1. #4721
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Oh no, I can't believe the candidates are competing against each other
    It boggles my mind to this day that people don't understand what a primary is all about. These candidates are not "friends". They cannot all win. They are not the same. Not everybody believes beating Trump should be the #1 goal and nothing else matters.

    Did everyone have their minds erased from politics prior to 2008? Hillary and Obama ran ruthless campaigns against one another. They didn't go up to the stage and say "just pick a name out of the hat, they're all the same anyways - hope it's mine tho! ".

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's the adopting and abandoning the Democratic Party to further his own personal political goals that I find most distasteful. It's cynical and manipulative and selfish. He's willing to use the Democrats to gain political advantage, but he's not willing to be a Democrat outside of that political race, because actually playing ball with the Democratic platform isn't actually what he's interested in.

    And as for the "swarm of rabid locust people" who blindly support Sanders, as Slacker76 described them; they're the Democratic Tea Party. How'd appealing to that base work out for the GOP? That they stayed home in 2016 because they preferred Trump to Hillary Clinton is everything you need to know about them, and how little they actually support Bernie's views.
    What are you talking about? His own personal political goals? What do you think the rest of the platform are trying to further? Of course he is trying to further his political goals, he believes in a certain vision of this country and wants to make it happen. It just so happens that many people also believe in this vision too. How else would he have gotten this far otherwise?

    And using the democratic party is the only way to do this. Who cares if he's not a Democrat? That's a GOOD thing! Especially in the primary, because being a stooge to the modern Democratic party operatus aka one of the most dogshit brands on the face of the earth, will only expand his appeal. Where do you think all of those Tulsi / Yang / Marianne Williamson supporters are going to flock to, or the disaffected Obama voters who hate what the Democratic party has become? Hint hint, it's not Biden / Warren / Pete. Bernie is the only candidate up there who can not only bring in the usual suspects of the Dems, but also expand the base to those people, working class voters, and young people.

    Bernie understands that politics is about power and any sort of movement that he needs to create starts from the very top, by showing people that "tea party" democrats are a force to be reckoned with. The only way to change the Democratic party is from the inside, not the outside, and nobody except Sanders brings a vision like his to the table.

    Additionally, nobody seems to understand that a Sanders presidency is not about passing bills or legislation - of course most of the things he's proposing are probably not going to happen, but these same exact challenges face all the other candidates. Sanders will use the presidency to remain focused on building a coalition and using that to primary Democrats that don't support his agenda and use things like the budget reconciliation act with the support of his vp to get Medicare for all. A Sanders presidency is more about building a Democratic party for the future, not desperately clinging to a the receding horizon of centrism and 3rd way politics.

    The republicans are not going to reach across the isle no matter what. It's not "unfair" or "illegal" that they don't do this - that's just how they operate. It's completely within their jurisdiction and good on them for being able to have ideals and plans and being able to use the power that they have cultivated to do this. The Democrats could learn a lot from them - bowing down to Republicans before you're even in office or before anything is on the table helps nobody. And guess what? Most people recognize this. Which is why people are angry when the dems tell us "hey that thing you know you want, that helps you and a significant part of the country? Sorry, but you just don't understand politics, we can never get this passed in congress" - which is obvious, so you should be trying to get put the same position of the republicans!
    Last edited by infinitemeridian; 2020-01-19 at 01:15 PM.

  2. #4722
    Quote Originally Posted by infinitemeridian View Post
    It boggles my mind to this day that people don't understand what a primary is all about. These candidates are not "friends". They cannot all win. They are not the same. Not everybody believes beating Trump should be the #1 goal and nothing else matters.

    Did everyone have their minds erased from politics prior to 2008? Hillary and Obama ran ruthless campaigns against one another. They didn't go up to the stage and say "just pick a name out of the hat, they're all the same anyways - hope it's mine tho! ".



    What are you talking about? His own personal political goals? What do you think the rest of the platform are trying to further? Of course he is trying to further his political goals, he believes in a certain vision of this country and wants to make it happen. It just so happens that many people also believe in this vision too. How else would he have gotten this far otherwise?

    And using the democratic party is the only way to do this. Who cares if he's not a Democrat? That's a GOOD thing! Especially in the primary, because being a stooge to the modern Democratic party operatus aka one of the most dogshit brands on the face of the earth, will only expand his appeal. Where do you think all of those Tulsi / Yang / Marianne Williamson supporters are going to flock to, or the disaffected Obama voters who hate what the Democratic party has become? Hint hint, it's not Biden / Warren / Pete. Bernie is the only candidate up there who can not only bring in the usual suspects of the Dems, but also expand the base to those people, working class voters, and young people.

    Bernie understands that politics is about power and any sort of movement that he needs to create starts from the very top, by showing people that "tea party" democrats are a force to be reckoned with. The only way to change the Democratic party is from the inside, not the outside, and nobody except Sanders brings a vision like his to the table.

    Additionally, nobody seems to understand that a Sanders presidency is not about passing bills or legislation - of course most of the things he's proposing are probably not going to happen, but these same exact challenges face all the other candidates. Sanders will use the presidency to remain focused on building a coalition and using that to primary Democrats that don't support his agenda and use things like the budget reconciliation act with the support of his vp to get Medicare for all. A Sanders presidency is more about building a Democratic party for the future, not desperately clinging to a the receding horizon of centrism and 3rd way politics.

    The republicans are not going to reach across the isle no matter what. It's not "unfair" or "illegal" that they don't do this - that's just how they operate. It's completely within their jurisdiction and good on them for being able to have ideals and plans and being able to use the power that they have cultivated to do this. The Democrats could learn a lot from them - bowing down to Republicans before you're even in office or before anything is on the table helps nobody.
    So the point of a Sanders presidency is to purge anyone from the party that doesnt agree with him

    Very cool and noble -_-
    Your problem is that you’re more concerned about being precisely, factually, and semantically correct than about being morally right.

  3. #4723
    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    So the point of a Sanders presidency is to purge anyone from the party that doesnt agree with him

    Very cool and noble -_-
    Now you're starting to get it!

  4. #4724
    Banned CommunismWillWin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    At least he lives in the US.

    You are some rando European that somehow is obsessed with Bernie XD
    Coming from the guy that used to pretend to live in Colombia.

    In case you forgot, leftist politics place a lot of importance on internationalism.
    Last edited by CommunismWillWin; 2020-01-19 at 01:41 PM.

  5. #4725
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    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    So the point of a Sanders presidency is to purge anyone from the party that doesnt agree with him

    Very cool and noble -_-
    Yes, getting in Reps and Senators that will actually do what the people want them to is quite noble. Unless you're fine with the current Democrat brand of spinelessness and "centrism" that leads to the GOP running roughshod over them.

  6. #4726
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinitemeridian View Post
    What are you talking about? His own personal political goals?
    As independent from his platform. His desire to advance his career, his desire to be President, his desire to end his career on the highest of notes, etc. Sorry that wasn't more clear.

    I don't see what Sanders is doing as an attempt to further his platform. It's an attempt to further his personal career.

  7. #4727
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    As independent from his platform. His desire to advance his career, his desire to be President, his desire to end his career on the highest of notes, etc. Sorry that wasn't more clear.

    I don't see what Sanders is doing as an attempt to further his platform. It's an attempt to further his personal career.
    I'm curious as to how you would quantify such a thing. How could he convince you he's running to further his platform and not his career?

  8. #4728
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinitemeridian View Post
    I'm curious as to how you would quantify such a thing. How could he convince you he's running to further his platform and not his career?
    It isn't quantifiable, it's how his conduct appears to me. His choices seem more focused on self-aggrandizement than in achieving lasting progress in the nation. That he refuses to work together with Democrats save for when he finds them useful to his personal advancement is a key part of that evidence.

    Like I said; it wasn't the first time he did so. It's that he immediately abandoned them once he no longer had a shot at the Presidency, and then joined right up again in the next election.

  9. #4729
    Pandaren Monk Karrotlord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It isn't quantifiable, it's how his conduct appears to me. His choices seem more focused on self-aggrandizement than in achieving lasting progress in the nation. That he refuses to work together with Democrats save for when he finds them useful to his personal advancement is a key part of that evidence.

    Like I said; it wasn't the first time he did so. It's that he immediately abandoned them once he no longer had a shot at the Presidency, and then joined right up again in the next election.
    Because 3rd party candidates get nowhere during the general election except spoiling it for the other candidate that they usually agree with.

  10. #4730
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karrotlord View Post
    Because 3rd party candidates get nowhere during the general election except spoiling it for the other candidate that they usually agree with.
    I'm not disputing that.

    My point remains that he's using the Democrats as a stepladder to the Presidency, because their policies don't have any means to prevent him doing so, even though he isn't a Democrat and won't remain a Democrat if he doesn't with the nomination. That's cynical and manipulative, and that's why I dislike him.

  11. #4731
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That's exactly it.

    I was pretty pro-Bernie in the run-up to 2016; I thought he'd decided to work to reform the Democrats from within, rather than being an Independent. And then he lost the primary, and stepped out, again. Fuck, maybe he was bent out of shape, fine. But then he joins again for 2020? That's when I entered "fuck you, Bernie Sanders" territory.

    It has nothing to do with his politics, which I'm largely in favor of. It's entirely down to his poor character, from my point of view.
    I remember back then, after the election, they tried to give him a token position with no power and gave him just enough representation to be overruled on any of it and mainly just hounded him for his donor list.

    And we already know why he keeps joining with Democrats when it is time for the primaries and such, because they are the most like him and he doesn't want to poach votes running 3rd party. So he joined and he wins, then he goes back to his normal. If he lost and I would expect him to not run at all that time.

    If we had viable 3rd parties, then he wouldn't need to do that. But, from what I recall during that time, they weren't really trying to give him power or adopt his stuff, they were trying to placate him and the main push for his stuff now isn't coming from the party even now, it is coming from the voters and many of the candidates who are running forcing the issues.
    Last edited by Fugus; 2020-01-19 at 06:44 PM.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
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  12. #4732
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I do remember asking during the 2016 primaries why Bernie was running in the Democratic primaries.
    Because Warren opted not to, and he thought Hillary needed a challenge from the left
    "As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
    -H.L. Mencken, 1920

  13. #4733
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    This is kinda mystifying, especially considering there's the actually true black mark of Biden being instrumental in making it impossible to discharge student debt through bankruptcy.
    Did Biden really do that? Re student debt discharge?
    No one is above the law!

  14. #4734
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Did Biden really do that? Re student debt discharge?
    Yeah. He represented a lot of banks/credit card companies in Delaware, America’s corporate HQ. In fact, the first clash between Warren and Biden was long before Warren came to the Senate, and it was over the bankruptcy bill that Biden had been pushing for a long time. Warren got Clinton to veto it, but it was pushed again and passed under Bush.
    "As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
    -H.L. Mencken, 1920

  15. #4735
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Did Biden really do that? Re student debt discharge?
    Yep. Biden was instrumental in getting that legislation passed.

    In 10 weeks’ time Joe Biden will lay “Joe’s vision for America” at the feet of Iowa’s caucus-goers in the hope that the first voters in the Democratic presidential race will put him on the road to the White House.

    Among his promises is that he will fix the student loan crisis saddling 45 million Americans with crippling debt now totalling a staggering $1.5tn. One idea is to allow people struggling to repay private student loans owed to banks and credit card companies to discharge them in bankruptcy.

    The pledge is one of the most striking policies on offer from Democratic candidates in the 2020 race, given how the problem Biden now proposes to resolve came about in the first place. Private student loans were largely stripped of bankruptcy protections in 2005 in a congressional move that had the devastating impact of tripling such debt over a decade and locking in millions of Americans to years of grueling repayments.

    The Republican-led bill tightened the bankruptcy code, unleashing a huge giveaway to lenders at the expense of indebted student borrowers. At the time it faced vociferous opposition from 25 Democrats in the US Senate.

    But it passed anyway, with 18 Democratic senators breaking ranks and casting their vote in favor of the bill. Of those 18, one politician stood out as an especially enthusiastic champion of the credit companies who, as it happens, had given him hundreds of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions – Joe Biden.
    Little Caesar's: It's hot and it's ready!
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    Little Caesar's: It's HOT. And it's READY.

  16. #4736
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    because their policies don't have any means to prevent him doing so
    Indeed. Thank goodness. Because shitty 2 party system is shitty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    even though he isn't a Democrat and won't remain a Democrat if he doesn't with the nomination.
    I can't possibly bring myself to care. Tribalism is garbage and the DNC and RNC are garbage too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That's cynical and manipulative, and that's why I dislike him.
    I would have went with pragmatic and intelligent, but to each their own.

  17. #4737
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I don't see what Sanders is doing as an attempt to further his platform. It's an attempt to further his personal career.
    ...the dude's 78 years old and a millionaire several times over. You really think, at that age, career moves/evolution is his motivation? o_O

    We are talking about the same guy who was getting arrested in 1963 for marching in the Black Rights march, right?
    Last edited by mvaliz; 2020-01-20 at 01:42 AM.

  18. #4738
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I'm not disputing that.

    My point remains that he's using the Democrats as a stepladder to the Presidency, because their policies don't have any means to prevent him doing so, even though he isn't a Democrat and won't remain a Democrat if he doesn't with the nomination. That's cynical and manipulative, and that's why I dislike him.
    By that measure everyone is an opportunist, i look at like this. I only work for my current employer as a way to move up an ever climbing ladder and will gladly relocate/change jobs at the drop of a hat as i am only here due to financial reasons which if i can find a way to make more money in a easier job i will take it as i am only loyal to myself. I see no problem with this as it is common in the corporate world and by your standards once a Republican always a Republican etc. And for the record i am voting purely based on healthcare reasons alone ( this is why i still own own both homes in Wyoming ) anything else is secondary to me from global standing to military issues to even basic economic issues.

  19. #4739
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    By that measure everyone is an opportunist, i look at like this. I only work for my current employer as a way to move up an ever climbing ladder and will gladly relocate/change jobs at the drop of a hat as i am only here due to financial reasons which if i can find a way to make more money in a easier job i will take it as i am only loyal to myself. I see no problem with this as it is common in the corporate world and by your standards once a Republican always a Republican etc. And for the record i am voting purely based on healthcare reasons alone ( this is why i still own own both homes in Wyoming ) anything else is secondary to me from global standing to military issues to even basic economic issues.
    Here's the difference.

    Everyone else isn't claiming some form of ideological purity. Sanders' supporters are.
    Little Caesar's: It's hot and it's ready!
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    Little Caesar's: It's HOT. And it's READY.

  20. #4740
    Quote Originally Posted by mvaliz View Post
    ...the dude's 78 years old and a millionaire several times over. You really think, at that age, career moves/evolution is his motivation? o_O

    We are talking about the same guy who was getting arrested in 1963 for marching in the Black Rights march, right?
    No, he's not a millionaire several times over. He's worth around $2M, much of that from book sales.

    None of this is to further his career though. He's fighting for the same stuff he's been fighting for since he got into politics.
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    100:1 odds that he wont
    Quote Originally Posted by freefolk View Post
    Okay. I'll stop sharing my views.

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