"At the hour of her third death, she will usher in our coming." Lets talk about this

[Super Dickmann]

I don't think it's a surprising twist but it's not a horrible one. They would be right in that she isn't Garrosh because Garrosh was just nutty and well-intentioned (for the tiny sliver of people he liked) while Sylvanas is not only more understandable but more entertaining for an angrier and more bitter playerbase. It would make a lot more narrative sense (building from Wrath) as opposed to her becoming a Kerrigan (meme complaint I don't think will happen #1) or setting N'zoth free and burning Teldrassil for secret good reasons (meme complaint I KNOW won't happen #2).

It's not a twist at all. Everything has pointed in that direction from the very start. It's only not Garrosh 2.0 if the conflation to be made is that what made the evil Warchief story so abhorrent was that Garrosh cared about the orcs whereas Sylvanas cares about whatever gives the most negative karma in whatever situation she happens to be in. She's not understandable because we're not privy to her motivation at all and "lol, old god puppet" is the oldest motivation in the WoW book.

There'll be no turn to good and there shouldn't be. But Sylvanas being an old god puppet is just as much a retread of the Mists story, just with the one interesting bell and whistle of Garrosh subverting the old god to serve the goals of the orcs gone.

[EbaumsTipster]

It's not a twist at all. Everything has pointed in that direction from the very start. It's only not Garrosh 2.0 if the conflation to be made is that what made the evil Warchief story so abhorrent was that Garrosh cared about the orcs whereas Sylvanas cares about whatever gives the most negative karma in whatever situation she happens to be in. She's not understandable because we're not privy to her motivation at all and "lol, old god puppet" is the oldest motivation in the WoW book.

There'll be no turn to good and there shouldn't be. But Sylvanas being an old god puppet is just as much a retread of the Mists story, just with the one interesting bell and whistle of Garrosh subverting the old god to serve the goals of the orcs gone.

It is a twist for some people, based on how they present her as ambiguous and how some people are insistent she has secret good intentions or somtehing. Straight forwardly, yes it isn't a twist, but similarly to how they tried to make it look like Sylvanas mayyyy have not burned TD they are keeping her in the shadows to make people wonder what she's doing and if she has a mind for good despite it all.

BFA is a retread of Mists with a different middle and a different ending, despite following a number of the same story beats. But I may be proven wrong by Tyrande being the new "DISMANTLE" after all is said and done (and maybe succeeding where Jaina previously failed) and Sylvanas will likely not be captured, I can see this not having the "happy ending" of Mists.

Regarding Sylvanas's motivations, it is 100% going to be that she saw Hell at the end of Wrath and doesn't want to die/wants to kill everyone so they serve her but why the hell they're taking their sweet ass time revealing or showing this again is beyond me.

[Dellis0991]

I still fear for Arator and his vision of Turyalon death....if some deaths do happen i just hope Arator doesn't die.

[Eosia]

I know that one and its probably because the death is the enemy off all things or something similiar. But I am not talking about why the Void is terrified by Sylvanas, I am talking about why her death would usher in their coming?

Because she can stand up to the Void. Undead cannot be corrupted by the Void as we saw from the Scourge and Ebon Blade literally living in structures made from Yogg-Saron's blood.

Go look at StarCraft II because Sylvanas is going full-Kerrigan right now. Just as we saw in Wings of Liberty, she was the only one with the power to stand up to Amon. If she died he would win and purge the universe.

[Super Dickmann]

It is a twist for some people, based on how they present her as ambiguous and how some people are insistent she has secret good intentions or somtehing. Straight forwardly, yes it isn't a twist, but similarly to how they tried to make it look like Sylvanas mayyyy have not burned TD they are keeping her in the shadows to make people wonder what she's doing and if she has a mind for good despite it all.

BFA is a retread of Mists with a different middle and a different ending, despite following a number of the same story beats. But I may be proven wrong by Tyrande being the new "DISMANTLE" after all is said and done (and maybe succeeding where Jaina previously failed) and Sylvanas will likely not be captured, I can see this not having the "happy ending" of Mists.

Regarding Sylvanas's motivations, it is 100% going to be that she saw Hell at the end of Wrath and doesn't want to die/wants to kill everyone so they serve her but why the hell they're taking their sweet ass time revealing or showing this again is beyond me.

The middle is identical, except the rebels are somehow even worse and the Alliance is somehow far more unified and forgiving of far worse atrocities with the Horde rank and file far more supportive of the Warchief. The ending will also be identical as the end goal is the unifaction, be it on a story or gameplay level.

I agree that that is her motivation, but why they're not just saying it instead of pretending that "The bad woman was actually bad" is a twist is beyond me.

[EbaumsTipster]

The middle is identical, except the rebels are somehow even worse and the Alliance is somehow far more unified and forgiving of far worse atrocities with the Horde rank and file far more supportive of the Warchief. The ending will also be identical as the end goal is the unifaction, be it on a story or gameplay level.

I agree that that is her motivation, but why they're not just saying it instead of pretending that "The bad woman was actually bad" is a twist is beyond me.

Probably because they know the second that they reveal that Sylvanas is indeed the final boss or fight of BFA that there will be a chimp out of immense scale, regardless of how much it makes sense. Maybe they'll release a story with Sylvanas talking about the hell vision again as damage control? Hopefully.

I also disagree that the ending is identical because the majority of Alliance and Horde still hated each other during Mists ending, with Varian saying "YOU BETTER WATCH OUT" at the end, whereas this time 99.9% of the Faction leaders don't like the war or/and like each other while being tired of the whole thing. There is a nuance there to the point where people honestly suspect the faction war will end forever.

The rank and file of the Horde being so evil is an interesting plot point that I'm not sure the endgame is. Is it a reason for Sylvanas to have lots of racial troops in the end? No idea.

[Super Dickmann]

Probably because they know the second that they reveal that Sylvanas is indeed the final boss or fight of BFA that there will be a chimp out of immense scale, regardless of how much it makes sense. Maybe they'll release a story with Sylvanas talking about the hell vision again as damage control? Hopefully.

I also disagree that the ending is identical because the majority of Alliance and Horde still hated each other during Mists ending, with Varian saying "YOU BETTER WATCH OUT" at the end, whereas this time 99.9% of the Faction leaders don't like the war or and like each other while being tired of the whole thing. There is a nuance there to the point where people honestly suspect the faction war will end forever.

Mists was intended to achieve the same end. It was just a more nuanced story that wasn't informed by constant, ridiculous forgiveness. Mists made sense within its own context if not if you take Cata or Wrath into account because Garrosh only represented a portion of the Horde, bad things still happened, like the Purge and at the end not all bad people were removed and the factions didn't randomly forgive each other. And even then the Alliance just letting everyone go was a copout and Garrosh having everything pinned on him was a longshot.

Compare and contrast here where the Horde has done much worse things across all races, with Sylvanas commanding popular support past the mid-point now. Why do the Alliance believe that only a minority of Hordies are bad? Why are they all so angelic and tolerant as if they were dealing with their kid forgetting to do chores instead of the killing of thousands of civilians. It's nonsense.

Mind, while there will indeed be an avalanche of salt when they reveal that the bad lady was bad, I don't think she'll be the end boss. She isn't Garrosh and that includes success and narrative focus. She's been a non-entity in her own villain batting expansion and N'zoth is well primed to be the end boss. Unless he uses her as a vessel I guess.

[EbaumsTipster]

Mind, while there will indeed be an avalanche of salt when they reveal that the bad lady was bad, I don't think she'll be the end boss. She isn't Garrosh and that includes success and narrative focus. She's been a non-entity in her own villain batting expansion and N'zoth is well primed to be the end boss. Unless he uses her as a vessel I guess.

The twist might actually that N'zoth isn't the boss of this expansion. Story wise it looks like him, but there are certain things that make me think he isn't, including the Warbringers = bosses theme, Crucible of Storm being too much like an N'zoth fight for them to do it twice, the Jaina fight looking like there will be a Horde version in the future (Sylvanas getting away), datamined post-Azshara text that implies that N'zoth doesn't actually come out after 8.2, as well as the whole MOP thing translating to a warchief boss at the end.

I think it is incredibly plausible that N'zoth is the villain carryover to 9.0 and may not even show up at 8.3 at all, or may just be a cameo.

[Super Dickmann]

The twist might actually that N'zoth isn't the boss of this expansion. Story wise it looks like him, but there are certain things that make me think he isn't, including the Warbringers = bosses theme, Crucible of Storm being too much like an N'zoth fight for them to do it twice, the Jaina fight looking like there will be a Horde version in the future (Sylvanas getting away), datamined post-Azshara text that implies that N'zoth doesn't actually come out after 8.2, as well as the whole MOP thing translating to a warchief boss at the end.

I think it is incredibly plausible that N'zoth is the villain carryover to 9.0 and may not even show up at 8.3 at all, or may just be a cameo.

I do think that killing N'zoth would be a waste in the sense that Sylvanas is already a lost cause and she deserves to at least be the focus of the expansion that exists to demolish her to bring in faction unity, but I don't think Blizzard feel the same way. I remember similar gymnastics concerning the Legion being destroyed at the end of Legion being 'too soon'. I think with the Legion, Azshara, N'zoth and the faction conflict Blizzard think they're clearing the table so the writing staff can put in new things.

[EbaumsTipster]

I do think that killing N'zoth would be a waste in the sense that Sylvanas is already a lost cause and she deserves to at least be the focus of the expansion that exists to demolish her to bring in faction unity, but I don't think Blizzard feel the same way. I remember similar gymnastics concerning the Legion being destroyed at the end of Legion being 'too soon'. I think with the Legion, Azshara, N'zoth and the faction conflict Blizzard think they're clearing the table so the writing staff can put in new things.

I think it's less about clearing the table and more about them not being convinced that N'zoth and old gods can carry an expansion on their own. Sylvanas is being built up as a villain that players want to kill much more than N'zoth right now, I see Sylvanas straight up murdering N'zoth in one hit more plausible than Sylvanas not being a big boss fight in 8.3.

We have had so many old god themed raids that they likely are going to take a little break after Azshara.

- - - Updated - - -

Adding onto this, they will likely stick to the faction war theme for one last raid because they introduced the double faction thing for Battle for Dazar'alor, and they will most definitely use that mechanic one last time before we (likely) never have a two faction raid again.

[Super Dickmann]

I think it's less about clearing the table and more about them not being convinced that N'zoth and old gods can carry an expansion on their own. Sylvanas is being built up as a villain that players want to kill much more than N'zoth right now, I see Sylvanas straight up murdering N'zoth in one hit more plausible than Sylvanas not being a big boss fight in 8.3.

We have had so many old god themed raids that they likely are going to take a little break after Azshara.

- - - Updated - - -

Adding onto this, they will likely stick to the faction war theme for one last raid because they introduced the double faction thing for Battle for Dazar'alor, and they will most definitely use that mechanic one last time before we (likely) never have a two faction raid again.

As I see it they've been careful not to oversaturate the Old God aesthetic, with only one boss and area having it yet in Crucible of Storms and that being a far cry from how Ny'alotha looks in the Azshara: Warbringers. Ion has also said we'll know who the last boss is when the cinematic comes out and I have a hard time seeing Sylvanas appear at the end of a Nazjatar raid.

Rather, Sylvanas either being part of a mini raid in 8.2.5 or absent is how I think they'll pretend this isn't just Mists 2.0.

[EbaumsTipster]

As I see it they've been careful not to oversaturate the Old God aesthetic, with only one boss and area having it yet in Crucible of Storms and that being a far cry from how Ny'alotha looks in the Azshara: Warbringers. Ion has also said we'll know who the last boss is when the cinematic comes out and I have a hard time seeing Sylvanas appear at the end of a Nazjatar raid.

Rather, Sylvanas either being part of a mini raid in 8.2.5 or absent is how I think they'll pretend this isn't just Mists 2.0.

The datamined text that implies that N'zoth doesn't come out directly after 8.2 combined with Ion's comment makes me think that N'zoth may actually namedrop her specifically as his champion (hence what all the Vol'jin mystery is building up to: I don't know who could've picked her otherwise) who will set him free. So we would know who the final boss is in the cutscene.

The text may be a misdirection or out of context but it definitely says that Azshara's master WILL rise

[Super Dickmann]

The datamined text that implies that N'zoth doesn't come out directly after 8.2 combined with Ion's comment makes me think that N'zoth may actually namedrop her specifically as his champion (hence what all the Vol'jin mystery is building up to: I don't know who could've picked her otherwise) who will set him free. So we would know who the final boss is.

That is actually a possibility, but I think you're laying too much attention on one line and ignoring its overall context. I'll put this in spoilers, even though I think most here know it.

At the end of the raid N'zoth is free, and Bob says they can't stop it, but also they have to unite fast to fight him and Sylvanas is in the way. Unless it's in the cinematic they view Sylvanas as a roadblock to N'zoth, not an accomplice, even knowing she sent them to die. That's why I'm leaning on Sylvanas either bailing/being defeated in 8.2.5 with N'zoth in 8.3

[EbaumsTipster]

That is actually a possibility, but I think you're laying too much attention on one line and ignoring its overall context. I'll put this in spoilers, even though I think most here know it.

At the end of the raid N'zoth is free, and Bob says they can't stop it, but also they have to unite fast to fight him and Sylvanas is in the way. Unless it's in the cinematic they view Sylvanas as a roadblock to N'zoth, not an accomplice, even knowing she sent them to die. That's why I'm leaning on Sylvanas either bailing/being defeated in 8.2.5 with N'zoth in 8.3

I agree that that is very likely. However I see a lot of justified and understandable asspain if Sylvanas is not a fight of some sort (maybe she could still be a fight in N'zothworld) as well as little payoff for the Baine thing, which seems to be building towards her invading some other settlement while people have their backs turned. There are rumblings of Siege of Stormwind which was foreshadowed very early on, directly stated by Sylvanas even, but this COULD be thwarted.

[Dimad]

Honestly when i heard that line in game i thought they where talking about xalatath since she has a mortal body now. In the quest line she states that she has not had a mortal body for some time. So im not thinking that its either jaina or sylvanas.

[Varodoc]

I agree that that is very likely. However I see a lot of justified and understandable asspain if Sylvanas is not a fight of some sort (maybe she could still be a fight in N'zothworld) as well as little payoff for the Baine thing, which seems to be building towards her invading some other settlement while people have their backs turned. There are rumblings of Siege of Stormwind which was foreshadowed very early on, directly stated by Sylvanas even, but this COULD be thwarted.

Stormwind does not deserve to burn to be honest. If the Alliance were badly losing the war, ok, I would agree that they deserve to pay the consequences of their weakness, but we would have won the war in 8.2 if not for Azshara. So it would be a major curveball and mockery of the Alliance playerbase if suddenly we have our capital besieged in 8.3. From winning side to "Capital besieged" side in just one patch? No, thank you very much.

[TheRevenantHero]

It'll be Sylvanas and her "death" will be some stupid thing that wasn't literal. I doubt she'll even die in 8.3 but whatever happens when she loses will bring a bunch of bad stuff to Azeroth.

8.3 Sylvanas leading to Old Gods in 9.0.

Alleria is too obvious so it isn't actually going to be her, them making her say that "hurr I died twice!!" screams of a red herring. Azeroth dying means the game ends. Azshara never died and if we're talking about her changing form she only "died" as an elf once.

It's Sylvanas.

Sylvanas has already died three times. Once when Arthas killed her, second time when she jumped off ICC, and the third time when she was killed in Gilneas. It literally CAN'T be Sylvanas.

[EbaumsTipster]

Sylvanas has already died three times. Once when Arthas killed her, second time when she jumped off ICC, and the third time when she was killed in Gilneas. It literally CAN'T be Sylvanas.

They can always pull some shit with her being a different person after she became a banshee. It likely isn't a whisper meant to be taken literally.

[taishar68]

We don't know yet, but based on the Throne of Thunder theme in 8.2 there will likely be a connection between N'zoth and Sylvanas in 8.3 the same way that Y'shaarj and Garrosh had a connection in Siege of Orgrimmar.

Sylvanas even sends Nathanos to Nazjatar to find N'zoth similarly to how Garrosh sends workers to mine the Vale to find Y'shaarj before Siege of Orgrimmar.

When is this related in game? I don’t recall it from the open, but I may have just forgot it.

[Raetary]

Alleria is too obvious

We said the same about sylvanas when teldrassil burned.
Now look what happened.