg coming from the last 20/35% of the fight.
    I think it's still an issue on fights where execute phase in not long. Like in M+ for example. Yes, we have warbreaker+bladestorm, but outside that we don't offer much.

  6. #6
    With MLD and nearly infinite rage, the warbreaker dmgwindows will be up faster, and a single strike the anvil trait makes mortal strike pop alot faster aswell. I need more testing to see how i feel about it, but so far i think the dmg between warbreakerwindows are feeling alot less daunting than pre8.2.

    Im happy so far with how it feels atm and the numbers im getting, and not particularly bothered about what the sims say or suggest. Raidstatistics once Azsharas palace and season 3 m+ opens up will be more interesting to see how arms compare.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Guns View Post
    Then don't play it.

    There's no sense in unrealistically sticking to a spec that's as garbage as Arms is right now. There's no hope; Fury plays better, feels better, and has better damage. (Excluding some situations) People need to stop acting like their entire identity is based around it like a fucking birthmark or something, lol.

    This isn't the first time Blizzard has just utterly fucked a spec and it won't be the last - just move on, and maybe come back to the spec when it IS playable. And no, this isn't an answer, and it doesn't solve anything. This is a video game that's based around tuning, and it's tuned off as fuck. So just stop playing it - simple.
    Feels better and plays better is subjective as hell. No one knows how the damage will pan out until mythic releases and we start gathering data.

    Arms is playable. Get off the soap box, Jesus.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashetaka View Post
    I figured I'd post this because it's how I see things and hope someone can point some break in my logic that can justify me playing Arms. I've spent like 15k gold on azerite respecs back and forth between Fury and Arms testing things pre-raid and can say with some confidence that 8.2 broke Arms worse than pre-8.2. I'm not referring to DPS numbers, I'm referring to core mechanics. You could design warrior to sit there with nothing on their bars but execute, not even able to auto-attack until execute phase where they will instantly deal 40m damage and be "mid-pack", but no one would argue this is a functioning spec.

    I mean on a core mechanical level 8.2 has broken Arms worse than before in a way that can't simply be tuned around. It broke it in a way that will require 9.0 to fix and we can blame Memory of Lucid Dreams (MLD).

    1) Elevating of Test of Might (ToM) to utterly mandatory. With MLD + ToM Arms can generate over 4000 additional strength following a Colossus Smash. The DPS gains from this are so staggering that sims on the Warrior discord are showing you would drop an ilvl 420 Azerite down to a 385 in order to get ToM. Lucid Dreams + ToM has made Azerite ilvl pointless. What makes this worse is preliminary BoD raid data is showing that even with this brokenly synergistic combo, Arms is only Fury's equal. Meaning if you cannot get 3x ToM you should under no circumstances play Arms.

    2) Further eliminates flexible talent choices. MLD allows for unlimited rage to be spent which means more Anger Management (AM) and since it's unlimited, the already dominant Fervor of Battle becomes even more mandatory because it's more rage spent per GCD which means more ToM. More AM also means higher uptimes on In for the Kill. It wouldn't surprise me if even Warbreaker became mandatory due to the AM synergy. The Arms talent tree becomes a pure cookie cutter due to MLD.

    3) Drastically increased dependence on burst windows and execute. Due to the mandatory and synergistic nature of MLD + ToM outside of Colossus Smash, the single target rotation for Arms is at or below tank DPS. You are entirely beholden to small windows of time to deal damage. What makes this worse is even within these windows your damage is only 65-70% of a normal DPS. When you hit execute phase the damage synergy between MLD + ToM + Execute is so ridiculous and dramatic your sustained execute DPS compensates for underperforming dramatically the rest of the fight. It's not much of an overstatement to say aligning MLD +ToM + Execute accounts for 50% of your total output during a fight. This broken synergy still only brings Arms up to barely equal Fury. So unless the execute phase is the progression section of the fight between a kill and a wipe, Arms is the worst DPS class you could ever bring to any progression raid. This goes beyond niche into handicapped.

    The worst part is you can't just "tune" this in a hotfix. The synergy between ToM + AM + MLD + Execute is mechanically important. To fix this Blizzard would have to nerf ToM by around 25% and buff every other Arms azerite by 25% to make them viable. Execute would have to be nerfed with major compensatory buffs to overpower and mortal strike while nerfing colossus smash bonuses. To fix these issues that are complete unique to Arms would require a complete overhaul of the central damage sources that would mechanically alter the spec. Unfortunately, I think Arms is just dead/niche meme spec until 9.0 even with the 8.2 buffs.
    Why are you basing all of this off the few traits available, when most people don't have r3 of all the currently available traits, and there's a significant amount, including the BiS traits for arms, not yet attainable. Like, literally what.

    Why are you spending so much gold wasting your time "testing things" Your tests are a waste of time and pointless.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Deciticus View Post
    Feels better and plays better is subjective as hell. No one knows how the damage will pan out until mythic releases and we start gathering data.

    Arms is playable. Get off the soap box, Jesus.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Why are you basing all of this off the few traits available, when most people don't have r3 of all the currently available traits, and there's a significant amount, including the BiS traits for arms, not yet attainable. Like, literally what.

    Why are you spending so much gold wasting your time "testing things" Your tests are a waste of time and pointless.
    Guessing you're an Arms fanboy. Now that the raid is out I've personally simmed every set up possible for Arms and it was actually worse than what I posted before. But before I get into that Lucid Dream was available during my testing and that's the BiS Arms essence. With my current gear Arms is more than 4000 DPS worse than my Fury spec and that's due to the fact that Fury can use basically any secondary and Arms can only use Haste and Crit. I actually lose an extra 740 DPS (up to a 4700 DPS loss) if I use my 420 Azerites over my 405 Azerites because they don't have Test of Might.

    If you're honestly saying Arms is viable because with Rank 3 Essences in all 3 essence slots paired up with perfectly optimal Haste -> Crit plate gear and 460 Test of Might Azerites you equal Fury I'm sorry that's just silly. Arms becomes viable 2-3 months into the progression race? You can't be serious. Arms is on the bench, again. Time to move on.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •