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  1. #41
    Make Ice Lance more powerful/get better with mastery, bring back Deep Freeze (the damage and the stun), let us be able to get FOF procs off bosses again, make Mirror Images baseline as well as Ring of Frost, bring back Frostfire Bolt/Orb etc etc.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    for instance, playing WoW is objectively more fun than watching paint dry.
    That is still not objective my friend. You can say that it is statistically more fun, but it is not objective. What you find fun will ALWAYS be based on an opinion. No matter how many people share that opinion it is still not objective.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    That is still not objective my friend. You can say that it is statistically more fun, but it is not objective. What you find fun will ALWAYS be based on an opinion. No matter how many people share that opinion it is still not objective.
    Nice how this has turned into a discussion on the difference between objective and subjective. Here's some definitions:

    objective
    (of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

    subjective
    based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.

    As fun itself is something pertaining to a person's feelings, it can't be objective. As Kaver said, we can use the term statistically, although that sounds wack, so perhaps it's best to leave that be just like any misguided attempts to use hyperbole ("objectively better"). For the sake of respecting the poignancy and beauty of the English language.

    lol

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Lodravel View Post
    Nice how this has turned into a discussion on the difference between objective and subjective. Here's some definitions:

    objective
    (of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

    subjective
    based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.

    As fun itself is something pertaining to a person's feelings, it can't be objective. As Kaver said, we can use the term statistically, although that sounds wack, so perhaps it's best to leave that be just like any misguided attempts to use hyperbole ("objectively better"). For the sake of respecting the poignancy and beauty of the English language.

    lol
    I'll chime in that I actually enjoy NoIL Frost simply because I enjoy the nice damage spike, and the fact that Glacial Spike has a nice windup animation. Legion frost was mostly TV except for that one small timeframe before GS was nerfed.

    Hence, I find frost more fun now than Legion.

  5. #45
    Revert me back to MoP mage and i am happy, give me Combustion that works off of ignite not a 200% crit for 6 seconds we have now. Pyroblast i agree just needs to hit stupidly big for whatever the squish is, if it is back to doing 1k dps then i want a 3 second pyro to be hitting for 600-1k or something like this (not the best with numbers lol) not like what it is now. That is the fixes i want for live i want ignite to be back worked into Combustion for that being the cleave like we had in soO with alter time snap-shotting xD

    But even so that is what i want my fire to be based around.

    Frost i want to be back to fast paced mage spec with frostbolt on 1.6 second casts and ice lance not hitting for 700% more than a frost bolt etc and maybe add frost bomb kinda gameplay back with deep freeze.

    Arcane i just want it to be literally re designed but i have no idea how, burn phase > conserve phase > repeat is very bad gameplay but if that is what it has to be then just make it that with stupidly high burst and then literally nothing for 60 seconds xD


    I do agree we need a complete redesign and many more spells added to our mage classes though it is very dull playing a mage and fire is just not fun at all right now even with the big burst numbers we throw out. Having to sit in rune of power as well is also stupid gameplay, we have to stand still to cast as it is and blink just becomes irrelevant as a movement tool when you are having to stand in RoP for the max duration or your opener goes from 80k to 40k etc

    Baseline spells for all specs imo should be;
    Mirror Image
    Frostfire bolt (should return) - adds a slow and a burn dot over time
    Scorch
    Presence of Mind
    Maybe cone of cold as an extra slow type spell for the likes of Fire and Arcane which would be needed, especially for Arcane if you aren't talented for it.

    That is what i would like to see anyway, hell i would take reverting back to days of LK mould too xD

    I could rant for days but at this point i would just take anything, give me more base line spells and redesign of some of the other spells and i would be intrigued into the next expansion, even if i am starting to lose interest in the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ssjgohan4life View Post
    Make Ice Lance more powerful/get better with mastery, bring back Deep Freeze (the damage and the stun), let us be able to get FOF procs off bosses again, make Mirror Images baseline as well as Ring of Frost, bring back Frostfire Bolt/Orb etc etc.
    Glad i am not the only one who wants Frostfire bolt back!!

  6. #46
    I am Murloc! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWorkingTitle View Post
    What needs to happen is they revert Mage back to the original design from Classic to MoP, where the Mage class had a baseline arsenal of Fire/Frost/Arcane spells and then you specialized while still keeping baseline spells from all three sects of the Arcane.

    That means a Mage, regardless of specialization should have...

    Fireball
    Frostbolt
    Fireblast
    Arcane Blast
    Arcane Explosion
    Blizzard
    Ice Lance
    Flamestrike
    Cone of Cold
    Mana Bubble



    Furthermore, Spells that the Mage was given baseline by leveling up in new expansions over the years that were ripped away, only for them to give us them back as talents (complete slap in the face) need to return to being baseline. That means...

    Mirror Images
    Ring of Frost


    Then they can start thinking about giving back great spells/effects that were added throughout the years like...


    Alter Time (w/ Dot Snapshotting)
    Blazing Speed
    Flame Orb
    Cauterizing Blink
    Molten Fury (Execute mechanic)
    Frostjaw
    Deep Freeze
    Improved Counterspell
    Invocation


    They also need to bring back the glyph system and let us both customize the visuals of our spells and the effects of our spells
    The thing is, Mages were ground zero for the prioritization of spec identity over class identity, and many Mages over the years were supportive of it. If I went back far I can find threads supportive of making our aoe attacks spec specific or making our barriers spec themed. People wanted to be fire mages, or frost mages, or Arcane mages and some almost seemed to feel that using a spell from another school was somehow wrong.

    In hindsight, as Blizzard began spec pruning, this sort of approach found favour within Blizzard and led us to where we are now, with three specs with little cross pollination.

    Yet is it entirely bad? Blizzard said they went too far, and they did, but going too far does not mean they shouldn't have started. Spec locking certain abilities does make sense given that our specializations are based on schools of magic. It provides character to that spec and anchors a rotation for players to use.

    Ironically, the spells you list as being the ones that should be shared are the ones I think are the least likely to be so. You don't need fireball or arcane blast if you're a Frost mage after all.

    But it is the second part of your list where things probably will change. Greater utility and niche spells opened up to all specs, rather than being spec locked or flat out removed.

    Quote Originally Posted by meowfurion View Post
    Add Time as a spec.

    Let it be a healing and support spec for mages.

    Chronomancer needs to exist.
    There is an attractive logic to having a Chronomancer spec, particularly as it makes sense lorewise (we have encountered time based healing) and would give full expression to our ability to command time. I cannot find the interview, but years ago it was actually discussed by Blizzard as a possibility. Whilst they never explained why they didn't go ahead with it, it's not too hard to suss out.

    That while a healing spec for Mages makes sense, you'd be giving Mages an extra spec, something which the other eleven classes might have an issue with. Druids got away with it and the community accepted it because the logic behind creating Guardian was splitting it from Feral, making Druids pick tanking or melee dps rather than being able to have both in one specialization.
    In contrast, giving Mages a healing spec would be to give them a brand new role.
    The other eleven would never let it go. They would all demand a new specialization because of 'fairness', and they'd have a point. If Shamans got a tanking spec I would absolutely argue Mages should get a healing spec. Blizzard knows this, hence why an extra spec for Mages alone isn't going to happen. Every class would have to get something and I doubt Blizzard wants to dump 4 classes worth of new specializations to balance into the system.

    Of course we could scrap Arcane, roll the best parts of Arcane into Fire and Frost and then turn that into the Chronomancery tree, but I imagine the Arcane Mages would be upset.


    And for my own personal contribution. Greater Invisibility. Make it baseline and call it Invisibility. Most 'Greater' versions of existing abilities take an ability that works and makes it better. Greater Invisibility takes a broken spell and makes it work.
    If you need to balance it, give it a five minute cooldown and have a talent reduce that cooldown to what Arcane Mages have but I would like a working version of the spell rather than the hideously flawed version we have now.
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  7. #47
    Herald of the Titans TheWorkingTitle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The thing is, Mages were ground zero for the prioritization of spec identity over class identity, and many Mages over the years were supportive of it. If I went back far I can find threads supportive of making our aoe attacks spec specific or making our barriers spec themed. People wanted to be fire mages, or frost mages, or Arcane mages and some almost seemed to feel that using a spell from another school was somehow wrong.

    In hindsight, as Blizzard began spec pruning, this sort of approach found favour within Blizzard and led us to where we are now, with three specs with little cross pollination.

    Yet is it entirely bad? Blizzard said they went too far, and they did, but going too far does not mean they shouldn't have started. Spec locking certain abilities does make sense given that our specializations are based on schools of magic. It provides character to that spec and anchors a rotation for players to use.

    Ironically, the spells you list as being the ones that should be shared are the ones I think are the least likely to be so. You don't need fireball or arcane blast if you're a Frost mage after all.

    But it is the second part of your list where things probably will change. Greater utility and niche spells opened up to all specs, rather than being spec locked or flat out removed.
    Anyone wanting us to be pigeon-holed are just flat out ignorant of what the design of Mage was (for the majority of this game's history).

    My go-to analogy is this: A Master Chef does not forget how to cook all other dishes if he/she were to specialize in French Cuisine. It was the same with Mage from Classic-MoP -- A Master of the Arcane did not forget how to cast all other spells just because he/she specialized in Fire or Frost or Arcane.

    Mage needs to be reverted back to what it was, a Master of the Arcane. Not a Pyromaniac, Arcanomancer, and Icecaller like you see in the Everbloom dungeon.

    And truthfully, I never saw lots of support for relegating us to one-trick ponies. I saw people asking for a "Fire version of cone of cold" or a "Frost version of Blast Wave", but never in all my years playing have I seen any large contingent pining for us to be completely dismantled foundationally and forced into only using one type of spell. We're Mages, afterall!

    And maybe you don't pvp or do much outside of raid, but a Mage's toolkit was once incredibly diverse and allowed for lots of versatility in those other activities. When we were counterspelled/kicked/pummelled etc., we had two other sects of the Arcane to continue attacking/controlling with, whereas now when you get interrupted while casting a Fire spell, you're essentially neutered into helplessness as we have very few, if any, other spells to draw from.

    My final point being: just because you don't see a need for a Mage to have fireball or arcane blast despite specializing into Frost spells, doesn't mean there's not actually a necessity and thematically pertinent reason for us to do so.
    You think you don't, but you do

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWorkingTitle View Post
    My final point being: just because you don't see a need for a Mage to have fireball or arcane blast despite specializing into Frost spells, doesn't mean there's not actually a necessity and thematically pertinent reason for us to do so.
    Good point. Also, it often seems like it's the people that don't know the lore very well that like the idea of forsaking every spell except those of their chosen school of magic.
    Because if you know anything about magic in this fictional universe, you'd know that unlike shamans and such, mages draw *all* their powers from the arcane. The specializations of fire, frost and arcane are somewhat arbitrary lore-wise. No mage would let themselves be restricted like that.

    Also, small pet peeve, but combustion being what it is right now makes no sense to me. The "elemental conduit" shtick belongs to shamans. Mages, on the other hand, manipulate the arcane to evoke certain effects, whether they be fiery or chilly, setting *yourself* on fire doesn't fit.

    A propos lore and the arcane: Make Mana matter again. It's some bullshit that nowadays, the only ones that actually care for mana are healers and arcane. And while I get that nobody likes their DPS grinding to a halt because they're oom. Arcane is an exception because it has been specifically built around the ebb and flow of mana and it has retained tools to manage that.
    So while I don't want to go back to the days of drinking after every pull, I wouldn't mind having to watch for my mana every now and then. A good solution might be to add back a couple other spells for frost and fire that are not part of the normal rotation and cost a lot of mana. A prime example would be Mana Shield for all specs! (absorbs damage in exchange for your mana)
    That ability was thematically fitting and, depending on how it's tuned, useful as well as quite the double edged sword.
    Last edited by Lodravel; 2019-07-24 at 06:43 AM.

  9. #49
    Herald of the Titans Northem's Avatar
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    Hi guys! I have been reading all your comments carefully and I've thought that perhaps we should put all our ideas in common, creating a public Google document with all the spells and abilities we want, classifying them between shared/common spells and arcane, fire or frost spells.

    Bear in mind that I'm looking forward to receiving your ideas, opinions and requests so as to the document is complete, so don't hesitate to edit it. Here's the link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

  10. #50
    Here are the things id love to see:
    1) Alter time back
    2) Combustion spreadable
    3) Less ignite focus damage and more focus on HARD HITTING PRYOS
    4) Pheonix Flames baseline.

  11. #51
    Bloodsail Admiral Kanariya's Avatar
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    I'd like to see Ignite go back to its pre-Mastery self: 40% of your non-periodic Fire critical damage over 4 seconds. It actually felt impactful and rewarding to get an Ignite, rather than it just passively applying from all damage done.

  12. #52
    I would love to have Mists of Pandaria Arcane Mage back while keeping the current version of rune of power. Everything scaling with Mastery and Mastery increasing the damage done the more mana you have and very hard hitting casts but weaker burn phases instead of this boring spamming one button spec right now. The spec was the most fun i have ever had playing wow back in mop. Also i would love to have ice block of GCD again....

    And i would reverse nether tempest back to the version we had in mop. It has been so much fun dotting 20 targets and then seeing the fireworks the missiles were creating.
    Last edited by Poly123; 2019-08-10 at 03:48 PM.

  13. #53
    Make arcane charges work on arcane missiles. Make arcane missiles a proc again.
    I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire. I am a weapon of my Warchief's command.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread

  14. #54
    i thought rogue subtlety was supposed to be few specs to touch arcane and the other two specs. fix subtlety before giving mages attention.

  15. #55
    I am also interested in solving the problem. Thank you for your inquiry.

  16. #56
    Honestly...
    thinking more about the core problem of arcane i would change Overpowered to increasing the duration of arcane power from 10 seconds to 30 seconds ( maybe different numbers, but thats not the point ). I feel like Overpowered is currtently the core problem of the spec while it doesnt seem like it is.
    The problem is that if you have too much base damage / scaling on the spells you will end up with a version of the hellfire citadel mage 2.0. But if the damage without cooldowns is too low you have the state it currently is in: mediocre at best. But by changing the duration of arcane power to lets say 30 seconds, the damage spreads more evenly over the fight instead of beeing clustered at very small time intervals.

    This would also solve another problem arcane is currently facing: If you get stunned or have to play ANY mechanic while arcane power is up you end up doing no damage at all until it is off cd again. So movement mechanics wouldn't feel as bad as they do right now.
    Last edited by Poly123; 2019-08-13 at 11:18 PM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The thing is, Mages were ground zero for the prioritization of spec identity over class identity, and many Mages over the years were supportive of it. If I went back far I can find threads supportive of making our aoe attacks spec specific or making our barriers spec themed. People wanted to be fire mages, or frost mages, or Arcane mages and some almost seemed to feel that using a spell from another school was somehow wrong.

    In hindsight, as Blizzard began spec pruning, this sort of approach found favour within Blizzard and led us to where we are now, with three specs with little cross pollination.

    Yet is it entirely bad? Blizzard said they went too far, and they did, but going too far does not mean they shouldn't have started. Spec locking certain abilities does make sense given that our specializations are based on schools of magic. It provides character to that spec and anchors a rotation for players to use.

    Ironically, the spells you list as being the ones that should be shared are the ones I think are the least likely to be so. You don't need fireball or arcane blast if you're a Frost mage after all.

    But it is the second part of your list where things probably will change. Greater utility and niche spells opened up to all specs, rather than being spec locked or flat out removed.
    This is exactly what happened, for whatever reason Blizzard listened to a minority that wanted to be strictly one type of damage/thematic and it has hurt mages. I was never for it but probably wasn't vocal enough in arguing against it.

    For me, mages largest problem begins with talent row 45, that simply needs to go. Put Mirrors back baseline.

    Next biggest issue with talents is row 75, that is garbage for PvE. It's a PvP row and PvP already has talents.

    Legion Frost issues;

    Can't reach soft crit cap of 33.34% still and it's 8.2 with 8.2.5 around the corner.

    No proc protection - 25% chance to proc BF just isn't the truth in a specific encounter. Whenever you cast 8+ frost bolts, kiss your DPS goodbye.

    FoF Proc munching - not refunded a proc after Flurry when one is generated during BF(FB)/Flurry/IL, a 3rd charge of FoF missing, also 2 charges of FoF hurts any game play with Ray as must be certain nothing is generating before using Ray

    Finally, for all classes Blizzard needs to dump those auras that apply to every spec and properly tune individual spells. Heck I can't even find what the hell they are anymore, last I saw majority were over 10%, with several over 20%. That's just disgraceful
    .

  18. #58
    Ironically, the spells you list as being the ones that should be shared are the ones I think are the least likely to be so. You don't need fireball or arcane blast if you're a Frost mage after all.
    This was never the case originally. You absolutely did use those spells (at least in PvP). Spells used to be unique / niche in ways that mattered for gameplay purposes. As a Frost Mage you would regularly use

    Frostbolt - Main damage cast
    R1 Frostbolt - Quick snare
    Fireball - Highest damage opener
    R1 Fireball - Quick dot against stealth classes
    Scorch - Short cast damage
    Arcane Missiles - Channelled, no pushback (talented), caused pushback, followed around LOS, in some patches continued when out of range.
    Blizzard - Main AoE
    R1 Blizzard - Cheap AoE snare
    Arcane Explosion - Spammable instant cast dmg
    R1 Arcane Explosion - Cheap spammable AoE to break stealth
    R1 Flamestrike - Left the ground 'dot' (Admittedly don't recall a use for max rank flamestrike)
    Arcane Blast - Great replacement for Frostbolt when Frost was locked out. No travel time.

    These are just the damage abilities. I miss this design where you could find a use for most of the spells, rather than blizzard deciding a frost mage doesn't need any of them.

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