1. #4421
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    That's only the message if you only read the headline. Every article I've read said that it was a private conversation in which Bernie said he didn't think a woman could beat Trump in 2020.

    Is it Warren's fault if Bernie Bros take a headline, don't do any in-depth reading, and then froth at the mouth like the Trump supporters they supposedly so vehemently despise?

    Replacing one rabid political fanbase for another isn't something I care to do. I'm a Democrat who opposed Obama on many things - I don't want a Democratic President who I can't criticize lest his fanboys come for me like rabid dogs.
    First, that is the point, its a political attack knowing full well a lot of the public will only read the headline and plenty of news sources are going to misrepresent the issue.

    Again, you and others are being completely disingenuous about this. At this point its basically gaslighting, screaming out in pain even as you stab someone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
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  2. #4422
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Leaking out just a context free "He said a woman couldn't win" and failing to elaborate on that is merely trying to claim plausible deniability. We are all adults here with functioning brains, nobody is foolish enough to sincerely think this wasn't mean to imply he was sexist against woman. If that is what it was, Warren would state as much, but instead she wants to leave room for the imagination. More over, her trying to do this when her polls are sinking and support evaporating looks utterly craven and calculated at best, or at absolute worst its a kamikaze attack in hopes of earning the VP pick from Biden. The fact that she waited two years to be announce this proves she is full of it.
    This is politics, after all. I'm not surprised. But the part that trips me out is the reflexive support for Warren because she's the correct gender. Like, we don't really know at this point, but we believe Warren because she's a woman and we believe women. Even the moderators of the debate proceeded as if Warren was absolutely truthful.

  3. #4423
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    This is a poor understanding of the situation. The U.S. has been dragged right not because of the failure of left-leaning individuals, but because of the country's history of isolationism which led into antagonistic opposition to a country which was, on paper, left-wing (even though that government could have been more aptly labeled authoritarian or fascist). Like mentioned, we put up very progressive candidates in the 80s, and got annihilated. The hippies of the 60s literally betrayed the cause because of the deregulatory excesses of the 80s during which they all got filthy fucking rich. And it all started well before any supposed "capitulation" by the left.
    That antagonism and propagandizing exacerbates the point I was making, but it doesn't contradict it. Just presents another reason for left-wingers to abandon left-wing principles and lean increasingly rightward, by buying into that propaganda.

    Also, the hippies of the '60s was, largely, just youthful rebellion, not an actual cultural shift. That is why they "grew up" and became bankers and stockbrokers; they were just fucking around in their youth before "settling down". Not all of them; some really did believe in those views, but most of the rest were just being counter-culture for rebellion's sake, and gave it up once the fad died down and they grew out of it. It was never an actual ideological shift, in either direction, for the majority.

    We've gone with more moderate candidates in the past 30 years, and it was a necessary adjustment. The Democratic party, post Civil Rights, was on the brink of extinction as the Dixiecrats went permanently to the GOP, and the GOP painted itself as the "big tent" party.
    Those Dixiecrats were right-wingers, moving to the right-wing party. Even beyond the racism, the Democratic Party had largely been the conservative party, in the decades before the Civil Rights movement. That was the era where the two parties split back apart, with the GOP leaning hard right with the Southern Strategy, and the Democrats leaning leftward. The Dixiecrats were a relic of the old guard, and their shift had as much to do with their conservativism as anything else; the Civil Rights issue was the straw that broke the camel's back.

    We have, since Clinton in '92, been slowly pushing more and more left with each candidate. And yes, I consider Hillary to be left of her husband, if not Obama, who coincidentally helped push her left as well.
    Clinton wasn't particularly left, to begin with. Obama may have been a shift leftward from there, but I can't really see Hillary as even further left. The biggest criticism against Clinton in the 2016 election was that she was too conservative, and it turned off a lot of left-leaning Democratic voters, leading to relatively low turnout at the polls.

    My contention is always that she was fairly left (as seen by her attempt at universal health care in '94)
    Frankly, the idea that a push for universal healthcare is "fairly left", when universal healthcare is a largely nonpartisan status quo in every other developed nation on the planet, that just underscores my point. That you see it as "left-wing" at all is literally a description of the narrowly right-wing Overton Window I was talking about. To go back to my number scores; universal healthcare is a policy that sits around a 5 on that scale. You seeing it as "left" is because the American Overton Window goes from 6-10, these days, and left-wing views are off the table entirely, and even centrist positions like universal healthcare are considered unfeasibly left-wing.

    That was literally my point.

  4. #4424
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    First, that is the point, its a political attack knowing full well a lot of the public will only read the headline and plenty of news sources are going to misrepresent the issue.

    Again, you and others are being completely disingenuous about this. At this point its basically gaslighting, screaming out in pain even as you stab someone.
    I'm sorry, you're saying I'm gaslighting by not accounting for the rabid overreaction of a demagogic political base who has no depth to their analysis of anything? That even though every article about every leak about this so-called scandal was talking about a very specific assessment of political calculus, I'm the one gaslighting for Warren's surrogates who surreptitiously leaked the story to create the rabid overreaction?

    That's like saying I invited raccoons to destroy my garbage cans out because I dared to throw out my trash.


    And last I checked, you weren't a Democrat, or voting in this primary, so what exactly are you trying to debate here?

  5. #4425
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I'm sorry, you're saying I'm gaslighting by not accounting for the rabid overreaction of a demagogic political base who has no depth to their analysis of anything? That even though every article about every leak about this so-called scandal was talking about a very specific assessment of political calculus, I'm the one gaslighting for Warren's surrogates who surreptitiously leaked the story to create the rabid overreaction?

    That's like saying I invited raccoons to destroy my garbage cans out because I dared to throw out my trash.


    And last I checked, you weren't a Democrat, or voting in this primary, so what exactly are you trying to debate here?
    Gaslighting in that anyone with half a brain can read what is being done, and here you are saying "You are just crazy!" in response. It is hardly an overreaction to see someone shamelessly try to smear someone and in a low down and dirty way.

    Bernie Sanders was a Feminist when Warren was a Republican fighting for Reaganomics, more over Bernie Sanders won as a Socialist when Warren was still giving talks at the Federalist Society advocating for deregulation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    сила лунной призмы составляет - Paleo-Conservatism with TERF characteristics. Ashley Frawley and Patrick Deneen are BEA

  6. #4426
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    I refer you to Endus' post who explained quite well how this sort of thinking is one of the main reasons why US politics keep leaning right... while the rest of the modern world has moved on.
    To sum up something that was implied and apparently went largely unnoticed, my point is that a primary is a time for every voice to be heard, and put on the ballot, and put to a vote. If that means Bernie gets the most votes, so be it. Primaries are where you set the direction and the Overton Window for debate.

    The general election, that's where strategic voting comes into play. Not the primaries. If you're gonna refuse to vote for Bernie Sanders because he's "too far left", you're implicitly stating you think he's as bad an option as Trump, and thus cannot decide. If you don't think that, even if Bernie Sanders isn't who you want as President, you vote Bernie.

    Elections work through participation. Not bothering to vote is an implicit statement that you support both candidates equally. If you find one more objectionable than the other, democratic principle states you vote for the least bad option. Democracy is not about "getting your way", and throwing an ideological tantrum and refusing to participate because you didn't get the option you prefer, that's how democracies die. Because you let fringe groups control the entire election process, despite not having majority support.

  7. #4427
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    -snip-
    I don't deny that the political spectrum in the U.S. is shifted right. I deny that A) it's the fault of capitulating leftists who just kowtowed to the propaganda, and B) that the answer is pushing it in extremis in the opposite direction.

    The history of this rightward shift in the U.S. is literally historical in nature. The USSR was actually antagonistic, something that can't be denied, and by virtue of them being left wing on paper, it pushed the politics of this country right. Even Civil Rights was seen by many in this country as a Communist plot to dilute American power.

    As for the right approach - this is a fight for inches, imo. It is a consistent strain every day. I'm the most progressive person I know. But I grew up in a blue collar, rust belt upstate NY town, and if I had lived 80 miles south in PA, I'd be in the midst of swing voter territory. Most of my friends, while being blue collar union workers and thus tending towards Democratic politics, need to be gently nudged left on almost everything, as opposed to dragged kicking and screaming. If they're dragged, they're just gonna sit down and refuse, because if there's one thing that defines American culture, it's that mythos of the rugged, free individual.

  8. #4428
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Elections work through participation. Not bothering to vote is an implicit statement that you support both candidates equally. If you find one more objectionable than the other, democratic principle states you vote for the least bad option.
    A lot of people applied this principle towards plugging their nose and voting for Trump, yet many people here will tell you that the only noble thing for them to have done was not to vote.

  9. #4429
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Bernie Sanders was a Feminist when Warren was a Republican fighting for Reaganomics, more over Bernie Sanders won as a Socialist when Warren was still giving talks at the Federalist Society advocating for deregulation.
    The problem is, no one has said Bernie Sanders isn't a feminist. And to read into this leak as anything more than politicking is hilariously dumb.

    And yes, Warren was a Republican. As she tweeted last night, she still has Republican brothers. She has changed her mind. She talks about it extensively, about the idea logical appeal underpinning Reaganomics, and how she had to break free of that. Guess what - 90% of America believed full-throatedly in Reaganomics as well. Ask Walter Mondale and Michael Dukakis about it.

  10. #4430
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    The problem is, no one has said Bernie Sanders isn't a feminist. And to read into this leak as anything more than politicking is hilariously dumb.

    And yes, Warren was a Republican. As she tweeted last night, she still has Republican brothers. She has changed her mind. She talks about it extensively, about the idea logical appeal underpinning Reaganomics, and how she had to break free of that. Guess what - 90% of America believed full-throatedly in Reaganomics as well. Ask Walter Mondale and Michael Dukakis about it.
    The point of the leak was to imply via innuendo that Bernie Sanders is misogynistic and sexist against women. Notice team Warren isn't denying that innuendo, they aren't saying "Full stop, Bernie Sanders isn't sexist!" I would honestly respect team Warren if they had the guts to just go all out and say that, but hiding it, playing footsy with it and trying to have plausible deniability will putting the innuendo out there and lying by omission makes Warren look like a complete simpering coward. Hell, if it was even worth noting why wait till now if the revelation or claim wasn't a political tactic? Why not reveal two years ago when the iron was hot?
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    сила лунной призмы составляет - Paleo-Conservatism with TERF characteristics. Ashley Frawley and Patrick Deneen are BEA

  11. #4431
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I don't deny that the political spectrum in the U.S. is shifted right. I deny that A) it's the fault of capitulating leftists who just kowtowed to the propaganda, and B) that the answer is pushing it in extremis in the opposite direction.
    Ignoring A) for a moment, basically no one is calling for a push to an extreme-left point of view. My views are fairly left-wing, and they aren't "extremist". B) just isn't something anyone was proposing, to begin with.

    The history of this rightward shift in the U.S. is literally historical in nature. The USSR was actually antagonistic, something that can't be denied, and by virtue of them being left wing on paper, it pushed the politics of this country right. Even Civil Rights was seen by many in this country as a Communist plot to dilute American power.
    Yes, that's "historical", but it's a history of anti-left-wing propaganda. To frighten left-wing supporters into quieting themselves and their views, for fear of being painted as "commies" or the like.

    Again, literally my point. What was pushing the politics rightward was the unfair demonization of left-wing views, and the left-wing supporters who did not fight back against that misrepresentation, but allowed the propaganda to continue.

    Would they have won that fight? Maybe not. But they didn't even try.

    Yes, that stuff came out from the right wing, pulling the Overton Window rightward. My point is that the left wing made no attempt to counter that propaganda push, and let it continue without much contest.

    As for the right approach - this is a fight for inches, imo. It is a consistent strain every day. I'm the most progressive person I know. But I grew up in a blue collar, rust belt upstate NY town, and if I had lived 80 miles south in PA, I'd be in the midst of swing voter territory. Most of my friends, while being blue collar union workers and thus tending towards Democratic politics, need to be gently nudged left on almost everything, as opposed to dragged kicking and screaming. If they're dragged, they're just gonna sit down and refuse, because if there's one thing that defines American culture, it's that mythos of the rugged, free individual.
    Sure, I'm describing a decades-long decline as a propaganda regime dug itself ever-deeper into the American psyche. That's not gonna get fixed overnight.

    But the first step to doing so is admitting the problem exists.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    A lot of people applied this principle towards plugging their nose and voting for Trump, yet many people here will tell you that the only noble thing for them to have done was not to vote.
    It means those who did so are Trump supporters. They knew he was a lying, manipulative con man of a business magnate, with a deep history of racism and deceit, and voted for him anyway, because Hillary Clinton seemed worse.

    They get condemned because of how thoroughly ridiculous a position that is, on its lack of internal merit. They don't want to take responsibility for their own poorly-informed decision, and that's not gonna happen; they're gonna wear that.

    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    The problem is, no one has said Bernie Sanders isn't a feminist. And to read into this leak as anything more than politicking is hilariously dumb.
    It's also projection; they won't consider nuance and context, so they presume nobody else will, so any comment that can be misconstrued in the worst way must only mean that worst thing, if the guy is on "the other side". Conversely, only the best possible way, if they're on your side.

    Considering the surrounding context to determine meaning and intent simply doesn't occur to them.

  12. #4432
    Months ago Warren was my 1st choice and Sanders was 2nd. She stumbled on healthcare so I swapped them. After last night I don't think she's even in my top three.

    I know trolls (foreign and domestic) love stirring this kind of shit, but it also seems clear at this point that her campaign did this, perhaps with her complete knowledge and support. She flat out fucked up last night with how she handled it. We can't afford those kinds of mistakes in the general election.

    Although, when this first broke it felt like it had Obama's people's fingerprints all over it to try and drag down Sanders to give Warren an opening. I don't know if that had anything to do with it, but either way it backfired.

  13. #4433
    Acquittal doesn't mean exoneration


  14. #4434
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    No, not in the slightest, many of those "Bernie Bros" would have supported Clinton if she hadn't pulled DWS into her campaign after what she had pulled or many of the other stuff. And if you notice, many of those "Bernie Bros" held their nose and voted for her anyways even after all of that and in greater numbers than the "Beta Males for Hillary" did after she lost her primary.
    I did not say "Bernie Bros". I specifically said the "Bernie or Bust" people, who were the ones who either did not vote or voted for Trump once Bernie got ousted (and threaten to do so again). There is a difference, which is why I was careful in saying that it was that specific subset of Bernie supporters and not all (or even most).

    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    A big problem in the US is that it's a two-party system where each party contains many wildly different (and oft conflicting) set of values and ideas. AOC recently dismissed Biden by saying that they wouldn't be in the same party in any other country - It's completely true. The Democrats are at least 3 different parties in one now. The US parties just become alliances of groups with wildly conflicting views.

    IMO it's quite reasonable under that situation for voters to say "My candidate or bust" as the candidates are so far apart in their beliefs. If you take out political loyalty and beating Trump (which is the only thing holding the Dems together at the moment) then why should a big Bernie supporter want to vote for Biden?
    I don't dispute the first part but argue that the second part--where we ARE trying to get rid of Trump so we can at least try to put things in order and then get back on a progressive path--is why the first part is not applicable in this instance.

    If you're a Bernie supporter you should still be trying to oust Trump even if Bernie loses since Trump is the most idealogically and politically opposed to Bernie. We can argue about "how much worse" Biden or the other candidates are and there are points for either side, but what is inarguable is that Trump is worse than all of them and that trying to claw our way back from his train wreck of an administration should take priority.

  15. #4435
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    The problem is, the social issues are moral stands. It's hard to tell the Democratic establishment to just give up on rights arguments because the average American voter doesn't want to hear about "other" people. That's what happened during Civil Rights, and the Democratic party lost the South forever because of it. Should we have not done it then to consolidate that middle voter who thought blacks should still be segregated and unequal?
    I guess my basic point is that I think economic populism can work, or at least not be a hindrance, in Red States, but being socially liberal won't. If the DNC wants a sustainable majority, it's going to require some members that aren't as socially liberal, but being 'pro-corporate' shouldn't a requirement the way the DNC seems to prefer.

    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    The history of this rightward shift in the U.S. is literally historical in nature. The USSR was actually antagonistic, something that can't be denied, and by virtue of them being left wing on paper, it pushed the politics of this country right. Even Civil Rights was seen by many in this country as a Communist plot to dilute American power.
    And fast-forwarding to today, it's apparent that a) the current consensus has failed, and b) that the younger generations are clearly ready to move the country to the left. Even GoP voters are abandoning the market dogmatism that has defined that party for so long. The very election of Trump, I think, is a flashing warning sign that the country is ready for something different. And if Democrats fail to realize this, it will cost them.

    The Soviet Union is not in the political memory of Millennials. The Great Recession is. Decades of wage stagnation is. The Iraq War is. Massive costs of healthcare, education, and housing are. The GoP is sitting on a massive generation time bomb, and the DNC doesn't seem to want to seize the opportunity.
    "As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
    -H.L. Mencken, 1920

  16. #4436
    Quote Originally Posted by Deianeira View Post
    How is that corrupt? If both those areas are to elect a candidate to represent them how else would they do it so its not "corrupt" as you call it? isnt majority the way to go? Both have the majority in the areas they are running. If the 5001 people would overrule the 500001 people then that would be corrupt.
    11 groups of people. the first 10 groups each has 5,000 people, the last group has 500,000 people

    the last group has 10x the number of people of the first 10 groups.
    the first 10 groups get 10x the votes of the last one

    You call this fair?

    Or, to answer your question, the 5,001 people ARE overruling the 500,001 people. Well it would take 10,002 people to overrule the 500,001.

  17. #4437
    That last debate was a sad display. But at least they didn't go off into Spanish gibberish like previous candidates, pandering to their Latino special interests.

    I would vote for a strong woman but chump change like Warren and Amy are weak.

    Biden looks like he's barely there. Sanders and Mayor Pete are your only hope.

    - Independent voters, no partisan garbage extremists allowed

  18. #4438
    The Unstoppable Force CommunismWillWin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psygon View Post
    That last debate was a sad display. But at least they didn't go off into Spanish gibberish like previous candidates, pandering to their Latino special interests.

    I would vote for a strong woman but chump change like Warren and Amy are weak.

    Biden looks like he's barely there. Sanders and Mayor Pete are your only hope.

    - Independent voters, no partisan garbage extremists allowed
    Ah, yes, the same guy who worked for McKinsey and who wants to sent troops to mexico. He is perfect for US interests.
    ...No sarcasm, its just that US interests tend to be a negative for the average American and the rest of the world.
    Conservatism and its off-shoots are the most rotten idealogies to ever exist in human history.
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  19. #4439
    Quote Originally Posted by shimerra View Post
    @Rochana

    You baboons can support whoever you want. Not what I was calling you out on at all but i'm not surprised it's what you all glommed onto. Bernie's gonna be dog shit when it comes to actually being a president who can push through his policy advancements and 90% of what he can do using his powers as president most of the other candidates are going to do as well. Obama couldn't even push through a government option over blue dog democrats. Bernie's shit's gonna be dead in the water because he's showing he'll love his bully pullpit but have all the skills to negotiate with congress as a wet paper towel has to put out a high rise fire.


    I'm talking about your stupid wa wa my guy lost he should run 3rd party bit. That will objectively only help Trump and if you're fine with providing Trump the single greatest advantage you can possibly given because you're that dumb well I guess that's your right. However, don't pretend that level of stupidity has anything to do with not "supporting" someone who doesn't care about them when you're asking for the single greatest thing the person who cares about you the least needs to get an easy win. Don't support the DNC candidate if it's not Bernie, that is your insanely derpy right to shoot yourself in the foot by giving Trump an extra leg up. But don't double down on your stupidity by thinking him running 3rd party is anything but supporting Trump in practice.
    Since you hate me just as much as Trump supporters do, why should I vote for your candidate?

    In France, the Trump equivalent was defeated by Macron. Macron seems like he is far more dangerous than Le Pen ever would be. Right wing (yellow vests) and left wing (unionists) working class people have joined together in a quite long major protest against his policies.

    According to Skroe and Cubby, Biden should be elected to follow the same path with similar significant increases in defense spending, and similar significant cuts to Medicare and Social Security. If we are lucky, this would at least unite left and right in a fairly short period of time.

    The libertarian party has taken over the US left as an anti-war party. The democrats are not going to be voting through any kind of government social programs such as Medicare for All anyways, so this is not an advantage that democrats have over libertarians. And Obama cracked down hard on whistle blowers and loosened up regulations so that fracking could take off in this country. Once again no reason to prefer democrats to libertarians.

    I have resigned myself to Trump winning reelection. And I see no reason to try to get Biden to replace him. Biden could very well be worse.

  20. #4440
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega10 View Post
    Since you hate me just as much as Trump supporters do, why should I vote for your candidate?

    In France, the Trump equivalent was defeated by Macron. Macron seems like he is far more dangerous than Le Pen ever would be. Right wing (yellow vests) and left wing (unionists) working class people have joined together in a quite long major protest against his policies.

    According to Skroe and Cubby, Biden should be elected to follow the same path with similar significant increases in defense spending, and similar significant cuts to Medicare and Social Security. If we are lucky, this would at least unite left and right in a fairly short period of time.

    The libertarian party has taken over the US left as an anti-war party. The democrats are not going to be voting through any kind of government social programs such as Medicare for All anyways, so this is not an advantage that democrats have over libertarians. And Obama cracked down hard on whistle blowers and loosened up regulations so that fracking could take off in this country. Once again no reason to prefer democrats to libertarians.

    I have resigned myself to Trump winning reelection. And I see no reason to try to get Biden to replace him. Biden could very well be worse.
    Who said I hate you? Also who said Biden is my candidate? I actually supported Bernie over Hillary but I wasn't stupid enough to stamp and scream and cry when Bernie lost because of his mistakes/not having enough support. I'll say it again Obama had a stronger Hillary to beat and more baggage than Bernie and won because he campaigned smart. Bernie had a weaker beleaguered Hillary bogged down by Benghazi and emails and still lost. Bernie had a field that was drained of most democratic competition because of Hillary being such a dominant force(people forget in 2014 she was polling as by far the most popular possible presidential candidate) that the money and talent flocked to her and left people like Warren and Biden screwed before they event started. Not anything shady just the nature of relationships and people. Bernie meanwhile had always thrived on independent financing outside the party and used that empty field to give himself a name in a way he wouldn't have. If today's field had happened in 2016 Bernie would have been crushed if he even appeared at all. I just don't have to lie to myself about some grand if only not for DWS or Hillary Bernie would be president nonsense and can easily find the faults in his campaign as well as the fact that legislatively speaking he wont be getting much done as far as his platform goes whether I like it or not.

    But don't get all butthurt when you do something stupid and someone calls it stupid. If you're stupid enough to think Biden's worse cool that's your right. It doesn't remotely make it objectively true and I'm going to call your stupid choice for what it is. Stupid. Like Endus said vote for you who want in the primary. But telling Bernie to run 3rd party like they did is objectively stupid and handing a free win to Trump. And if you support Bernie you should definitely not want Trump even if it means someone you're not excited about unless...... you're stupid. And it is particularly stupid to try and claim that any current DNC candidate is not a better candidate than Trump for anyone who claims to be left wing/liberal.

    Your stance seems to be everyone sucks which is fine and you're entitled to it. Biden's not a radical change but even if you hate him the simple fact that Republicans will almost assuredly control the senate even if Biden was president would mean you'd have a president much more likely to enact left friendly( i'm going to assume you're left based on your comments) policies and not enact all the most terrible of the right wing policies. Positive shift towards the "Bernie side" . It would also stop the absolute deluge of conservative Judges getting nominated while Republicans block all of Biden's. Yet another positive shift towards the "bernie side". Essentially no action vs what is a bad action. I'd say that's another solid improvement there. The list goes on. While I don't know or care who you support if you claim it is anyone near Bernie's ideology you are an absolute idiot if you think Biden isn't an improvement over Trump. And as Endus said vote your heart in the primary but if you choose to abstain in the general you're saying Trump is just fine.

    But don't misunderstand the point I was actually trying to make which is people who think Trump is bad and claim to support Bernie Sanders but think a single member of the democratic field is just some terrible pill they cannot swallow except him and Bernie should run 3rd party is a moron. Because you're not helping yourself, you're not helping Bernie, but you are helping Trump who will almost assuredly be given an easy win because of it and nothing else. Bernie was smart and threw his weight behind Hillary because he realized Trump is vastly worse than Hillary ever would be. I highly doubt he liked he he doesn't seem to much care for the DNC as a whole. But he wasn't stupid like many of his supporters are determined to be which is not unlike Trump's.

    There's a long list of fixes to get my ideal system. Breaking the back of FPTP and implementing something like a ranked choice system. But until those fixes are made 3rd party runs by the guy you like are stupid unless you want to give the candidate you would by inference like less a better chance to win.
    Last edited by shimerra; 2020-01-16 at 12:32 AM.
    “Logic: The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.”
    "Conservative, n: A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others."
    Ambrose Bierce
    The Bird of Hermes Is My Name, Eating My Wings To Make Me Tame.

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